Jayce's base health

VegetableFoe··9 votes·2,169 views

So I was just playing a game against a Jayce and I was playing Zyra. As a lvl 8, I looked at the lvl 10 Jayce's health and saw that he had 500 more health than me. He's a higher level than me, Zyra has one of the lowest base healths in the game, he's probably running 9 points in the defense tree, and he probably has scaling health seals which are now slightly ahead of my flat health seals, but that does not add up even remotely to 500. As the game went on, he bought a Black Cleaver, which gives 200 health, and he now had more than 800 more health than me. I had to know for myself after the game, what is Jayce's health.

The answer I found was "SHOCKING".

Jayce has the 24th highest base health in the game. He's tied with Jarvan, he beats out Mundo, Thresh, Xin Zhao, Nasus, Braum, Leona, Renekton, Amumu, Volibear, Jax, Nautilus, Vi, Nocturne, Rammus, Wukong, Shen, and Lee Sin just to name some melee "tanks" that he beats out. Admittedly, some of those have free defensive abilities built in - Mundo's ultimate regen, Nasus/Renekton ultimate health gain, Braum/Leona free resistances. But Jayce gets free resistances too, with his R in cannon form. The only ranged champion in the game with higher base health than him is Kayle. The only other ranged champion that comes close is Nidalee, and then it's a huge drop down to Kog'maw and Miss Fortune who lead off the bottom half of the list with all of the ranged champions. Every champion above Jayce in terms of health is a full melee champion or an "all in" champion, such as Diana, except for Kayle.

The most similar champions to Jayce are Nidalee and Elise. None of them get MR/lvl, they all have a ranged and a melee form with "6" abilities. Elise is actually all the way down at 1835 health at lvl 18, whereas Jayce is 2040 and Nidalee is 2010. I think Nidalee's health is somewhat justified because despite her spear being comparable to Jayce's Q+E combo in poke ability, she actually can't kill someone in ranged form unless they die from that one ability since her other two ranged abilities do no direct damage. On the other hand, Jayce has more than enough damage to kill someone in ranged form. He builds pure AD which means his ranged auto attacks matter greatly, compared to Nidalee, and his W is enough damage to kill someone (in my game, there was a point where Jayce hit his Muramana and his three W shots killed me from 100% health). Both Nidalee and Elise need to go into their melee form to finish people off, but Jayce can sit in his ranged form and be an effective damage dealer without ever putting himself in danger. Elise could probably use a base health buff, as an aside, but that's not what I'm here to say. I'm here to say that Jayce does not deserve to have this high of base health. Jayce's counterplay is being able to catch him, either by a flank or a long range CC ability, but when you catch him he has more health than tanks do, and he can pop his R and then E to disengage and get free tank stats as well.

Please nerf Jayce's base health. This is an absurd outlier in base stats and Jayce's playstyle as a champion is undeserving of base stats trying to compensate. If his base health is there to make up for the fact that he can be a melee champion, he is a whole league ahead of some full tank melee champions. I think a good number sounds like 420 + 80 (it's currently 420 + 90), since at early levels he very well could need his melee form to finish people off. But as the game goes on, his health per level gives him a large amount of power that isn't needed. Akin to what they have said in the patch notes videos, when you think of Jayce, you think of his Q+E poke and the large amount of damage he can put out, you don't think of his health (they talked about Lux having an absurdly high movement speed for a mage). Jayce's health and resistances in cannon form don't define the champion, they just give him a large source of extraneous power.

21 Comments

360D3GR3SS6 votes

He is also already extremely squishy.

VegetableFoe3 votes

He is somewhat squishy in that he's not going to "soak up damage" as people like to put it for tanks. The only health and resistances he's likely to buy are Black Cleaver (200 health), Hexdrinker (25 MR and 250 effective health vs. magic, 40 MR and 400 effective health vs. magic once upgraded), Trinity Force (250 health), Doran's Blade early game (70 health), and potentially a Banshee's Veil or Guardian Angel late game just like a lot of carries. But his base health, potentially combined with his free 35 armor/MR he gets at lvl 18 (he doesn't like to upgrade his ultimate until lvl 16, 17, 18), put him frighteningly close to bruisers like Jax/Renekton/Trundle/Udyr in terms of durability. Obviously he's not buying Randuin's, Banshee's, Spirit Visage, Sunfire, Thornmail, etc. in the mid game as a tank would, but he is unfairly tanky without ever having to itemize for it. He's about as durable as a jungler who goes Elder Lizard, buys Hexdrinker, and then a Giant's Belt - except with the amount of farm he gets as a solo laner and not having to buy that Giant's Belt or the jungle item, he'll have a Manamune, Brutalizer, and probably the workings of a Last Whisper.

360D3GR3SS1 votes

If you are trying to suggest his core problem is his Base HP I am going to have to disagree. He is a fairly low risk champion, but if you catch him with his guard down he will get instantly taken out. I believe his base hp is warranted because if he wants to do any real bursting he needs to get pretty close....I really have not had any major issues against him. I see why is an attractive pick but mages in general out range him. Alot of his power comes from his ranged form W I suggest reducing its scaling significantly to something like 70/85/94/108/120.

Remlap12231 votes

Where'd you get those numbers from? You had a good start and then your cat walked across your keyboard or something. 70 / 85 / 100 / 115 / 130%. And most nobody maxes his W until endgame anyways. So until you hit 15, his "empowered" ranged auto attacks actually deal LESS damage. But that's none of my business.

360D3GR3SS2 votes

Where'd you get those numbers from? You had a good start and then your cat walked across your keyboard or something. 70 / 85 / 100 / 115 / 130%. And most nobody maxes his W until endgame anyways. So until you hit 15, his "empowered" ranged auto attacks actually deal LESS damage. But that's none of my business.

False. Most people max his W second. I was suggesting those numbers, I am aware of his damage with W ranged form. Please read my post carefully next time.

Remlap12231 votes

Ok reread it and downvoted. Why are you nerfing those values? There's no reason to and the scaling is batshit. I mean, it jumps to 15% on the first level, then 9 on the second, then back up to 14, and then down to 12 again? Are you kidding me? That's ridiculous and cripples Jayce unecessarily. Jayce doesn't need to be nerfed, he was considered underpowered before he got eSuprted by SSW and suddenly he's OP now.

360D3GR3SS1 votes

So you clearly did NOT read my post well, I said "to something like 70/85/94/108/120". I was giving an example for you, not stating the values NEED TO BE THAT AND ONLY THAT.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

he´s building squishy, but he´s not inherrently squishy. That´s a huge difference.

360D3GR3SS1 votes

Tank Jayce new Meta? Nawwww, because he is meant to be built squishy.

I Greencard l2 votes

Stopped reading when i read HP runes.

Jayce has very hard counters. Play them.

SionideCN2 votes

Stopped reading when i read HP runes.

Jayce has very hard counters. Play them.

But... HP runes have been viable for quite some time

Stars Shaper2 votes

The fact that Jayce has to chain 8 skills to kill some1 and is far less tanky than any other melee (except Yasuo lol) didn't cross your mind once though.

VegetableFoe2 votes

The entire point here is that he is naturally more tanky than any other ranged champion, and he is plenty tankier than a boatload of melee champions. Everyone who has more base health than him actually needs it because they have to "brawl" to kill someone, or at least put themself in a very vulnerable position (Diana, she has to be fed to one shot someone, even if she can she'll have no cooldowns and be vulnerable), with the exception of Kayle which I'll accept because of her DPS rather than burst playstyle.

Jayce, on the other hand, can kill bruisers with Q+E and then W, and apparently kill mages with just W. And he buys over 300 AD + Muramana for his autos and has short cooldowns so he doesn't have to leave his ranged form if he doesn't want to. He has the health that a melee tank should have, but he's a safe ranged hero like an AD carry, but he gets 300 more health than what AD carries get.

Health is the base stat that matters the most in terms of tankiness. Armor values don't deviate enough from each other to matter, magic resist/lvl is generally sorted out by only giving it to melee champions, but health stretches across 678 from the lowest to the highest - the champion with the most health is over 42% more durable than the champion with the lowest health. Jayce is flat out about 20% more durable than his class of champion should be.

Remlap12232 votes

The entire point here is that he is naturally more tanky than any other ranged champion, and he is plenty tankier than a boatload of melee champions.

REEEAAAALLY?

JAYCE

HEALTH: 420 + 90 per level HEALTH REGEN.: 6 + 0.8 per level ARMOR: 16.5 + 3.5 per level MAGIC RESIST: 30 + 0 per level

LUCIAN

HEALTH 420 (+80) HEALTH REGEN. 5.1 (+0.65) ARMOR 19 (+3) MAGIC RES. 30 (+0)

So apparently, he's SOOO much tankier than like, almost every bruiser in the game, and yet Lucian almost ties with him.

And btw, Jayce isn't ranged, he's a melee/ranged hybrid much like Gnar and Nidalee. Another thing you may find interesting... he doesn't have MR per level. That must be a mistake. Oh that's right, cuz he's got ranged attacks. No melee champs besides Shen and Singed for whatever reason lack MR per level. Any champ that has a ranged attack loses their MR per level.

I think the final nail in your argument's coffin is the existance of my main, Gangplank, who's Q is counted as a melee attack, and is so much his bread and butter he might as well be counted as a ranged champ with a super slow AA that costs mana. He's got scaling MR per level, and the highest base health in the game, and scaling health only a little behind Jayce's.

Did you hear that? That's the sond of your argument just Fizzling out.

Everyone who has more base health than him actually needs it because they have to "brawl" to kill someone, or at least put themself in a very vulnerable position (Diana, she has to be fed to one shot someone, even if she can she'll have no cooldowns and be vulnerable), with the exception of Kayle which I'll accept because of her DPS rather than burst playstyle. Jayce, on the other hand, can kill bruisers with Q+E and then W, and apparently kill mages with just W. And he buys over 300 AD + Muramana for his autos and has short cooldowns so he doesn't have to leave his ranged form if he doesn't want to. He has the health that a melee tank should have, but he's a safe ranged hero like an AD carry, but he gets 300 more health than what AD carries get.

Jayce's poke can't stand alone unless he's either fed or the person he's sniping is at virtually no health, or is a carry with no GA built. And I'm calling major bullshit on the W-mage instakill. One of the biggest gripes about Jayce (before SSW played him and the "OMG JAYCE OP" and Pandora's Box was opened) was that his Q couldn't stand alone, and the huge cooldown discrepancy between his ranged Q and E was too big. As a pretty big Jayce player, I noticed that at max I'll be able to make one Q empowered for every 16 seconds from acceleration gate. And Jayce's unbuffed Q for the most part is goddamn useless.

Also as a pretty big Jayce player, who has built Jayce as both a straight bot lane ADC and a bruiser, I gotta ask, have you actually tried focusing Jayce? I know people focus me when I play him, and I certainly am not walking away unscathed when 5 people engage me, even if I'm building bruiser, unlike a certain champion I claimed to have mained Gangplank. So does that mean GP's OP? Hell to the no. Is Jayce OP because he's got ranged poke and more sustain and survivability than ADCs because he's meant to be a bruiser? Once again. HELL NO.

Soapbox rant continued...

Kobold2 votes

Are... Are you me? Cause as a GP main and a player who binge played Jayce for a while you sound like me.

Remlap12231 votes

Woah... Jinx

Remlap12231 votes

Health is the base stat that matters the most in terms of tankiness. Armor values don't deviate enough from each other to matter, magic resist/lvl is generally sorted out by only giving it to melee champions, but health stretches across 678 from the lowest to the highest - the champion with the most health is over 42% more durable than the champion with the lowest health. Jayce is flat out about 20% more durable than his class of champion should be.

Jayce has two choices:

  1. Stay in melee range, get slightly more armor and a disengage move at the risk of having to facecheck everything.
  2. Get virtually no armor and magic resistance, no disengage, but a helluva lotta poke and a ranged attack.

The fact of the matter is this, Jayce's poke sucks without the acceleration gate. It does virtually no damage, and is slow as fuck. Stick an acceleration gate on it, and it fucking hurts. But if you miss it, you just chunked your mana. Jayce is heavily gated by mana costs and substantial cooldowns that require you to stay in form if you wish to have the abilities ready, unlike another champion that does the same thing (I'm looking at you sexy stripper kitty Nidalee.)

Jayce's strong early game poke is balanced by substantial mana costs. Basically, in order to do what Nidalee could do, Jayce has to spend twice as much mana. The problem is that people will whine about his abilities doing to much damage. All you have to do is dodge! Jayce's abilities have freaking HUGE tells to them. This isn't Blitzcrank where if you get hit, you're instantly fucked because a carry's going to start wailing on you. You're going to take a lot of damage, but you just keep your distance. Jayce can't sustain well in lane until he builds triforce, and if the dude can't manage his mana with his passive, he's going to have to build manamane.

And like I've said beforehand, Jayce is not an ADC. He's not built for that. His range is too low, and his poke is too cooldown gated and mana intensive to be consistent. Sivir gets a pass because she has ridiculous poke, and a crapton of sustain through her E. Sivir gets a passive movement buff if she hits her abilities, and constantly resets if you keep doing damage. Jayce gets movement buffs by switching stances, but you're only going to be doing that on you way to lane to get there faster. And to further shit on the JAYCE ADC HURR DURR argument, do you want to know why Jayce isn't played bot ADC, and do you want to know why I just do it to fuck around in norms? Because he gets kited like nobody's business. Kiting Jayce with a ranged champion just screws him over so bad. Jayce needs to go all in in his melee form to do damage, and Jayce has to land his +QE to do damage in his ranged form, and if he misses, he loses a huge amount of mana, two extremely powerful abilities, and pretty much any chance of finishing with a melee initiation.

VegetableFoe2 votes

I didn't say he was an ADC. He's a ranged champion. He's like Syndra or Lux and actually he's very comparable to Quinn. The thing is, he has a 300-350 health advantage over these champions at lvl 18.

This bothered me because in my game there were several instances where I landed my Grasping Roots on him as Zyra, once even using my entire combo + Ignite + having my Caitlyn there to follow up, and he kept on living. I couldn't pick him off. I would get into his range and CC him, but he wouldn't die because he had too much health to kill. Usually mid laners have a lot more health than me purely due to level advantage, but it I was appalled that Jayce had 500 more health than me, or what another mage with double Doran's (I had Sightstone) would have, without itemizing health. Any other mid laner and I would have killed them every time. I didn't mean to say he IS a bruiser or he IS a tank, simply that he has about 150-250 more health than a champion of his class should have.

I won't make two separate posts, but in regards to Lucian, that's nowhere even close. 180 greater health at lvl 18, that means more than 100 additional health for a majority of the game. At least 10% more durable than Lucian just off of health. He should have more health than Lucian, yes, but he should fit in around Yasuo and Zed and Elise.

I have no problems with his damage output, I don't think Jayce is "OP", it's just that Jayce's health is a major outlier and failure in base stats that needs to be addressed. Similar to Jax earlier in the season getting his health gutted since it was an outlier, and Tristana getting her attack speed gutted since she had the 3rd highest at lvl 18 before her Q steroid. Jayce's health and Riven's health regen are really the only two base stats I know of that are just absurd in the game now.

Remlap12232 votes

ITT: people whine about Jayce because SSW played him a bunch, while he was considered extremely UP beforehand. This is why I hate eSports. You play Ryze top before it becomes meta, people report you for trolling. You play him after, people whine that you "abuse freelo."

OhWOWsoTrendy1 votes

Jayce has been hidden OP for monthhhhhhhs. It took people a while to realize if you have any skill at all that you can win most lanes with him and carry others.

ILoveTiramisu1 votes

I think jayce will be Rivened(or Sivired) in next season.

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