So Lissandra needs a major overhaul. Her ap scaling is nonsense, and her UTL is a joke. Morgs Q snares for longer and Liss's UTL does no dmg and she can die even when going into a stasis. She is honestly the worst champ right now. Her passive offers no additional dmg so why would she be so underpowered and her UTL offers nothing substantial? Rework or delete. She is a horrible champ right now lol
Poske6 votesYou mean that champion which just happends to counter any assassin has insane Point and click instant lockdown barely any cooldowns Bunch of CC on top of having 1k dash which can be deadly as fk when used from out of fog of war and can dash through multiple walls
Dr Jinzo2 votesShe has barely anything powerful in her kit. She is completely item dependent. Even lux owns her 1v1 at lvl 3 lol. Heck even at 6. She heals, big whoop. Or has a one champion click snare. She does not contribute any real benefits to teams in the last two seasons. Her AP scaling is horrendous by itself. Every 18 sec she gets a free mana cost ability but when its that weak who cares. It does nothing to her dmg output which is two abilities out of the 4 for a mage. Its bad. Its like picking a champ for two cc moves only, with no dmg to back it up. Even Amu and Galio can tank, and serve more aoe cc with more dmg. Face it, she sucks now. The only mid she counters is maybe zed, and thats a big MAYBE.
Poske4 votesI think there is a huge chance that you have no idea how to play lissandra
A crowd control mage is completely tiem dependent? WhatTAQUACK?
Only thing I agree with is the fact that her passive is dogshit. But lissandra as a whole is nowhere near that
Yotsume Kami1 votesTell that to my lvl 7 lissandra xD. I 1 shot every none tank champ mid game. But i enjoy your post because no one will play her then dont wanna play vs another main lissandra lol.
23382622_DEL3 votes[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AftNlbug,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-11-26T10:36:29.909+0000)
You mean that champion which just happends to counter any assassin has insane Point and click instant lockdown barely any cooldowns Bunch of CC on top of having 1k dash which can be deadly as fk when used from out of fog of war and can dash through multiple walls
This.
Molohk1 votesI love playing Lissandra just to see who is silly enough to try to dive me under turret (elo hell, so it happens a lot, and I love it).
Catastrop4 votesOP I suggest you actually play Lissandra a bit more before making a thread like this.
Dominick Destine3 votesI somewhat tend to agree that Lissandra is weak... I looked up the stats after writing that sentence; https://champion.gg/champion/Lissandra
She is at 49.2% win rate with a low pick rate of 2%. We now know that low pick rate inflates win rate and high pick rate deflates win rate, so the fact that she is sitting at such a low win rate despite a low pick rate means she is grossly underpowered. Yeah, Lissandra needs buffs.
Poske2 votes49.2
Means that liss players lose 1.6% more games then an average champion does
1.6% is nothing
She is closer to being overpowerd then being underpowered
If you want underpowered midlaners there is brand ziggs etc
Its just happends so that there is no point in picking lissandra in toplane in this kennen jayce meta... She is the best vs melee champs
Randomonium1 votesHave you looked at stats recently? Ziggs is sitting at a 54.5% win rate and Brand has a 52.2% win rate mid and a 53.6% win rate as support. If you say 49.2% is closer to overpowered than underpowered then what does that make Ziggs and Brand?
Source: http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Middle
Poske1 votesI main both of this champions
There are no reasons to pick them in midlane over Syndra,viktor and veigar. There is also 0 reasons to pick veigar over syndra
Ziggs has been a dogshit pick ever since riot changed the baron buff to the point where his stall doesnt exist. Actually ziggs has been a dogshit pick ever since they made his q High elo proof You aint gonna hit anything with ziggs there no matter how good you are
If the champion.gg was counting Only Diamond elo You would see this champions with pathetic winrate except brand support
The times when Brand was viable was at his release and not so long ago when DFT was godly
Granted I am talking about Brand,ziggs and veigar mid
Brand support is whole another story. I actually think veigar outclasses that a bit but the data doesnt show that. Cant wait for someone to pick veigar support at worlds though
Another thing to note is that this champions are only being played by ziggs and veigar dyhard mains. Sample size is small there are basicly no 1tricks ziggs and veigar players in diamond1 +
Many people would consider me a troll Had I picked ziggs/Veigar/brand mid in ranked recently and its not because they are sheeps. Its mostlikely because they main mid to and know how pointless this champions atm are
Actually I think they would be fine with brand But I know I wouldnt if Another ally would pick that for mid
Randomonium1 votesActually, we can check at diamond+ elo and see that Ziggs and Brand both have higher win rates there too.
http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/lissandra/top/diamond
http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/lissandra/middle/diamond
http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/brand/middle/diamond
http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/brand/support/diamond
http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/ziggs/middle/diamond
You make some really good points. My only issue is that you claim Lissandra is fine but Brand and Ziggs are trash tier and yet Brand and Ziggs have higher win rates and their play rates are pretty similar to Lissandra. Either they're all fine or none of them are.
Poske1 voteswell brand is viable in support role but far from being viable in mid due to existance of syndra
Syndra has As much aoe damage (This actually saddens me since I main both but I cant deny it) Syndra has way more efficient stun (Specialy because Brand stun duration got nerfed from 2 seconds) Syndra also has more range 200 in average on everything Syndra also can move while casting abilities Syndra also has single targeted burst (Which is gonna get nerfed rightfully so) I have one shoted just by pressing R and I also got 1 shoted by syndra pressing R on me twice just yestreday or day before) Syndra also has lower cooldowns Syndra also has better waveclear Syndra also has insane buff control
I think you can see why I stopeed playing Brand in Ranked
I tryed everything to make brand viable In fact When I play him this is ussualy the build I use even in Midlane Frost queen claim > rylai > lyandri > rabadon > whatever specificly in that order else he is not even close to being viable
Now I would still consider him viable in mid but they have nerfed the mana regen of frost queen so if that item ever gets buffed I ll bring it in the midlane with brand. You can easly earn 1500 gold per game with that on Brand mid rest are cores
Noteable stuff is 20% Cdr per level in Runes. Because Brand works insanely with cdr due to abilities second passives but sadly..... None of his core items give him that
He is also the only champion I use spellwamp at aside from vladimir. Mainly because he is aoe mage with suprising ammount of single target abilities which dont get 1/3 by spellwamp Just for some sustain
I use hp per level yellows to be universal but this style of playing brand is really risky And I wouldnt pick him in snowbally champs
Also there is veigar who does a little less aoe damage but has so Great stun that it doesnt matter I actually have no idea why veigar isnt outclassing brand in botlane Could be because of base stats. Frost fang brand interaction or whatever
Ziggs is not considered a good champion by any high elo mid main. He has a nice winrate but still I get dissapointed every time i PLay him specially because I used to main him and he was like my top 3 favorite champion
ATM he is unplayable he can easly become a good pick if they revert the q radius nerf Or atleast halve the nerf
Bishasaurus Flex1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AftNlbug,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-26T23:06:04.824+0000)
well brand is viable in support role but far from being viable in mid due to existance of syndra
Syndra has As much aoe damage (This actually saddens me since I main both but I cant deny it) Syndra has way more efficient stun (Specialy because Brand stun duration got nerfed from 2 seconds) Syndra also has more range 200 in average on everything Syndra also can move while casting abilities Syndra also has single targeted burst (Which is gonna get nerfed rightfully so) I have one shoted just by pressing R and I also got 1 shoted by syndra pressing R on me twice just yestreday or day before) Syndra also has lower cooldowns Syndra also has better waveclear Syndra also has insane buff control
I think you can see why I stopeed playing Brand in Ranked
I tryed everything to make brand viable In fact When I play him this is ussualy the build I use even in Midlane Frost queen claim > rylai > lyandri > rabadon > whatever specificly in that order else he is not even close to being viable
Now I would still consider him viable in mid but they have nerfed the mana regen of frost queen so if that item ever gets buffed I ll bring it in the midlane with brand. You can easly earn 1500 gold per game with that on Brand mid rest are cores
Noteable stuff is 20% Cdr per level in Runes. Because Brand works insanely with cdr due to abilities second passives but sadly..... None of his core items give him that
He is also the only champion I use spellwamp at aside from vladimir. Mainly because he is aoe mage with suprising ammount of single target abilities which dont get 1/3 by spellwamp Just for some sustain
I use hp per level yellows to be universal but this style of playing brand is really risky And I wouldnt pick him in snowbally champs
Also there is veigar who does a little less aoe damage but has so Great stun that it doesnt matter I actually have no idea why veigar isnt outclassing brand in botlane Could be because of base stats. Frost fang brand interaction or whatever
Ziggs is not considered a good champion by any high elo mid main. He has a nice winrate but still I get dissapointed every time i PLay him specially because I used to main him and he was like my top 3 favorite champion
ATM he is unplayable he can easly become a good pick if they revert the q radius nerf Or atleast halve the nerf
Her nerf was actually reverted:)
Dominick Destine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AftNlbug,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-11-26T10:38:13.355+0000)
49.2 Means that liss players lose 1.6% more games then an average champion does 1.6% is nothing She is closer to
Did you not understand what was previously stated?
A low pick rate inflates win rate. A high pick rate deflates win rate. This has been established over and over across multiple years.
She has a very low pick rate and her win rate is under 50%, this means she is grossly underpowered. Do you understand?
Poske1 votesI have played league of legends season 1
Trust me when I say this if ANYTHING Lissandra is not gonna be receiving changes which would result in buffs
Take a look at this http://champion.gg/champion/Lissandra/Top
Lissandra Top lane Winrate this Patch. And keep in mind its full of jayces kennens And generaly full of ranged champions against which liss is not an ideal pick Everyone hates this ranged champion toplane meta and its gonna get nerfed soon. Once that happends lissandra ll be a frost queen of ranged overlords
62.05 Winrate if you are skilled LISSANDRA? Vayne is at 54.26 in 125+ games - Permabann tier Le blanc is at 53.66 in 125+ games granted she just got rework and majority of le bl players never had idea what they were doing with this champ Heck even Faker makes 123018231 mistakes with this champ -Another Permabann tier in my elo (Banned 30% of games) Lee sin 52.7 best jungler in the game... at 125+
Granted all this champions require more skill and are more popular also they all quite old playerbase has quite good numer of games on them but Lissandra has 8% more percent thats 16% more wins in average...
DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW BROKEN SHE IS DUDE... SHHHHH dont tell anyone I hope you came to your senses now
Any time a champion reaches 61%+ winrate once playerbase is skilled with them the champion is bound to get nerfs
Winrate is a factor TRUE Popularity is a factor TRUE Champions age and total games played is a factor (For example lee sin is so old that he should be fine at 49% winrate as highskillcap champion) Winrate at high ammount of games played is a cruical factor The fact that lissandra is a flex pick is a factor
Another thing you dont seem to get is HOW LOW the difference between 49.2 and 50 Is
If lissandra gets even a minor buff she is permabann TRUST ME ON THIS If you ask me she never needed latest healing buff I was expecting her to broke the banlist counter even with that buff
Dominick Destine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AftNlbug,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2016-11-26T20:56:42.262+0000)
I have played league of legends season 1
As did I , what's your point?
Trust me when I say this if ANYTHING Lissandra is not gonna be receiving changes which would result in buffs
Probably.
Riot does not like Lissandra, for some reason.
Take a look at this http://champion.gg/champion/Lissandra/Top
Did you even bother checking your own link? she has even WORSE stats as a top laner than as a mid laner.
Permabann tier in my elo (Banned 30% of games)
Lissandra is not "permabanned" at any bracket.
I play Diamond and have been Diamond for multiple years, I have never seen her banned even once.
Any time a champion reaches 61%+ winrate once playerbase is skilled with them the champion is bound to get nerfs
Given that she is now under 47% win rate, this means she desperately needs buffs.
Another thing you dont seem to get is HOW LOW the difference between 49.2 and 50 Is
Even if it were 50%, her very-low pick rate should inflate her win rate , which it has not.
This , for the last time, is indicative of the fact that she is horrendously underpowered.
Poske1 votesYes I checked my own link
Did you not see that 62% winrate which lissandra mains have at toplane DID YOU ?
Now check winrate of any champion with 125+ games. Anything you find with 60%+ is hidden OP You wont find much
I said that Le bl is permabann tier not Lissandra and I compared their winrates. You got that part wrong
Dominick Destine1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AftNlbug,comment-id=000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-28T00:11:58.596+0000)
Yes I checked my own link
No you did not. At least not until I prompted you.
Her win rate is atrocious, barely 49% and 47% in mid and top respectively. That's atrocious given her low pick rate. This is indefensible. Lissandra needs buffs.
Catastrop1 votesI'm not saying I wouldn't mind Liss buffs, but honestly, she's pretty good. She has her good and bad match ups and is pretty balanced overall. I know her stats don't exactly look that great, but not every champion needs to be a 50+ WR FotM Balance issues.
Catastrop1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AftNlbug,comment-id=000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-28T00:11:58.596+0000)
Did you not see that 62% winrate which lissandra mains have at toplane DID YOU ? Now check winrate of any champion with 125+ games. Anything you find with 60%+ is hidden OP You wont find much
That's to be expected of any champion with such a small playerbase. Liss top is played by few people and even fewer with 125+ games, obviously it's going to inflate her winrate much more than it should. Mid Liss is where you need to look for proper stats as that's her main lane and has the more sizable sample pool to make statements on her overall health.
Poske1 votesOH NO AP JUNGLE VARUS HAS 1% PICKRATE 10% WINRATE WE MUST BUFF IT ?
its easy to see why Murica Is Seen as godamn brainwashed country
I can make a thread then. AD LE BL HAS 45% WINRATE AND LOW PICKRATE BUFF HER
If you are playing Mid lissandra you shouldnt be playing lissandra
55%-56% Would be normal
With 62% YOU SHOULD NEVER EVER PUT A GODAMN LISSANDRA VIABILITY IN QUESTION
Catastrop1 votesI think you either missed my point entirely or replied to the wrong comment.
Also I'm not American.
Poske1 votes62% winrate is insane stat
Its not like lissandra mains have fking 56% winrate ITS AT FKING 62%
You seem like a type of a person Who demands 99% TO BE BROKEN OR WHAT AN ACTUAL FK
Catastrop1 votes62% is hardly insane if the sample size barely exists. 125+ winrates are only relevant if there's actually a sizeable amount of people playing it, at least 1%. Liss top in general is a .73% pickrate. That number goes down as number of games increases because not many will play that many games. So obviously the winrate gets inflated because there aren't many games to actually look at. You're basically saying if I suddenly decided to play Liss for 10 games, won 6 which would put me at a 60% winrate that it'd be proof of Liss being broken. Honestly, if you're going to quote stats at least know how they work and what they represent.
Poske1 votesShe has been at 62% winrate at top for patches now
Take multiple patches in a count like last 10
I am not saying lissandra deserves to be gutted with my replies. Just saying taht she is far from need of a buff
Catastrop1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AftNlbug,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2016-11-26T20:56:42.262+0000)
If lissandra gets even a minor buff she is permabann TRUST ME ON THIS If you ask me she never needed latest healing buff I was expecting her to broke the banlist counter even with that buff
She almost did too, the only reason she didn't was because she's a more utility focused mage so she can't carry games as hard as other such champions who have both utility and damage. Frankly I prefer it this way, I don't need my champion becoming pick/ban.
Fckjaxsuo43v3r1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AftNlbug,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2016-11-26T20:56:42.262+0000)
I have played league of legends season 1
Trust me when I say this if ANYTHING Lissandra is not gonna be receiving changes which would result in buffs
Take a look at this http://champion.gg/champion/Lissandra/Top
Lissandra Top lane Winrate this Patch. And keep in mind its full of jayces kennens And generaly full of ranged champions against which liss is not an ideal pick Everyone hates this ranged champion toplane meta and its gonna get nerfed soon. Once that happends lissandra ll be a frost queen of ranged overlords
62.05 Winrate if you are skilled LISSANDRA? Vayne is at 54.26 in 125+ games - Permabann tier Le blanc is at 53.66 in 125+ games granted she just got rework and majority of le bl players never had idea what they were doing with this champ Heck even Faker makes 123018231 mistakes with this champ -Another Permabann tier in my elo (Banned 30% of games) Lee sin 52.7 best jungler in the game... at 125+
Granted all this champions require more skill and are more popular also they all quite old playerbase has quite good numer of games on them but Lissandra has 8% more percent thats 16% more wins in average...
DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW BROKEN SHE IS DUDE... SHHHHH dont tell anyone I hope you came to your senses now
Any time a champion reaches 61%+ winrate once playerbase is skilled with them the champion is bound to get nerfs
Winrate is a factor TRUE Popularity is a factor TRUE Champions age and total games played is a factor (For example lee sin is so old that he should be fine at 49% winrate as highskillcap champion) Winrate at high ammount of games played is a cruical factor The fact that lissandra is a flex pick is a factor
Another thing you dont seem to get is HOW LOW the difference between 49.2 and 50 Is
If lissandra gets even a minor buff she is permabann TRUST ME ON THIS If you ask me she never needed latest healing buff I was expecting her to broke the banlist counter even with that buff
It is a nonsense. Even if she had such a high winrate she is in the neverused class. So the stats are useless. And if she is in the neverused class, it's because she is like Morg but not a supp while Morg can also sup, Liss's Q range is purely ridiculous for a ranged mage, base range and buffed range alike, her W is only usable at about 200 units from her center so not being a colossus, she doesn't have a good rooting range at all, her scaling totally suck compared to actual champions (about the same as Sejuani I think, or not very higher), her mana costs are ridiculous too (at least her passive should have 10 sec CD lv1 and 6 sec lv 18 without possibility to reduce it by CDR) because a mage who uses double amount of mana of her class (mages) should at least have some good points.
I love her gameplay, just give a little more range on Q (at least base range, it's ridiculous), lower by 20 all of her mana costs and give her a little more scalings (+0.2 AP on each skill, at least Q and R). Nobody is scared of the ice queen anymore...
VonToothskie1 votesYou seem to think that stating something obligates someone else to agree. this is what's called a "logical fallacy", in that it you are treating it as logical or factual when it is not. High or low win rate is affected by dozens of factors, from the skill level of players using a champ to the champs they commonly lane against, to the type of player attracted to a champion and the patching or removal of items the champ relies on. I agree that low pick champs are frequently picked by the players who main them, and are therefore more likely to know how to play them well and score better win rates as a result. I also know that new champs frequently get good or bad reputations before they are fully patched and balanced with the current meta and don't get mained hard, and fan favorite champs are kept buffed to keep selling 5 to 30 dollar skins. there's a lot of data involved in assessing a champion. The point is you should avoid a condescending tone in chat regardless, but doubly so when your argument has holes in it
Dominick Destine1 votesYou seem to think that stating something obligates someone else to agree.
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/263/470/170.jpg
Requiemsfire3 votesLet's see, She's a very versatile mage who has
Mobility, CC. hard CC, lock down, initiation, some poke sustain low cooldowns relatively speaking
Poske1 votesTHANK YOU!
normie sIayer1 votesWaveclear
GULAG 4 U2 votesLOLOLOL
Taizuki1 votesYou spelled Akali wrong.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 voteslast time I played her was support liss and I went 1-5-13
and I play her typically top lane. I think the removal of the oppressor mastery really effected her cuz she got a free 2.5% damage increase on all her abilities cuz they all have a form of a slow which proc the mastery
Leo10241 votesi'm perfectly fine with Lissandra, she could use some better scaling in the late game but other than that i, perfectly fine with her damage since she CANT die in her ult and it does damage which is a neat tool for tower diving, her kit is to versatile to be buffed, her Q is good damage, W a root, and E does the same amount of Q damage even though you can teleport to it making her very hard to gank, i love liss and i don't think she should be changed
she was my first main ever <3
bad arcade kitty1 votesstill no fluffy ears skin too
Dr Jinzo1 votesAs Morg I dump on her. Double dmg utl, spell shield, aoe, and a 3 sec q...
She sucks. Let it go.
SwordOfWar1 votesThat's not true. She is a hard counter to diving opponents like yasuo, fizz, and LeBlanc because of her W and honestly all her other abilities tbh. Look it up on champion gg.
Fckjaxsuo43v3r1 votesThat's not true. She is a hard counter to diving opponents like yasuo, fizz, and LeBlanc because of her W and honestly all her other abilities tbh. Look it up on champion gg.
Then they don't dive, that's all. Yasuo blocks Q and E with his wall, his poke is much more violent than Liss's and he regen on hit and on Q etc. while Liss regens only on R. Fizz can avoid 2 skills with one skill, he can shoot his R to you from further than Liss's E range, and he can dash on Liss. LB has been hard nerfed, may she be suppressed by the way, the game would be better of, so they wouldn't give her strength again.
And for playing Lissandra, even liking her gameplay, it's so boring to play her more than 3x in a row...so I don't believe in the fact that people spam her like 5-10 games in a row, except playing 1 game per day.
Doodlzzz1 votesshe just got a buff
Dude do you have any idea how powerful lissandra can be, she is not the worst champ at all, she has aoe burst movility and a point and click ult that locks a champion, and you talk about lux like shes a meh champ too... Do you know how mages work?
