Taliyah Nerfs are way over the line

Muufasaaa··130 votes·27,978 views

I want to start this off by saying that I'm a taliyah OTP with over 1.6 million mastery points on her and I'm diamond 3. These nerfs to taliyah are way out of line, specifically in regards to the aoe removal on taliyah q. I think it's going to gut her and make it so that she's not going to be viable in either pro play and solo q. It's going to be harder as ever to deal as much damage as you did before and it makes no sense they would nerf e when they already nerfed q really hard. If these changes go through, I might actually consider going to another champion and not touching taliyah. Please riot revert these changes and listen to the taliyah community. We do not want the q change we are fine with any other change just keep the q with aoe. Also my op.gg is http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=papa+fuerte

135 Comments

BestPudgeNA92 votes

Riot "Hey, guys lets make a midlane mage with a kit designed to waveclear and roam" Riot "Lets remove waveclear from midlane mages, this won't negatively effect any champions"

That's why they get paid the big bucks

aswedishtiger4 votes

Where are you guys seeing the nerfs? PBE?

DeusVult17 votes

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2018/05/517-pbe-update.html#more

they are buffing her health and MS, along with a large buff to her passive. They are reducing the amount of waveclear she gets from her Q, along with an early damage decrease in her E, so that she won't be as effective in pushing her lane early.

What OP overlooks though is that her Q did get compensated in that casting Q on worked ground gives 100% mana refund. So in effect, if you have the mana, it is free.

Riot is making it so that Taliyah isnt as great for just auto shoving the wave, but in return she gets to roam faster and gets free Qs when she is sitting in lane.

AirKingNeo4 votes

Well Taliyah being a higher waveclear more powerful ult version of TF was very fucking stupid.

A Spicy Meatball6 votes

Comparing tf and taliyah? Lets look at it

Tf has: a targeted stun (probably the best stun in the game), a consistent method of mana region in-kit, decent waveclear but its only ok early, a roaming ult that is more difficult to mess up but can do less. He also can siege decently well for an AP midlaner with his E and lich bane.

Taliyah has: one of the best waveclears in the game pre-nerf (but is incredibly mana hungry), a roaming ult that is very hard to pull off but rewarding, a difficult CC to land in her W but can hit more than 1 champion if you're good unlike TF, and a unique E ability.

I'd say that TFs siege and targeted CC makes him stand out as different than taliyiah, and by no means think that Taliyah is overpowered.

Spirit Δ38 votes

I second this. The nerf will fucking kill Taliyah. I don't care that there are better champs - I want Taliyah.Taliyah

SwiftKitten8820 votes

[{quoted}](name=CE Rbrtzh,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AIkiEG7k,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-05-21T16:08:33.211+0000)

I second this. The nerf will fucking kill Taliyah. I don't care that there are better champs - I want Taliyah.Taliyah

i dont and have never played taliah, and i haven't mid laned since season 4..

and even i can tell this change is stupid.

like did riot's balance team make a bet on how quickly they could lose players?

it be lìke that38 votes

They dont care about Taliyah, she has yet to receive 1 skin even lol

SoryInAdvance3 votes

Because she's a high skill floor champion that the majority of the player base can't effectively play. Why would they make a skin for a champion that the majority of players don't touch?

ZackTheWaffleMan5 votes

You're getting downvoted, but you're mostly right.

Azteryz1 votes

they did confirm a ssw skin for her and the concept looks pretty cool

in case you didnt see that

Sexy Jack Rabbit10 votes

As always, Esports skins aren't decided by the skins team.

If it weren't for the Esports member choosing her skin, who knows when she'd get a scheduled one.

ninjaroxas26 votes

I agree, they are gutting her Q wave clear and nerfing her E. Janna is gonna clear waves faster after this

While we're at it i'd still like her old w back

Ayame Isaki14 votes

I miss the old W, I hate the vector casting.

Gorrazin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ayame Isaki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AIkiEG7k,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2018-05-21T16:49:59.194+0000)

I miss the old W, I hate the vector casting.

I'm surprised people don't know you can still use the old casting method for her W. It's in the options my dude.

Ayame Isaki2 votes

I need to find this.

FilDaFunk14 votes

Rito new algorithm: Check if X is AD champ. If not, NERF NERF NERF

Packun Flower13 votes

Are you surprised? She was a champion who was popular in the LC$ but not a standard pic, she stood up to the LCS superstar champs and did well. the result? she'll be punished and gutted into the dirt like any champion that makes its way there. Just another reason why i do not support the LC$

2CJTP611 votes

Meanwhile Aurelion Sol hovers at a 54% win-rate and is not touched. R.I.P Taliyah Most fun champ

Mr Mxyzptlk3 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile Aurelion Sol hovers at a 54% win-rate and is not touched. R.I.P Taliyah Most fun champ

Yeah but his win rate mainly comes from high elo. The chance you see someone playing him in anywhere below diamond is extremely low.

Morgan le Fey3 votes

Also his gameplay is so weird that he's is overwhelmingly main-centric. Very few people but true mains and especially OTPs play him, which artificially increases his winrate. If you see an AS, they're likely to be a good AS. There are very few people who are just sorta okay at Aurelion Sol and play him from time to time.

Revert Taliyah Q10 votes

R.I.P in peace Taliyah

Chembaron Yamada16 votes

Rest in peace in peace?

D4M2X07 votes

pointless playing ludens champs, not just a taliyah thing. mages get gutted assassins get buffed

Anime Fizz7 votes

Stopped reading at "im a taliyah otp"

Oh look, the otp doenst want their freelo nerfed, what a big surprise we have here!

ZapMyHeart20 votes

[{quoted}](name=Anime Fizz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AIkiEG7k,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2018-05-21T16:56:10.504+0000)

Stopped reading at "im a taliyah otp"

Oh look, the otp doenst want their freelo nerfed, what a big sruprise we have here!

The freelo is sitting at 47% winrate. So what do we call those champs sitting at 50%?

The JigSAW5 votes

Yasuo mains.

Ifneth7 votes

I’ve played her on PBE. You can clear waves just as fast as before—just not with the push of a button from 1,000 range with AOE. Since multiple rocks

The nerf to worry about is the Worked Ground nerf, whereby she loses the 10% haste she currently enjoys. It’s important for kiting, chasing, and staying on target.

TeCoolMage2 votes

{quoted}

I’ve played her on PBE. You can clear waves just as fast as before—just not with the push of a button from 1,000 range with AOE. Since multiple rocks

The nerf to worry about is the Worked Ground nerf, whereby she loses the 10% haste she currently enjoys. It’s important for kiting, chasing, and staying on target.

On the other hand her base MS was buffed from 325 to 340 wasn't it? So the 10% isn't as big as it seems

Ifneth2 votes

Well, it’s tricky. The live 10% movement speed buff gives her 32.5 movement speed on worked ground without boots. That’s enough to make her faster than any other champion in the game. However, off worked ground, she has only 325 movement speed. That’s among the least in the game.

Having a low movement speed but being a kiting mage effectively required the worked-ground buff: she can’t kite if she can’t run. Buffing her base movement speed to 340 would enable her to run from many more champions than you might expect by just comparing speeds. It works out to about 80% of League’s roster.

However, her peak performance would be down, since her Rank 5 Threaded Volley has a 3 second cooldown, which, at 20% cooldown reduction, is so short that a fresh Volley becomes ready just after the last one ends. That means 100% uptime, for a constant 32.5-36.5 movement speed buff.

Then there’s the feel of it. There’s nothing else like that in the game. When you push Q and start the Volley, you feel like you’re flying. That’s not to mention the pulse-pounding experience of firing one volley after another, riding the buff, as an enemy bears down on you.

However, there is a related buff to her passive, Rock Surfing. Its out of combat lockout is reduced to 2 seconds, and it grants 40% bonus movement speed right away rather than scaling from 20-40% with her level. That lockout is so short that she could actually use it during a skirmish, and having the full bonus at level 1 means more movement speed all game long. This helps roaming, escaping, and chasing enemies down on a surfboard rather than by spamming Volley.

This buff is more important than you might think. Her rank 5 Volley costs 100 mana. It’s not cheap enough to use as a speed boost. Having a free semi-combat haste would be a good substitute. I dunno. I worry this is an accidental nerf or a nerf in disguise, since the flat 10% buff might just be more consistently useful than a more-available and better conditional haste and higher base speed.

gardensala7 votes

I'm more disappointed and confused by the removal of MS on Worked Ground. I mean...that just gets rid of any potential skill expression in planning where you create WG to allow you to kite or escape ganks....

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

Except....thats never how that worked out. After level 7 you could have Q up constantly during ganks meaning you were ALWAYS under worked ground. The buff to passive adds more "skill expression" since it enforces more roaming which people that have no idea how to play the game are never going to do. Her early game roams are going to be on the level of Aurelion Sol and like Aurelion her passive buff and her base ms increase means she can hard shove and back whenever she wants and make it before the next wave crashes. Your waveclear getting nerfed doesn't mean anything when you can shove your entire kit into 1 wave and come back with full mana.

Poske6 votes

You do realise it ll no longer deal reduced damage to minions and your E is big wavecontrol tool to

ninjaroxas22 votes

Which doesn't matter since at best a full volley will kill 2 minions, they also nerfed her E so there goes that

cocacolalips6 votes

The Q AoE is only noticeable when hitting minions, I don't think I've ever hit more than one champion with it, whichever champion is in front of me takes all the damage.

That means changing her Q from AoE to single target only affects her waveclear. But Taliyah has other spells she can use to waveclear, that means Taliyah will have to use her E and possibly her W to waveclear efficiently now as opposed to only her Q (which you already do when you are pressured under the turret)

In that sense, it's really not different from Zed or Azir, who have to use their W to kill an entire minion wave, which as a result tends to leave them vulnerable since those spells double as escape / playmaking tools.

tldr: the "nerf" is for all intents and purposes insignificant when it comes to her general gameplay but a clever move to address her grossly overtuned laning phase and unfair waveclear.

AmenPerson5 votes

Okay, so, I don't play Taliyah really, so I don't reaaally understand how these changes to her are a nerf. Most of them feel like a buff.

Increased base HP, a good thing no matter who you're playing, increased based MS, along with the change to her passive seems like it's going to make her the best roaming mage in the game, she's now going to get 100% of her Mana back when using her Q on worked ground,her Q loses the reduced damage on extra hits on the same minion, and her cooldowns are lowered for her Q and W at earlier ranks.

Like, I can only see a few nerfs, and it just looks like a good change to Taliyah.

SaltiestSandwich4 votes

{quoted}

Okay, so, I don't play Taliyah really, so I don't reaaally understand how these changes to her are a nerf. Most of them feel like a buff.

Increased base HP, a good thing no matter who you're playing, increased based MS, along with the change to her passive seems like it's going to make her the best roaming mage in the game, she's now going to get 100% of her Mana back when using her Q on worked ground,her Q loses the reduced damage on extra hits on the same minion, and her cooldowns are lowered for her Q and W at earlier ranks.

Like, I can only see a few nerfs, and it just looks like a good change to Taliyah.

The huge nerf is to her AoE. If that gets removed then she'll pretty much be irrelevent in laning and in teamfights. They just need to put their tank in front and they'll eat everything while the others behind them are completely safe. Her E isn't a good zoning tool anymore, it's a joke at this point. Her ulti timer is going from 6-8 seconds up from to a flat 5 seconds. Those are the really big nerfs that'll make her unplayable, but hey! we get 10% movement speed.

AmenPerson4 votes

Eh, the AoE in teamfights doesn't really matter, it's a really small AoE. Laning phase, yes I can see how it is a nerf sadly, only slightly offset by the lose of the minion reduced damage.

To be exact though, here's the context of these changes. I wish I didn't have to go to the reddit to find this, but hey.

https://i.imgur.com/gD0mZoU.png?noredirect

I do hope they follow through with that increase of dash damage though.

SaltiestSandwich3 votes

{quoted}

Eh, the AoE in teamfights doesn't really matter, it's a really small AoE. Laning phase, yes I can see how it is a nerf sadly, only slightly offset by the lose of the minion reduced damage.

To be exact though, here's the context of these changes. I wish I didn't have to go to the reddit to find this, but hey.

https://i.imgur.com/gD0mZoU.png

I do hope they follow through with that increase of dash damage though.

The AoE in teamfights doesn't make too much a difference but taking it away will still feel worse. As for E I hope they do follow through with the dash damage so it's actually a danger zone and not a dance floor.

Zeromatsu6 votes

The base hp increase is a joke. They lowered the base hp one or two patches before.

Now she gets it back and ppl are like: oh thats a nice buff. Just a marketing trick.

Increased movement speed is to compensate for the lack of movement speed from worked ground.

So overall I would say it's a power shift, not a buff.

woodvsmurph5 votes

Taliyah has only been a top tier pick because the meta has been all about snowballing your adc. And taliyah's kit is designed to do just that sort of thing. It's not that she's got crazy good stats or damage or anything; literally just that she can clear waves and snowball side lanes with her ganks better than a lot of other champs. I don't know why they punish champs for being good at their job... other than adc's.

If they really wanted to "nerf" her, they should look at making mages stronger or making adc's meaningfully weaker. Sure the upcoming changes to adc's delay their power spike a bit, but it also leaves them arguably much stronger late game than they are now. Which just makes snowballing them even more important. They just don't get it. If we wanted a game of everyone running around shooting people and nobody else matters except for cc and meat shielding purposes, we'd go play cod or csgo. We play league because it is SUPPOSED to offer divirsity: swords, spears, guns, magic, etc. Not just some damn bows and guns.

RocketRelm2 votes

It also arguably makes the game more about snowballing the ADC, because while your ADC comes online a little slower, the impact of putting their ADC in the dirt is amplified so much.

Netorare4 votes

Riot loves nerfing champs that require skill and that's a fact...

PaffWasTaken4 votes

The real question is... from all the cr*p that is in the game right now, why nerf Taliyah?

Neptunia xoxo3 votes

So now you can't just mindlessly spam Q on wave and push into tower the entire game? wow

ninjaroxas3 votes

Ya, let's ignore all the other champs that can do that just fine

FabWarlock3 votes

Like the first post said. Issue is not a Taliyah thing, but more about most mages being in a bad spot right now with most assassins being better nowadays. Zed, Fizz, LeBlanc, and Katarina are infinitely better picks nowadays instead of some waveclear mages like Taliyah, Syndra, Ahri, Lux. Mages can't dish out enough DPS while assassins have a lot of burst, and some specific assassins have lots of safety/mobility like LeBlanc, Zed, and Fizz.

Semper Aethereum3 votes

I want to say that I'm also a OTP with 1.1M master points. Got to Plat 1 before my father died and I tilted to gold. The changes to Q are not good. Removing MS buff on worked ground negates strategic worked ground placement and the AoE removal on Q is unacceptable and will kill her pushing and trading power. This COULD HAVE been acceptable had Riot buffed E but instead there is also an E damage nerf. This will kill the Taliyah play-style, her win rate in soloq, and her presences in competitive. I too am looking to switch to another champion as this stone weaver seems to be about to be royally executed by Riot's nerf guillotine.

Here is my op.gg

CydonianKnight143 votes

Honestly, I just want a skin

Cute Vegan Boy3 votes

Another Taliyah main here.

While playing Taliyah, her main problem is lane priority. She OWNS the lane, especially when playing against other passive mages like orianna.

If Taliyah's design philosophy is to have obscene waveclear, but not let her be able to use it all the time to incentivize roaming, then make her AoE lost when using Q on worked ground. Riot's current outlook is to nerf her waveclear overall, which won't allow her to roam. She's literally designed to be a roaming champion. Put her emphasis more on roaming, while nerfing her ability to stay in lane.

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