Boards›Gameplay

Buffing Lissandra and Vi, Veigar style.

blazeofvictory··6 votes·1,168 views

So, Veigar was buffed nerfed for having point-and-click abilities and lack of counterplay. Therefore, Riot's logical next step is to buff nerf Lissandra andVi amitrite? Liss has her ult which is both point-and-click and uncounterable and hard CC, same with Vi. So, following with the community's reception to Veigar's change, I feel like these two champs deserve no less.

Liss Changes: R is now a skillshot - similar to Sej's in size and speed. It has the same effect upon hitting an enemy, with a catch (see below). To selfcast Liss has to E into her R (a la Ezreal ). Also, upon being hit enemies have .5 seconds to move 200 units out of the initial hit area or they are stunned and take the damage (they take no damage otherwise).

Compensation buff - Q now has .1/.2/.3/.4/.5 reduced cd upon sucessfully stunning an opponent with R. Compensation buff - W now has an increased range of 2.

These changes bring Liss more in line to make sure she has no toxic point-and-click uncounterable plays. The changes are meant to show her massive weakness to every mobile champion because the LCS isn't populated with enough of those yet.

Vi Changes:

R is now a buff to her Q - Upon ulting vi refreshes her Q-cooldown. To get original ulti off, she must hit a champion with Vault Breaker. Upon doing so, she knocks the enemy champion up as before. This ability does not work on cc'd champions.

Compensation buff - W now does half damage to monsters in return for her gaining 50 range on her q. Compensation buff - Q now no longer functions on cc'd enemies, but increases the duration of cc after hitting by .1/.2/.3/.4/.5 s

These changes are meant to showcase Vi's skill as a engager, not a follow-up cc champ. These changes are also meant to lower her reliance on chilling smite as a quick and easy tool to set up q and instead causes her to be a reliable, setup champ who tries to isolate the target and cc them for longer.

The point I'm trying to prove here is that Veigar isn't the strongest or most flagrant offender of abilities don't fit design values. Champs like Vi and Liss are much more common throughout the pro scene. However, even after a NERF through DFG the fact the Riot is headhunting Veigar makes no sense. There are many more champs I could describe here (Lee and Zed come to mind) that describe exactly what Riot is changing in Veigar. So, if a Red does read this, take this away please; if you are going to keep Veigar in the state he is now, please don't ignore all the other champions that are perpetrators of the same crimes Veigar is being accused of.

22 Comments

Deep Terror Nami4 votes

Yes, because 1 champion's non-ultimate AoE instant stun was nerfed, nerf other champion's ultimates. 130-80 and 150-80 single target Ultimates are basically the same as a 20-16 sec AoE ability right?

Romans VI XXIII3 votes

You are missing his point

So, Veigar was buffed nerfed for having point-and-click abilities and lack of* counterplay*.

There is no counter play to point and click stuns, that is why viegs DAMAGELESS stun is being nerfed by Riot. Yet there are other point and click stuns that do DAMAGES. The sad fact is Viegs stun takes more skill to land than Liss or Vi's stuns. So he does have a point in the fact that they need to be nerfed since that is why vieg is being nerfed.

Deep Terror Nami1 votes

I didn't miss his point at all. His point included comparing high CD ultimates that are meant to be powerful to a regular ability.

blazeofvictory3 votes

It also involves Liss and Vi completely violating what Riot is saying is Veigar's problem. Even zed, another example of point and click is completely fine. Riot chose Veigar of all champs, a champion who took nerfs from DFG's removal, and decided that HE was the main problem... Zed is more toxic than veig in multiple ways and yet he was pushed aside.

Romans VI XXIII2 votes

HENCE WHY HIS STUN DOES NO DAMAGE LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Deep Terror Nami1 votes

Yes please ignore that it is designed to synergize with the meteor nuke and getting hit by Event Horizon basically means you get hit by Meteor. You can't just ignore the rest of the kit, it's ignorant and short sighted at best.

Romans VI XXIII1 votes

TY for admitting that you HAVE TO LAND THE STUN TO LAND THE W thats the problem with this nerf, Inless he lands his stun, WHICH HE WILL NEVER LAND WITH THIS NERF, then he will never land his W. Where as liss can still R any target then proceed to obliterate them with Q W E, WITH NO COUNTER PLAY AT ALL!! SO why are they NERFING an under-powered underplayed champ instead of nerfing an over-powered overplayed champ?

Gunpoint3 votes

He's not wrong about Lissandra's ult, it kinda needs more counterplay.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

What design values do you think Liss and Vi ults break?

Riot could nerf both champions, because both are quite strong right now, but it's not like their targeted CC is a unique or even particularly weird thing.

Romans VI XXIII4 votes

What design values do you think Liss and Vi ults break?

Un-counterable point and click stuns. they break it more than vieg does cause viegs actaully takes skill to land where as liss and vi NEVER miss. So according to RIOT liss and vis ults need to be nerfed since they are** UN-COUNTERABLE**. And last I saw liss and vi where actually getting LCS play and vieg was not, so changing there UN-COUNTERABLE stuns should be on the top of thier list instead of **gutting **a champ that is already not played as much as them

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Targeted stuns are powerful, but Lissandra and Vi are both quite recent designs. It's pretty clear Riot supports targeted CC in the right implementation -- see the competitive use of Annie Alistar Irelia JarvanIV LeeSin Leona Lissandra Lulu Maokai Pantheon Vi

The problem with Veigar E is more about the range and reliability of his follow up. By the by, if you're a Veigar fan and want to see him become competitively viable, you should cheer for this E nerf and hope it works. Riot won't let him be good until he can't reliably 100-0 enemy squishies from a mile away.

blazeofvictory2 votes

"Riot won't let him be good until he can't reliably 100-0 enemy squishies from a mile away." It's sad because Veig is the burst a squishy champion. Gutting him like this is the same thing as removing annie passive stun; it takes away what she is good at. Hopefully Veig does get competitive usage sometime, I would love to see him being played. I would argue with the range and reliability argument however, as both Liss and Vi have decent followup, especially lategame. Liss is great at 100-0ing the opponent and Vi has pretty decent damage with warrior anyways. Early game, Veig has a short enough range and short enough stun that he can only kill champs that are close enough to him or has to blow flash to follow up. It is the same reason Gnar has to be used creatively - his mega form is telegraphed. Mid to Late game, I would argue he functions similarly to Liss and Vi in terms of followup.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Neither Lissandra nor Vi have any hope of killing a full health Zyra (lowest HP champ without some survival mechanic) with their combo unless ridiculously ahead. Just check the base damages and ratios on their stuff, it's not impressive. Their ults are powerful because they are initiations -- land one on the opposing carry and your team can clean up the mess.

In most cases, Veigar won't even need W to do the same job.

Romans VI XXIII2 votes

and viegs stun is powerful cause its his initiate LOL

Romans VI XXIII2 votes

by the by, if you're a Veigar fan and want to see him become competitively viable, you should cheer for this E nerf and hope it works.

Gutting a champion is supposed to get them competitive play?

And OMG vieg can follow up with his stun by BLOWING UP 1 PERSON then being of no use to the team until his ult is back up. AND he can only blow up squishies.

But OOOOH no its okay for liss to be able to blow up a squishy but not vieg, its also okay for zed to blow up a squishy but not vieg, its also okay for LB to blow up a squishy but not vieg.

Riot won't let him be good until he can't reliably 100-0 enemy squishies from a mile away.

Last i checked vieg had some of the shorted ranges spells in the game.....inless he got buffed recently LOL

BestSupportGold2 votes

After reading this, it seems to put a lot into perspective that may have gone unnoticed. Squishy champs like Teemo, Veigar, Poppy, etc., how does Riot make them playable and effective in high elo/professional competitive play?

Think about it, what types of champs are most played in the LCS today? We're looking at champs that either scale well in the late game, or have burst potential. With the exception in this case of Veigar, the other champs that I listed don't have burst potential, and often times are the ones that don't scale well into the late game, and don't normally fit into compositions. I think Riot should retire those champs instead of trying to buff them into the game.

Even looking at the last 4 new champs, they are designed now to fit most comps, and scales, looking at older champs they are slowly being phased out/buffed. When will we see a Teemo buff? as an example. Or even a Yorick?

8bj2yMEanN1 votes

As annoying and counterplay-lacking as Vi is, making her ult a skillshot would ruin her, and making Liss's ult a skillshot would pretty much make it so you would never use it offensively during teamfights.

blazeofvictory3 votes

That is exactly what nerfing Veigar does - he can never hit his w or counter ganks anymore. The point of exaggerating the nerfs to this point is to show that nerfing any meta champion in the same way veigar was nerfed, they would be immediately restored because they wouldn't be able to do what they do. These changes would invalidate Liss and Vi as much as Veigar is being invalidated.

MakeHongKongFree1 votes

Every one is claiming that Veigar is going to be irrelevant after his changes come through, BUT NO ONE HAS PLAYED AS HIM UNLESS YOU HAVE A PBE ACCOUNT.

I think these changes are going to make Veigar's AP potential much higher than it currently is, due to the fact that once a deathcap is built, he should easily be able to Q farm 2 minions at once, which is a huge buff to his mid/late game in my opinion.

As far as his E changes go, it is not "healthy" gameplay style for him or his opponents as it is on live. Now, a Veigar player will have to think "I need to catch my opponent in a poor position so I can trap him in my E" instead of "I want to 100-0 someone so I will just Stun them for 2.5 seconds and completely blow them up without any counterplay whatsoever"

blazeofvictory1 votes

I don't disagree with the Veig change to his e, it definitely was not healthy. However, think about Liss and Vi - they violate the same "needs counterplay" rule as Veigar, and yet Riot seems to love keeping their LCS big plays champs perfectly uncounterable. The reason Vi and Liss are counters to Kalista is because they are able to lock down their target forever. Veigar does the same thing and he is gutted. As far as 2 AP per q goes, it is opputunistic.

MakeHongKongFree1 votes

I do not think that making Lissandra have to E into her ult is the right way to go about using it defensively.

Ezreal using his E to run into his W is not essential to his gameplay. Meanwhile, Lissandra NEEDS to be able to ult herself in situations where she must QUICKLY go on the defensive (tower dives, engaging with ult-zhonyas to wait for her team to follow up).

Making her use her E to dash into her ult also makes her too dependent on her E's long cooldown ( 24 / 21 / 18 / 15 / 12 without any CDR built.)

so if a Lissandra were to be 3v1 tower dived with this proposed change, she would most likely use her claw to retreat back to her tower, and would have to wait another approx. 20 seconds to be able to use her ult on herself so she doesn't die.

In the end, Lissandra's ult needs to be able to quickly self-cast for better gameplay.

blazeofvictory3 votes

Honestly, Liss can already jump half the lane with her e. The ability to survive a 3v1 gank after is pretty strong after that, and is another reason liss needs to be nerfed, in addition to her point-and-click stun. These nerfs were jokes but it doesn't take away the fact that there are better priorities on Riot's nerf list than Veigar.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by blazeofvictory

Tooltip bug
Report a Bug0 comments
1
votes