Please don't keep support items this way.

MickuPgBz·Nov 20, 2019·109 votes·20,498 views

There's never been a less rewarding mechanic than leveling up your support item twice to then simply lose your gold generation. Why Riot?

137 Comments

VentiraNov 20, 201936 votes

Cuz apparently the gp/10 for Tier 3 is roughly equal to the amount of gold generated from the old support items, in mid-game/later, when players usually completed the old t3's. (which makes sense, after a certain point in the game relic shield users were not getting execute gold anymore.)

It's also worth remembering that supports do have a grand total of 1500 freed up gold too.

ProfDrDeathNov 20, 201918 votes

This.

Rarely (and I mean, only in 50+ min games) did the gold you get from your support item exceed 2400 gold. That means that, in almost any case, new support items give you more gold to play with than before.

AzurereaperNov 20, 201912 votes

Yet at its core it makes the supports game feel like shit. Like passive supports are hit the hardest by these changes and these items forces passive supports to play aggressive which in turn gets either them or their lane partner killed.

GinoSoldierNov 21, 20194 votes

I agree that it gives a similar amount of gold as before, in the end. It's important to remember. But yes, absolutely YES does it make supports feel like absolute shit for having no significant income aside from takedowns afterwards. Not only that, but players will rage at any support swiping a wave for wasting gold whether or not they really are because nobody can see when the debuff begins, and supports who do get out of their way to catch a wave crashing on a tower might just find out that it was barely worth their time at all!

Grouchy PoroNov 21, 20193 votes

more gold not similar

WTBeGirl100EUhrNov 21, 201912 votes

Or you just buy the relic shield versions?

ProfDrDeathNov 21, 20195 votes

This. Relic Shield Line is only 20 AP less than Spellthief's Line in the end, but with double the HP.

GonahtanuGepardiNov 21, 20194 votes

There is literally no such thing as a passive support. There are bad players that play certain supports passively but that's not how they are supposed to be played. I bet the example supports that come to your mind are janna and soraka but they are far from passive.

HsofthNov 21, 20191 votes

Just because you play aggro doesn't mean everyone must. A soraka is more useful if she has enough HP to heal you then if she loses half her HP because she tried to poke vs a Pyke. A janna only has 2 damage abilities 1 having a long CD and the other lowering her MS while on CD. While they can be played aggro they aren't forced to and often are better not to in this burst meta.

GonahtanuGepardiNov 22, 20195 votes

Just because you play aggro doesn't mean everyone must.

No, everyone must. It's not about how i want to play. It's about what's optimal. Playing passively is always the wrong choice (as a baseline choice, ofc if you are already behind 0-6 then you clearly can't play aggro anymore).

A soraka is more useful if she has enough HP to heal you then if she loses half her HP because she tried to poke vs a Pyke.

And she is much more useful if she pokes the enemy down so they can't fight you than jsut trying to be a heal bot, never winning lane and getting bursted down because ignite makes her useless in short fights and all-ins. And pyke is a poor example because he can never catch soraka.

A janna only has 2 damage abilities 1 having a long CD and the other lowering her MS while on CD.

She has basic attacks (i know low elo players don't understand the strength of basic attacks from a support in the early game) and she does have those abilities.

While they can be played aggro they aren't forced to and often are better not to in this burst meta.

Wrong. They are forced to if you look to play optimally (you can only argue about game balance or champion strength by looking at what is optimal, not how you want to play something) and it's always better to play them aggressively whenever possible. And that "burst meta" is not a thing, especially in the bot lane. It's a poor excuse.

Here is a question for you: would you play janna passively or aggressively into leona?

Grouchy PoroNov 21, 20192 votes

it takes 60 minutes with the old passive to even get 1000 new change saves you 1100 basically asap

ModAcademy KaynNov 21, 20195 votes

I was wondering this too, but neat to hear that it's roughly the same.

VentiraNov 21, 20197 votes

They Say it's roughly the same. But is it really? Find out next time on League of LegendZ!

4EEBNov 21, 20195 votes

The 1500 saved is offset by the garbage stats you get from the new support items which only work for optimistically 25% of the support champions, and tier 3 gives you 3g/10 seconds while a fully upgraded old relic shield gave you a minion every 20 seconds

VentiraNov 21, 20192 votes

If you could manage to still last hit, at that point, and believe me, it was fuckign impossible to last hit at that point, so the minion was pointless.

4EEBNov 21, 20193 votes

Yeah but a fully upgraded old relic shield gave you 1g/10sec more than the new one. and old relic shield could kill a melee minion at about 80% hp late game. New support items are basically a way to make a support a minion who is sometimes able to CC the enemy

MAGA MAN X 2020Nov 21, 201911 votes

There is no way this is true. 3 G / 10 = 18 G per minute. One cannon minion with Targons is triple that value. Supports have been nerfed and nerfed hard. It feels like shit to play them now.

VentiraNov 21, 20193 votes

It's really tough to say, cuz in my last game as Braum that ran 34 minutes, and I was almost full build at that point. I did have 27 assists by the end, though.

I am Bardo BardNov 21, 20195 votes

{quoted}

It's really tough to say, cuz in my last game as Braum that ran 34 minutes, and I was almost full build at that point. I did have 27 assists by the end, though.

Why would you post such answer when you basically make it void in the second sentence. If you have 27 assist in 34 minutes, it was mostly a stomp and gold is not a problem then.

GonahtanuGepardiNov 21, 20192 votes

Well you aren't supposed to be afk as a support and you are supposed to have high participation.

WTBeGirl100EUhrNov 22, 20192 votes

You get a cannon minion every 30s late game and every minute prior to that. If every 30s you're getting 3x what you get every 10s rn that would be tuned correctly? You don't get to kill every cannon minion because your team are assholes most of the time.

Lord DesertNov 21, 20195 votes

What in the world are you talking about? The upgrade to 3g /10s is not even close to the old rates at Tier3 items! Its not even in the same ballpark! Ontop overall gold gen being slower in general. (As a quick example you now get +12g/minute more now, but a 4 charge relic could give you 360 gold.... for just 1 fully stacked relic! And you will still get more charged off later! To get 360g from the "improved" gold/10s you need to wait 30mins....... Often games dont even last that long....)

Heres some detailed math for the relic line, if you want to understand what these changes will bring: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/general-discussion/KYT7n33y-lets-fix-the-new-support-items-for-riot-starting-with-the-new-relic-line?comment=0001

Now your (less) efficent gold gen is capped at 1000g, you lost important stats that you need and have to buy now with your "freed up gold", and support were behind every other role by ~3000g overall, so even if the supps safed 1400g, why was it nessesacry to completely remove their lategame income!? They dont get kills, they dont get minions, they dont get solo assists or solo objectivs and +2g/10s is a free pink ward every ~6 minutes....

The idea of free upgrades is good, but how they did it is a catastrophy.

GonahtanuGepardiNov 21, 20192 votes

a 4 charge relic could give you 360 gold.... for just 1 fully stacked relic!

Only if you use all of the stacks on cannons but everyone knows that didn't happen in actual games. Riot does have stats that they can use. People weren't using gold items optimally anyway. Let's use janna as an example. She used item 3312 . However, she didn't go around using zephyr on enemies and basic attacks whenever she had stacks available. People simply didn't use the gold items as much in the late game as during laning. That's just a fact.

Lord DesertNov 21, 20193 votes

Yes, I completely agree that the gold items werent used to full efficency, but this was just an example on how much gold you could get out of only 1(!) fully stacked relic...

If we say you get 3 melees and the siege minion its 153g ( = 21g*3 + 90g). From only 1 full stacked and not optimaly used relic, you need 13mins ingame time with the +2g/10s.... Do you see why the +2g/10s is STILL a ridicouls joke compared to the passive? And you get 4 charges every 80 seconds....

The item 3312 had a 2g/10s on it, you we just got a +1g/10s = 6g/minute from the "buff"... And you got 66g from all 3 stacks. Thats 11 minutes worth of time if we get +1g/10s only....

And "That's just a fact.".......

So I hope you can see now why this is a COMPLETE GUTTING of any non-assassin/non-killmage "supports" economy in the lategame (meaning after 25+mins...). And we are talking about a role, that has statistically 3000g less than any other role at the end of a game. Any questions or doubts left?

GonahtanuGepardiNov 21, 20192 votes

Do you see why the +2g/10s is STILL a ridicouls joke compared to the passive?

But that's not where the gold comes from. It comes from not needing to use gold to upgrade the gold item and the gold item having better stats than previously (so the value of the item goes up). Not only do you save gold, but you also get stats that are worth gold for free

If you calculate the saved gold and the amount you get from the item, it exceeds (or is at least equal) the old gold items for the majority of the game. The game has to go to ultra late before it starts to hurt you.

Lord DesertNov 21, 20192 votes

...... Are you sure about your claim? Have you even read my post?

The relic line lost: 10%cdr +200%hpReg+ 50HP = 1000g + the goldgen passive + the healing effect and gained: 40AP = 870g or 25AD = 875g

Just from the raw stats we lost more, got worse stats, and lost our main income later and the ESSENTIAL healing effect early...

Yes, you safe the first 450g but need to buy a dorans to have the same effect as before (which you desperatly needed as a tank supp), and you have worse gold gen than before. You will reach the final upgrade aprox around the 20-24min mark, (10-12min for the 500g treshhold) so you dont get these "free" stats before the end of the midgame anyway.

Depending on the overall game the worse gold gen and still needing the missing stats( 10%cdr = 266g), you will only have a very small buff WHEN YOU HIT THE FINAL UPGRADE! But the instant you get it, you lose a potential 31.5g/10s = 189g per minute!!! So even if we grant a full 1000g bonus(which would be much lower because of the worse gold gen), this bonus is invalidated after just 6 mins and you lose a ridiculos amount of gold per miunte, as a Supporter how is statistically 3kg behind every other role at the end of a game. This is bullshit and certainly not "buff"!

VentiraNov 21, 20191 votes

I was literally quoting Riot in the patch notes, in regards to the gp/5 changes, I didn't crunch the math myself. Also it's 3g/10, not 2.

Lord DesertNov 21, 20192 votes

The problem is that Riot themself dont know what they are talking about, but luckely for us we can test if their statements hold any water or not. Math to the rescue^^

"Most of the gold these effects granted is still earned in the lower tiers and passive gold per 10 is up, so mid/late game economy is still buffed overall considering the gold made available by the free upgrades."

The "lategame" part is just a flat out lie, as youve seen the increase of the g/10s is horseshit complared to the loss of the goldincome passive. And the gold we safe early needs to be invested into manareg/Ap or a dorans to compansate for the lost passive effects. So early is worse/same, mid is technically a buff IF you get the upgrade super early (you will get the free upgrade only around 20 mins or so), otherwise its the same or even a nerf because of the lower goldgeneration.

These guys dont know how their own game works, dont want to understand how it works or actively want to destroy the game. Riot themself can pick their poision! Ether they are f****** incompetent or they actively want to harm the gamebalance to force certain (assassin and playmaking) playstyles. (which arnt influenced by these changes as much as lets say boring entchanters and tank supps ;D). They can choose whatevery they like best ^^

Yes, I know its 3g/10s in TOTAL, but the relic line had 1g/10s and the spellthief line had 2g/10s already. So the "buff" was a +2g/10s or a +1g/10s respectivly :D

Jimmy RustlesNov 20, 201918 votes

Yea I'm not a big fan of them at all

Makes tanks feel less rewarding since you dont even get to heal people anymore, and who is gunna take the AD poke one besides senna?

Silent ReaperNov 21, 201913 votes

I've been a support main for at least 5 years. I can tell you without a doubt they made Laning phase MUCH healthier.

Poke champions now aren't as abusable as before with lack of damage proc and mana regen. Tank champions can't just out Regen poke unless they commite to being useful in all ins such as Leona and Ali.

Additionally the extra gold + Regen means supports will scale better into mid and late game and give ADC's some more agency early game when they will be bullied less.

Anyone who complains about these support changes either

Doesnt know how to support without abusing poke spells sans auto attacks
Doesn't know how to survive Laning phase as tank without getting poked by auto attacks.

If you fall into either category, learn how to position,auto harass and all in better.

VentiraNov 21, 201914 votes

Just "Dodge the spears" is, has, and never will be a valid argument. You're going to take damage in lane, there's no way around it, and since tanks generally lack decent poke, they have no recourse, especially since Spoils of War encourages them to expose themselves.

The whole point of Regen is to COUNTER poke. Sustain>Poke>Burst

Source: Someone's been playing support almost exclusively since season 3.

MadraNov 21, 201913 votes

The other thing to keep in mind is that you used to and usually did upgrade the gold item to Tier 2 far earlier than it is now naturally evolving on it's own, so there is a pretty significant period of time where you will be losing relative gold because you are generating reduced support gold for a longer period of time.

KynamiNov 21, 20195 votes

Yeah but instead you get to pick up stuff like boots and a cloth/ruby crystal plus your pots/control ward on that first back. Or for the super mana hungry like Sona you can actually get the darn tear without delaying your support item. The only supports really feeling hammered are wardens. All the kill lane supports are looking to be having a decent time of it.

AckelopeNov 21, 20192 votes

do keep in mind that the new gold generation abilities are stronger than their old tier 1 equivalents, but weaker than their old tier 2 equivalents, so it's a bit more gold gen very early, for a little less post first back, but the fact that you don't have to spend gold on the upgrades makes up for that for a large portion of the game.

MadraNov 21, 201911 votes

Six extra gold a minute isn't a strong trade off for having the primary spigot of your gold turned off and this is being justified by a free upgrade into what has always been (and still is) a pretty low impact item. The sacrifice of the CDR seems like it would effect certain builds and champions with disparity. You aren't trying to maximize your gold anymore as a support; it has this kind of well, I'll get there when I get there thing going on; I'll just execute these caster cuz they are here and it's good enough.

MorrhenNov 20, 20199 votes

They're here to stay, sorry mate. Once Riot commits to a change, they're staying with it. Sooooo, you gotta generate a lot of gold, if you want to have 4 placable wards AND additional stats for your FREE item.

Tbh most upsetting thing about the changes is removal of regen itself. Nothing else.

fatalis357Nov 21, 20194 votes

{quoted}

They're here to stay, sorry mate. Once Riot commits to a change, they're staying with it. Sooooo, you gotta generate a lot of gold, if you want to have 4 placable wards AND additional stats for your FREE item.

Tbh most upsetting thing about the changes is removal of regen itself. Nothing else.

agreed! the mana regen is gonna punish caster support.... this such bs!

MickuPgBzNov 20, 20199 votes

At least disable the support minion rule at 1000 gold?? how is this not obvious riot?

realDRdealNov 21, 20192 votes

That would be nice. And just to make sure it is clear to all reading this, what I mean (and am pretty sure op means) is once the support item has upgraded to tier 3 make it so csing isn't penalized anymore. It takes 18 or more minutes to complete the quest to tier 3 and it really hurts when a zyra support and has to wave clear (or team is just not at all good at macro and you need to get top/bot pushing to set up an objective because no one else is doing it) only to get half the gold from minions.

Only happened once so far for me, but still.

Rax ReformedNov 20, 20196 votes

You have to keep in mind that you're now getting a free 1400 gold alone, just from not having to buy upgrades. Check your overall gold per match. Now add 1400 to that. That's how you can calculate the difference in gold from last patch to this one.

ZardoNov 21, 20192 votes

This would only be true I'd everyone upgraded their t2 support item. Most left it at t2 until late game so they could get actual support items.

Clapper of AssesNov 21, 20192 votes

so true, no one gave a fuk about an extra ward

MeisakusenNov 21, 20196 votes

Support items are useless now. They offer lower AD and AP and the key mana or health regen to help support is gone. Why even bother building them when I could just build a ring or a bracer and start swiping the ADCs minions. Trying to out sustain or out poke the enemy is pointless now as there is no reward and the idea that "1500" gold freed up for supports is a bloody lie. Now I just have to find other incomes and build extra items just to have a similar capability as what I use to have while constantly backing, watching my tower getting hit, just to regen health or mana.

There is no reason to play support now as an enchanter. Just give up and go int mid.

[sg-soraka] item 3311

Hailfire805Nov 20, 20195 votes

the new support items i find gives supports some real early strenghth they can hard push for their first item without being punished, it is usaully after that they have to start working hard to get items though

EyesReyeNov 21, 20193 votes

I just really want a Control ward build into the Support item so I can ACTUALLY build a 5th item instead of having to need an open slot for control wards..... Also, an option to quickly cycle through Champions without having to use the F1-5 keys would be really nice to have, maybe something like: Key + Scroll down/up.

GHOSTEMANE MageNov 21, 20193 votes

You can always change the keybinds

MarshallgCqDNov 21, 20193 votes

I think that riot is onto something with these items. While ADCs are complaining about getting bursted 100-0 after getting hit by a single skillshot, what they really meant was they wanted a bruiser or assassin to come into their lane and do it instead. Only this time without the skillshots.

Honestly if botlane stays like this I'm just going to have to quit adc, I've played adc for like 6 seasons and stuck through season 7 but this is just ridiculous.

TolinarNov 21, 20193 votes

I think that even after my Support item is upgraded, I still can't farm. No gold for me. Ever.

Enforced poverty is a garbage mechanic. I can't even play a transition champ. Gold dependent supports are toast.

Taric will never be viable again.

MarshallgCqDNov 21, 20194 votes

I prefer metas where champions like taric or alistar are viable because that's basically the most healthy state for botlane. I don't care so much about diversity, I just don't want toxic champions and combos to become the norm.