Yorick needs sustain.

SturmPioniere··3 votes·1,088 views

Alright. Yeah. I know. "But Q does a lot of damage and gives you a bunch of health back!", you say. Well hold it right there, straw man.

If Yorick was encouraged to build like he originally did, where simply stacking a metric ton of resistances on top of your Manamune gave you phenomenal sustain by merit of the E health being effectively increased because of your durability, then 82 health and level 18 would still be too low. Sure, it gets doubled under 50% health, and since you're encouraged to build health now that is a wider margin. But it's still extremely low, especially when compared to the rest of the juggernaught class. It's at odds with his identity and building flat tank would be acceptable if it didn't gut his minion damage.

So, how to fix it?

For starters, E does too much free damage, and its mechanics facilitate it more as an easy poke and escape mechanism instead of being the "I've just baited you with the very thing my ravenous ghouls yearn for and you will soon join them" theme it's going for. Frankly? It doesn't need to do damage at all. Take its damage away. All of it. Virtually all of Yorick's weirdness could be solved by making E some variation of the following:

> ACTIVE: Yorick hurls a globule of Black Mist that splashes across an off-centered area, marking all targets hit and healing for when marked targets are struck. > YORICK PERSONAL HEAL: 1 / 2 / 3/ 4 / 5% MISSING HEALTH > All enemies hit by the globule are Slow icon slowed by 30% for 2 seconds and are marked for 4 seconds. > Yorick, his Mist Walkers, and the Maiden of the Mist gain 20% bonus movement speed when moving towards marked targets, and Mist Walkers that were near an affected champion gain the ability to leap to them on their next attack. > When a marked target is attacked by a Mist Walker, Yorick and that Mist Walker are healed for 1% of Yorick's missing health. When Yorick attacks a marked target he heals for a greater amount.

There. Knock .1 AD scaling off his Q. His window of power for dueling now rests on landing his E and going in. He remains substantially more vulnerable when not prepared with Mist Walkers and before anyone cries about the amount of sustain-- it's still less than a decent Darius or Illaoi (who are in his class) without building attack speed, but there is only one attack speed item that also grants health.

Thoughts?

26 Comments

lightdragoon882 votes

Build item 3146

BOOM. Problem solved.

SturmPioniere1 votes

{quoted}

Build item 3146

BOOM. Problem solved.

It gets the job done, but it's just a bandaid for a kit that's missing something old Yorick was known for. Plus, Death's Dance actually gets the job done better outside of the ult magic damage procs.

zacktootall2 votes

ok we know the old yorick had sustain but that does not mean new yorick has to be cut from the same cloth. why not just suck it up and be the tank?

SturmPioniere1 votes

Building flat tank means you don't do damage, which makes your new job of splitpushing difficult as you can't take towers and you can't fend off enemy champions coming to stop you. It also completely mitigates the very small healing he already gets-- 182 health at below 50% is alright when you have ~3000 health. It's completely pointless when you have 5,000. This issue is resolve in the other juggernaughts by rewarding building health with missing-health scaling heals-- why does Yorick have a flat heal on a single target spell with a ~4s cd that recovers less health then a single ADC's crit at virtually every stage in the game?

What about that says "Juggernaught" to you?

zacktootall1 votes

what about "juggernaught" says he has to have a larger amount of sustain? sure the others have sustain but what is the bigger commonality in all of them? more damage and ALOT-O-HEALTH.

ps did i say a damn thing about flat tank?

SturmPioniere1 votes

As it stands you are not rewarded for building health except for making your walkers and maiden marginally more durable. They all die rapidly regardless, however. I wouldn't be surprised if the most optimum Yorick builds quickly resolve into only getting health incidentally while getting something else as your sustain is actually vastly superior when stacking resistances and ignoring health.

Ralanr2 votes

Well Yorick isn't a tank. But I agree with the rest.

zacktootall1 votes

he is going to be more tank then most if not all the rest of the team

lightdragoon881 votes

E is magic and AP ratio and Death's Dance does not heals you for damage dealt by summoned pets, but Hextech Gunblade does.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Build item 3146

BOOM. Problem solved.

item 3812

almost all his damage scales with ad.

though i find it a bit weird that riot decided to make the heal on his q flat instead of % missing health like the other juggs. would have made more sense to make it a small flat heal vs. minions and a larger % missing health heal vs. champions.

lightdragoon881 votes

Death's Dance does not heals you for damage dealt by summoned pets, but Hextech Gunblade does.

SturmPioniere1 votes

It heals for a portion of all physical damage that is dealt that would count for an assist. As of 6.1 it was specifically bugfixed to accommodate pets.

V6.1:

Combine cost increased to 625 Gold from 525 Gold. Total cost increased to 3500 Gold from 3400 Gold. Attack damage increased to 75 from 65. Healing increased to 15% from 12%. Damage conversion increased to 15% from 12%.~ Now also heals for physical damage done by pets.

lightdragoon881 votes

Doesn't say it in the actual patch notes. Going to check in a custom.

BTW: his E and ult (and %damage when he attacks with the ult) all does magic damage, so Gunblade will heal him for those.

Elite4Runner2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ATt9zHMu,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-09-09T02:12:14.654+0000)

item 3812

almost all his damage scales with ad.

Not true.

Physical damage

  • Auto attacks
  • Mist Walkers attacks
  • Q: Last Rites

Magic Damage

  • E: Morning Mist
  • Maiden of the Mist's attacks
  • Bonus damage on auto attacks when attacking the same target as the Maiden.

Keep in mind that Morning Mist's damage is based on a percentage of the target's current health, and the bonus damage from his ult is based on a percentage of the target's maximum health. Being a meta top laner, this can be significant.

lightdragoon882 votes

Yeah I just did a custom game.

Throwing an E into a full health minion wave recover almost 20% of my health with gunblade. The heal I got from the mist walkers was a bit higher with Death's Dance but that was because they were doing more damage with DD higher AD.

So it is looking like this: if you want to do higher damage with a good sustain, then item 3812 is your choice. If you want higher sustain with good damage then go item 3146

Eedat2 votes

This reminds me of every single "The new champ needs buffs!!!!!" threads that come out the first day a champion is released.

Oh look at that, you took the new champion into RANKED on the first day without playing him a single time in norms and went 0/8. Then after one single game of uncontrolable feeding, you think you've mastered him and are qualified to speak of his balance. You have no business in ranked buddy. New/Reworked champs need to be disabled from ranked for a few weeks for this exact type of person

SturmPioniere1 votes

You might notice the enemy team had a 21/1 Lux, and most of our team had ~7 deaths, and we had a Warwick support AND I did more damage than the Ashe. Perhaps, and bear with me, because this is going to sound crazy, perhaps that match was not my fault and not only that it's irrelevant. I'm not asking for buffs. I'm asking for changes.

Yorick should get less free damage and more sustain.

Elite4Runner2 votes

{quoted}

You might notice the enemy team had a 21/1 Lux, and most of our team had ~7 deaths, and we had a Warwick support AND I did more damage than the Ashe. Perhaps, and bear with me, because this is going to sound crazy, perhaps that match was not my fault and not only that it's irrelevant. I'm not asking for buffs. I'm asking for changes.

Yorick should get less free damage and more sustain.

Even still, it is generally very frowned upon to take brand new champs, or freshly reworked champs into ranked because most likely you are not as familiar with them as you really should be in ranked gameplay, as well as the fact that your teammates are not familiar with playing with said champion on their team.

Also, there are nearly always balance issues with brand new/reworked champions immediately after release. In most cases they are actually over-tuned. This in combination with your enemy not knowing how to play against them actually makes your apparent sucess very misleading.

SturmPioniere1 votes

Generally frowned upon or not, that was a match that should have been and rightfully was, a loss for a variety of factors. It isn't part of the discussion though; the issue isn't with performance. It's that Yorick lost a significant facet of what made him Yorick, and it runs counter to the other established change and it's antithetical to the class he was reworked into-- Juggernaught.

Missing health or max health scaling is standard on every reworked Juggernaughts (*Mordekaiser and Skarner have max health scaling shields in place of life sustain). Meanwhile Yorick has a single flat health heal that is relatively weak at every single stage of the game. That's a complete 180 from not only old Yorick but his entire class.

zacktootall1 votes

basically a nerf here a buff there. you are asking for a buff but you are also asking for other things but in the honest truth you don't know what your doing at all, do you?

Ðelofasht2 votes

Yorick's sustain is not too big an issue, feels like most juggernauts, I am more concerned with graves production being fully linked to minions and monsters. Would much prefer reliable graves production so I can be effective without my Ult. Right now it feels like if you do not have you Ult then you are probably just useless at a teamfight. In fact don't bother going to the fight, just split at least you will likely get a tower with mistwalkers. (Which of course you cannot get while running to the teamfight anyhow)

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

Yorick's sustain is not too big an issue, feels like most juggernauts, I am more concerned with graves production being fully linked to minions and monsters. Would much prefer reliable graves production so I can be effective without my Ult. Right now it feels like if you do not have you Ult then you are probably just useless at a teamfight. In fact don't bother going to the fight, just split at least you will likely get a tower with mistwalkers. (Which of course you cannot get while running to the teamfight anyhow)

You make a good point on the grave production. From what I have seen, it actually becomes somewhat difficult to last hit early on if you don't have at least a little bit of AD. I'd kinda like to see the 'unit death's near you' come down statically, or be decreased based on some other factor. I think large minions and monsters could count for 2 or be a guaranteed grave.

Handy Sandy 1 votes

He JUST came out he doesn't need anything new it's not like people know how to play against him yet.

SturmPioniere1 votes

{quoted}

He JUST came out he doesn't need anything new it's not like people know how to play against him yet.

Ain't the issue, the issue is he's weak for what Yorick was known for. This isn't a balance issue (though Yorick is arguably a touch undertuned) so much as a flavour/gameplay issue.

zacktootall2 votes

last i checked any stat change is a balance issue so i believe his argument is sound

Leo10241 votes

Anyone who is a good as the new yorick is when using abilities has no sustain especially early game, a few examples are Velkoz, Lissandra, Lux, Sona, and basically any other mage

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