Hypercarries ARE NO LONGER LATE MID TO LATE GAME CHAMPS

juumping beans·Sep 30, 2017·42 votes·3,896 views

I am unsure what Riot may consider "LATE GAME CHAMPIONS" but lately they seem to try and nerf hyper carries a bit that have taken over the game such as have you found your self-mad or annoyed with any of these champs in the past few patches . Then you know what I'm talking about you would think okay they get a few kills they can stop me but no biggie they aren't super strong until late game (30-40 mins) then you are wrong. These champs have been being 2/0 at about 9 mins and doing so much dmg like the game is at 25 mins when they have one item, then they get omega fed and become their late-game form by 20 mins or even sooner well honestly its kind of annoying and i personally think we need to give some of them a bit of a nerf not into the ground just a little more to delay their power in someway

36 Comments

xJLx MCHammerSep 30, 201727 votes

They are early game champions now with insane late game

Mostly because riot constantly kept nerfing what was meant to counter ADCs (assassins and AP champions) and they also nerfed early game ADCs

It's why a KoG can hold a lane well and eventually outscale most early game ADCs.

Further more, the changes to early game junglers and introduction of reworked Dorian's shield gave these champions the ability to survive against tough match up

If towers get bufffed, it's going to push the late game hyper carry champions even more. They will be able to farm under turret till 15-20 min and hit their first spike

Also. As a side note, in Worlds this week, multiple casters and analyst said that Trist a hypercarry adc, hits her spike at ONE ITEM. That tells you the issue of the current meta

KlydeFrogSep 30, 20174 votes

Kog can hold a lane because he is basically a mage due to his damage

ZeroAgainstOct 1, 20171 votes

well what do you expect when your nerf caitlyn and draven the lane bullys same thing happened in s3 vayne needed botr and she'd win any match ups corki and kog needed tri that was all of s3 if you go in the old boards you'l find post bitching about it.

Teridax68Sep 30, 201718 votes

I think part of the issue (but not all of it) comes from our own perception of the game, which hasn't evolved as quickly as matches themselves have become faster-paced. When a three-phase game has an average duration of 30 minutes, the 20-minute mark really is the beginning of the late game, so it should be somewhat expected for a late-game class to start becoming strong there. What isn't so good, though, is that marksmen often are much stronger before that, and still get to enjoy a top-tier late game in addition to what are often strong early or mid games (or both).

To make things worse, the problem with marksmen hypercarries specifically, aside from them being too strong too early, is that they fundamentally lack any meaningful counterplay. In the last set of patch notes, Vayne's weak early game was touted as a great weakness, but that completely ignores her performance thereafter, where there's not much that many can do to outplay her. Her being meant to have a strong late-game isn't really a valid excuse, as non-marksman hypercarries like Karthus, Nasus, Veigar, etc. have far more glaring weaknesses, as well as more innate counterplay. The fact that these champions also tend to have significantly weaker early and mid games suggests to me that there's a bit of a double standard when it comes to designing and balancing marksmen versus non-marksmen, particularly since marksmen as a class are still considered essential for their carry potential, whereas non-marksmen hypercarries aren't valued for that nearly as much.

MordepoolSep 30, 20177 votes

{quoted}

I think part of the issue (but not all of it) comes from our own perception of the game, which hasn't evolved as quickly as matches themselves have become faster paced. When a three-phase game has an average duration of 30 minutes, the 20-minute mark really is the beginning of the late game, so it should be somewhat expected for a late-game class to start becoming strong there. What isn't so good, though, is that marksmen often are much stronger before that, and still get to enjoy a top-tier late game in addition to what are often strong early or mid games (or both).

In addition to this, the problem with marksmen hypercarries specifically, in addition to them being too strong too early, is that they fundamentally lack any meaningful counterplay. In the last set of patch notes, Vayne's weak early game was touted as a great weakness, but that completely ignores her performance thereafter, where there's not much that many can do to outplay her. Her being meant to have a strong late-game isn't really a valid excuse, as non-marksman hypercarries like Karthus, Nasus, Veigar, etc. have far more glaring weaknesses, as well as more innate counterplay. The fact that these champions also tend to have significantly weaker early and mid games suggests to me that there's a bit of a double standard when it comes to designing and balancing marksmen versus non-marksmen, particularly since marksmen as a class are still considered essential for their carry potential, whereas non-marksmen hypercarries aren't valued for that nearly as much.

Marksman need to take a Hit for the betterment of Game health as a whole.

Sorry riot it has to happen otherwise you will keep Bleeding players

Bob the ToastrSep 30, 20173 votes

One thing I would suggest is to start by increasing the cost of the crit items. Mages have to pay 3800 for Deathcap? Well maybe ADC's should have to pay 3800 for IE. Mages have to pay 3200 for Luden's? Maybe ADC's should have to pay more (not necessarily 3200) for Statikk Shiv, Rapid Fire, etc. That should help delay how long it takes for them to get to their late game power.

juumping beansSep 30, 20171 votes

maybe 3500 for ie Im pretty sure it used to cost that much anyways, and crit items should vary things that are really good like item 3046 item 3087 should cost 3100 cause 200 gold is only about 1 wave of minions + the gold you get while getting the minions passively or just one kill or tower and the other items that are very situational to certain champs like item 3085 item 3094 Should just remain at 2900.

Bob the ToastrSep 30, 20174 votes

It actually used to be 3800.

V5.22 Total cost reduced to Gold 3600 from Gold 3800. AD reduced to 65 from 80.

But yeah, the items do need to be more expensive.

Zed geniusSep 30, 20178 votes

when you get to a point that Twitch pretty much auto-bullies Caitlyn in lane you know something's wrong

OHminusSep 30, 20172 votes

To be fair, that has to do with Caitlyn being really weak atm just as much as how strong Twitch is.

SnaketitsSep 30, 20177 votes

This really only applies to marksmen, I can't say the same about Cassiopeia anymore after these brutal 7.18 nerfs (winrate at 46% right now). If you're not playing a champion who can snowball a game within the first 25 minutes, you're simply not viable in this meta.

IPERFECTOSep 30, 20175 votes

1.Make "ADC OP" or "HYPERCURRY OP" or "TWITCH DELETING MY ENTIRE TEAM WITH item 3087 PROC" title 2.Exaggerate everything and completely bias about any other classes 3.Farm upvotes 4.??? 5.Done

BańgSep 30, 20174 votes

dont play ranked entire season and play normals only with bronzes where anything goes
go on a boards post complaining about the ranked meta and say its not true
???
still ignorant.

IPERFECTOSep 30, 20177 votes

eh...I mean you're unranked aswell.And yeah, i am not such type of guy who goes ranked while knowing that his connection is hella unstable that has a chance to dc in literally every game and ruin every other teammates statistics this way,so i'd better play normals.

Smitty ManjensenSep 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

1.Make "ADC OP" or "HYPERCURRY OP" or "TWITCH DELETING MY ENTIRE TEAM WITH PROC" title 2.Exaggerate everything and completely bias about any other classes 3.Farm upvotes 4.??? 5.Done

So true, there are like thousands of these threads daily, each have the same upvote farming content.

EkyonKunSep 30, 20178 votes

{quoted}

So true, there are like thousands of these threads daily, each have the same upvote farming content.

Maybe if the problem would be fixed, people would stop complaining about it. Maybe some of these people have valid viewpoints about the current game balance.

XvWrathfulvXSep 30, 20171 votes

The problem with that logic is that no matter what you fix in a game people will constantly find something to complain about. It could literally be the smallest and most insignificant thing but if people perceive it as a problem best believe they will find a forum in which to complain about it. If you want a good example you need, look no further than the Destiny forums. For three years I watched people complain about the OP flavor of the week no matter if what they were complaining about was OP or not. It's just the nature of gamers, unfortunately.

Smitty ManjensenSep 30, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Maybe if the problem would be fixed, people would stop complaining about it. Maybe some of these people have valid viewpoints about the current game balance.

No it wouldn't, the farmers would just jump to the next big thing to farm upvotes, do you live under a rock?

MalothereSep 30, 20174 votes

I feel like if they actually gave adcs weaknesses they probably wouldnt be played all that much, but i honestly wouldn't mind as long as enchanters became actual team helpers and not just the adcs personal stat buffer.

Recon1212Sep 30, 20174 votes

every game i see one of those champs in, it almost Garen tees the Viktor of the game and its really sad

BańgSep 30, 20173 votes

same with pantheon.

"he falls off late"

late never comes.

he makes enemy laner useless gets lethality roams and presses w and q.

DemainaNyxOct 1, 20173 votes

Riot just needs to stop making games shorter. Stop with these paper mache towers, with a Herald that takes half your towers health in one charge, with RNG dragons that disappear after 35 minutes that make it impossible for a behind team to get some free stats (with 5 dragons before, you could come still get dragons stats even if the enemy team took all the early game dragons).

People want a late game carry to scale up after 40 minutes, but games end by 25, before a hyper carry is even slightly relevant. So, to help balance that out, hyper carries now scale into game around 30 minutes because they reduced the cost of crit items. They just need to have games go back to being around 30 minutes so that needing a game to last to 40 minutes for an ADC to be important isn't unlikely.

Alternatively, catch up exp in the jungle shouldn't be so crazy. A 3 level behind jungler shouldn't get 180 bonus exp by clearing his Raptor camp, or 300 bonus exp by clearing his Krugs. 30 bonus per camp should be fine, not per creep. Or if it's per creep, have it add up to close to 30, maybe 40 for Raptors and 50 for Krugs. A Kha'zix stealing all of Amumu's blue buffs should hurt Amumu's levels, not just have him go clear Raptors and Krugs and then be 1 level behind (especially if the Amumu is not a jungle main).

AFilthyCaitMainSep 30, 20172 votes

Bless the Caitlyn buffs at least

MLDzXnRRRSep 30, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Bless the buffs at least

Cait was strong early And late since forever...

The problem is in the crit items. Too slot and gold efficient. Armor and MR are garbage items, but when you have them on a champs that can permastun you, they do the job. Buy them on a squishy carry and he will still get blown. Support that can stack shields are still too strong.

juumping beansSep 30, 20174 votes

I can agree 100% maybe they need to nerf statikk for people like vayne or just ie by like 5% of the bns crit dmg idk im up for trying to just buff early games a bit and see where that takes us before the nerf bat

IoLanaSep 30, 20171 votes

Vayne Q bonus damage can't crit anymore, but that huge 20% increase in tAD makes up for that build duskblade-shiv and your doing nearly the same damage as pre nerf q with an I.E. goodbye squishy.

They just need to revert the change from zeal items becoming more powerfully energized.

AhrisSep 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Cait was strong early And late since forever...

The problem is in the crit items. Too slot and gold efficient. Armor and MR are garbage items, but when you have them on a champs that can permastun you, they do the job. Buy them on a squishy carry and he will still get blown. Support that can stack shields are still too strong.

Ya can't rlly make an adc weak late game since auto attacks all do a lot of damage late.

IsedelicaSep 30, 20172 votes

im not annoyed

im more annoyed of the supports

THERE SO STRONG

but honestly keep them that way cause there where to many mages bot lane last season anyway

FeathermaneSep 30, 20171 votes

Vayne is not a hypercarry. Do any teams actually get outscaled by Vayne who has just been farming all game long? She has outplay tools in lane to help her get ahead, her major power spike is her first item, she excels in duels (not teamfights) and would rather be split pushing instead of grouping most of the time. Sounds more like Akali than Kog'Maw. That's not a hypercarry, that's a snowball.

Karn BishopSep 30, 20176 votes

When your main ability gives you super steroids, makes you invisible and grants you immunity to the effects that usually counter act invisibility team fights for all intensive purposes ARE 1v1's for her hell most ability's can't even target her in the one second she appears before tumbling again and those that can lock onto her fizzle mid travel should she tumble invisible again.

I will continue to argue that vaynes immunity to revealing effects needs to go or her ability needs to grant the temporary invisibility ONLY against those champions she is currently not auto attacking, her current auto attack target should always be able to see her even if the rest of the team cannot, why would this be a good change you ask? well it forces her to be picky about targets, much like assassins must be picky about their targets now which makes sense given they advertise her as a marksmen assassin so balance her as both instead of ignoring the assassin portion of her as they are currently doing.

RavenMagusSep 30, 20172 votes

Vayne is actually short range, though - or rather, she has average range, which still allows enemy tanks to click on her. You'll notice the other three ADCs mentioned above have above average range through abilities, allowing them to delete enemy teams from the safety of long range.

Personally, I think the biggest problem right now, beyond just crit itself, is item 3087 . I'm actually really glad they finally got rid of Vayne's hypercrit Qs, but this item is still so super overloaded for ADCs in general, adding an incredible amount of burst damage AND sustained damage AND waveclear all for a very low cost.

DaNinadSep 30, 20171 votes

Vayne's probably the only balanced adc right now tbh. After the crit changes she doesnt burst and gives sustained damage and has short range. She does have self peel but she has nothing out of a 550 range. By balanced i mean not weak or strong.

Need Gold 4 TentOct 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Karn Bishop,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AUqsQidY,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-09-30T07:55:30.255+0000)

When your main ability gives you super steroids, makes you invisible and grants you immunity to the effects that usually counter act invisibility team fights for all intensive purposes ARE 1v1's for her hell most ability's can't even target her in the one second she appears before tumbling again and those that can lock onto her fizzle mid travel should she tumble invisible again.

I will continue to argue that vaynes immunity to revealing effects needs to go or her ability needs to grant the temporary invisibility ONLY against those champions she is currently not auto attacking, her current auto attack target should always be able to see her even if the rest of the team cannot, why would this be a good change you ask? well it forces her to be picky about targets, much like assassins must be picky about their targets now which makes sense given they advertise her as a marksmen assassin so balance her as both instead of ignoring the assassin portion of her as they are currently doing.

Pink wards need to come back. There is literally no counter to invisibility champs (not talking twitch or eve). In it's current state you might as well rename invisibility to invulnerability, because you really cannot do anything while it lasts anyway, even if you know where they are.

zecastarSep 30, 20171 votes

AP Kog needs a buff, AD Kog is basically fine since he has pretty big weaknesses and requires the right comp. imo

Twitch is busted in SQ (even if not OP in reality)

Tristana is slightly OP

Vayne seems fine

NodirjonSattarovOct 1, 20171 votes

Kog'Maw has an early game? Title is click bait, disregard this inexperienced player.

OP Garen SupportOct 1, 20171 votes

Just hard nerf the adc items. Every class got itemisation gutted except marksmen who got overbuffed in time. Simply separate stats adc items gives way too many power for low cost. Make them choose between stats like the rest of us. Logical would be to buff assassins and mages. Create an item that is good for breaking shields.