When are we taking mages out of top lane?

Chang Ahn·Mar 4, 2020·1 votes·6,913 views

Why are mages allowed to auto-win top lane into melee matchups, allowed to have infinite poke, cc, damage, at range, while not having any way for most melee champions to have any way to actually touch them in response??? What does a Nasus do to a Ryze, besides getting tower dived 1v1 after getting 400 damage through his wave from the Ryze at level 2? What does a Garen do to a Neeko, what does a Darius do to a Vlad, what does an Aatrox do to a Karma, and why do all of these champions then ALSO get to SCALE into the late game better than most melee champs, while having stupidly high damage in lane, and better roaming potential, and more ways to win the lane and from there impact the game?

Also, why the fuck are statchecks allowed? They are not healthy for the game.

64 Comments

LanceTheJunglerMar 4, 20207 votes

Mages are no where near as much a problem in top lane as juggernauts are. As long as juggernauts exist to auto win melee matchups ranged will exist to counter those overtuned juggernauts.

Chang AhnMar 4, 20204 votes

Uhh, "overtuned juggernauts" like Morde, who is actually a mage? Or Sylas, who is actually a mage? Or Vladimir, who is actually a mage? Or Swain, who is, oh you get the picture.

Suffice to say, Darius will never be as big of a concern as Morde so long as morde is allowed to build AP and still get tanky.

EedatMar 4, 20209 votes

Morde, who is actually a mage?

Might be the dumbest thing I've read here all week tbh

crippler38Mar 5, 20204 votes

I don't agree Morde is a mage but I should clarify that when people say mage they mean have access to AP itemization, which is pretty good itemization.

EedatMar 5, 20203 votes

Thats like saying Darius is an ADC because he has access to AD itemization

Z3SIeeperMar 5, 20202 votes

We have to accept that 90% of the playerbase will never use the subclassification system.

We're forever stuck with the caveman logic of:

AD = Bruiser/Assassin/ADC AP = Mage Not AD or AP = Tank/Enchanter But also sometimes Bruiser = Tank too

Diver/Jugg/Skirmisher/Vanguard/Warden/Catcher/Battlemage/Burst Mage/Artillery Mage? What are those?

RyzeReworkMar 5, 20201 votes

I mean the only one that fits all the categories is Sylas

DimwittMar 5, 20202 votes

LeeSin The man has a song all about how busted he is for a reason.

EedatMar 5, 20202 votes

I understand but at that point there really is zero point in attempting to have a discussion about gameplay if people cant even tell the difference between a mage and a juggernaut. If their understanding of the game is so poor that you lump Morde and Xerath into the same class "because AP damage" then it's probably best to just roll your eyes and move on

Chang AhnMar 5, 20202 votes

Morde is a juggernaut who builds like a mage. He is, for all intents and purposes in this discussion, a mage.

EedatMar 5, 20202 votes

Morde is a juggernaut

"Morde is (not a mage)"

He is, for all intents and purposes in this discussion, a mage.

Your logic is impeccable. Absolutely flawless.

LanceTheJunglerMar 5, 20203 votes

No clue what you are even trying to say but let me explain. My enemy first picks morde darius illaoi or sett. There are VERY FEW bruisers I can pick into those champions and only a single tank. And this is assuming I'm not forced to first pick. I'm much better off picking Vlad and getting a free laning phase I can convert into better teamfighting. Also Darius is a better champion than Mordekaiser in nearly everyway. Better early, gets to run ghost because has complete lane control, ghost means he has better teamfighting and opportunity to get ahead and enforce his lead, meaning he has effectively a better late and mid.

ThefrostyvikingMar 4, 20205 votes

Any kind of ranged champ will keep going top as long as a number of melee remain auto win lanephase against more ordinary melee with the downside of autolosing against ranged.

Who would ever say no to a free win?

...

But for the record, Aatrox and Darius actually win a lot of ranged matchups as far as i know.

Chang AhnMar 4, 20204 votes

Darius wins some ranged matchups. Mostly into mid-range burst mages like Cassio/Ryze, due to his ability to just get 2 first and run them down with Phase Rush/Ghost, But sustain damage mages and spellslingers (Neeko, Lucian) and drain-tank mages (Vlad, Morde, Swain, etc) absolutely stomp his face in. I'm not knowledgeable about Aatrox to actually know his matchups perfectly, but I think it's kinda the opposite with him, where he wins against sustain damage mages and spellslingers and drain-tank mages lose to him (because of how much more sustained his own healing is) and he loses hard to burst mages like Cassio/Ryze, due to his sustained healing not being able to keep up with their burst damage.

billa2314Mar 4, 20201 votes

You can also build an early mortal reminder to help with the sustain mages (vlad, Morde, Swain) and or a QSS to counter the morde ult.

LordGeovanniMar 4, 20203 votes

mortal reminder is a waste of gold to non assassin melee top laners that just diverts any power you would have gotten to 800 gold later and less because you are giving up a slot that is blocking other things. the sustain mages still beat you any way cause they bursting you cause you didnt automatically go into magic resist to survive their combo burst.

FSRERMar 4, 20205 votes

To be honest, anything that does not belong Toplane and yet somehow finds its way back there, straight up dominates the biggest part of Toplane's normal roster. And that would not be that bad all things considered because we have seen the same things in other lanes (for example, tanks like Sion/Maokai going mid, Bruisers going bot etc) but the problem here is that all other champions except Toplane ones, can carry a game, Toplaner's can't. Just like you said, Vladimir, the one champion that people are so delusional on that will even call him balanced. He can win most matchups and even those that can beat him (Yorick for example) will have way less impact on the game than he will have. This unfortunately is a phenomenon that at this point, can not be changed and in order for us to become anywhere close to relevant to the game, a global lowering in damage would have to happen (which would not affect Toplane) which is impossible.

LatetotheRaceMar 4, 20203 votes

" global lowering in damage would have to happen, which is impossible." Or rather the Chinese player base said no, so riot agreed. Sadly the Asian market has severely marred the quality of the game and will likely continue to do so until it's eventual demise.

Ni Hui Shu DeMar 4, 20205 votes

Remove ADCs first then we’ll talk about mages. Fucking Hashinshin.

Chang AhnMar 4, 20204 votes

I don't recall ever saying that I think that ADCs in top lane aren't a problem, although they are a lot more niche than mages. Vayne does super well top lane for her high mobility and her percent health true damage, for example. Lucian was super good top with Press The Attack because he could q-auto-auto you and do half your health while procing the PTA. Ryze, Cassio, Morde, Neeko, Vlad, and Swain are way too oppressive for melee laners, and especially those first 4, Ryze, Cassio, Morde, and Neeko, do way too much damage for how difficult it is to punish them for it.

EedatMar 4, 20204 votes

https://u.gg/lol/champions/vayne/build?role=top https://u.gg/lol/champions/lucian/build?role=top

Legit trash tier picks. "does super well" "super good"

Chang AhnMar 5, 20201 votes

https://u.gg/lol/champions/vayne/matchups?role=top&rank=master_plus&patch=10_4

https://u.gg/lol/champions/lucian/matchups?role=top&patch=10_4&rank=master_plus

What an actual fucking dog.

EedatMar 5, 20202 votes

Let us all take a moment and admire the irony of a 30% win rate iron player attempting to quote Master+ data as relevant to him.

Now let's take another moment to admire the irony of the exact site he just attempted to use puts top Vayne in Master+ at 45% win rate out of a game shattering 29 total matches

https://u.gg/lol/champions/vayne/build?role=top&rank=master

I refuse to degrade dogs by comparing you to one. You are far below their level

WoonStruckMar 5, 20202 votes

Vlad has never been oppressive to melee laners pretty much ever. Impossible to push out of lane? maybe.

But EVERY melee laner had significant advantages over him before level 9 since his release. His base MS, base stats, and base damages have never been great, and when trades and laning lasted longer, that was an even bigger deal. He loses to the large majority of match-ups top lane pretty hard. His only choice is to afk farm. That's the ONLY reason he goes top. To AFK farm.

You just don't know how to play ranged match-ups. Admit that at least.

You can never call Vlad oppressive when Quinn, Vayne, Lucian, Lulu, Neeko, Cass, Ryze, etc exist.

Chang AhnMar 5, 20202 votes

"His base MS"

Phase Rush

"Base Stats"

Sanguine Pool makes barely below average base armor/mr irrelevant, and his passive is balanced on a razor's fucking edge

"Base Damages"

Empowered Q at rank 2 does 250 damage?

"he loses to the majority of matchups top lane pretty hard"

https://u.gg/lol/champions/vladimir/matchups?role=top&rank=master_plus&patch=10_4 no he doesn't

"His only choice is to afk farm. That's the ONLY reason he goes top. To AFK farm."

https://u.gg/lol/champions/vladimir/matchups?role=top&rank=master_plus&patch=10_4 no it's not, no it's not.

"You just don't know how to play ranged match-ups. Admit that at least."

you literally have no fucking clue what you're talking about.

Sanity x AgonyMar 5, 20205 votes

Imagine having less base ad than fucking support champions Kennen Neeko Crybaby melee mains making top lane ranged champions get gutted. But hey, enjoy the adcs and supports going top now.

LanceTheJunglerMar 5, 20202 votes

Seems like you are the one crying LMAO.

Sanity x AgonyMar 5, 20204 votes

Says the guy who raged on one of my post cause he hates Kennen and other ranged top laners. But you still would rather fight a soraka or adc top rather than the champions that actually belong top?

LanceTheJunglerMar 5, 20201 votes

You are literally the only one raging here bud. Stay mald. I rather fight bruisers, the only class that should be playable top lane.

Sanity x AgonyMar 5, 20201 votes

{quoted}

You are literally the only one raging here bud. Stay mald. I rather fight bruisers, the only class that should be playable top lane.

lol i'm not raging at all, i'm just telling you top lane will never be melee only. Where exactly are most of the ranged top laners gonna go then if you kick them out of top? Teemo Quinn Kennen Can't play them mid, they get out pushed on wave clear and out poked by most mages. Ryze Vladimir Are the only ones who are even viable mid lane. There will also always be that person who plays an adc or ranged mid laner top. Top lane will never be bruiser only even if all these champions are reworked. Keep dreaming.

LanceTheJunglerMar 5, 20201 votes

Eh I shit on all of those champs idrc.

TeémòMar 5, 20205 votes

summoner 6 item 3155 summoner 3 summoner 4 Bruisers don't realize they arguably have some of the best itemization in the game. item 3044 Champs like Urgot Darius can only be so bad. But that drop off means they can only be so good too. Same goes to Teemo ryze can be b.s he's gotten so many dang reworks because of it, but mages like Swain Cassiopeia Chogath Gragas Maokai Fizz Nautilus etc have all found their places in top. And just because champs aren't specifically mages, doesn't mean they won't do ap damage. Jax Shyvana Warwick I don't think mages are impossible, they just aren't dealt with the same way. potions+ those healing cookies that give perma mana though. Ekko xD

Chang AhnMar 5, 20203 votes

"some of the best itemization in the game" Riiiiight, I forgot that bruisers have access to item 3157 and item 3040 and item 3089 , right? Huh... Wait a minute here, that sounds wrong.

The thigh guyMar 6, 20202 votes

{quoted}

Bruisers don't realize they arguably have some of the best itemization in the game. Champs like can only be so bad. But that drop off means they can only be so good too. Same goes to ryze can be b.s he's gotten so many dang reworks because of it, but mages like etc have all found their places in top. And just because champs aren't specifically mages, doesn't mean they won't do ap damage. I don't think mages are impossible, they just aren't dealt with the same way. potions+ those healing cookies that give perma mana though. xD

Right? It’s not the 2/3 of the defensive items that actually work in this game are bruiser items.

RoamcellMar 6, 20201 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEHeZrgJ,comment-id=000c0001,timestamp=2020-03-06T00:33:33.596+0000)

Right? It’s not the 2/3 of the defensive items that actually work in this game are bruiser items.

And are made against other bruisers, and are shit against the typical mage. :rollseyes:

The thigh guyMar 6, 20201 votes

{quoted}

And are made against other bruisers, and are shit against the typical mage. :rollseyes:

Deaths dance and sterak’s alone shit on any and every mage. But stay delusional hashinshin.

billa2314Mar 4, 20204 votes

Because it is a team game. The ideal is if they push past mid, your jg will help gank them and make it a 2 v 1. Really you are suppose to farm for a while in this game CS, or co-ordinate ganks with your jg. Problem is in solo queue you are right, your jg won't come help you when outranged, or worse the time you finally get an advantage because they are low mana, and go in, their jg will gank so you can never cross mid part of your lane safely to apply tower pressure.

It sucks being outranged, I get it totally. If game is played as a team, it is easier, but usually if like me and say "can you gank top please, they are overextended and I'm getting zoned out from cs" Jg response "Play safe" or none happens way to much and then yep, you lose because of cs lead and they outscale you in long run. Or love this response "You took Garen into Neeko noob, your own fault" never mind she picked after you and counter picked you.

Chang AhnMar 4, 20207 votes

"it is a team game, the ideal is if they push past mid your jungle will help gank them and make it a 2v1" except that doesn't address the fact that Ryze has a combo on a 4 second cd at level 2

That does 400 damage

While being a scaling Late game Ranged Mage Who gets bulkier than I do for several hundred gold less, while also having more damage and better scaling on his item's abilities.

Do you maybe understand that "it's a team game" doesn't address or change mages all being lane bullies while also outscaling and out-tanking you at all stages of the game.

billa2314Mar 4, 20206 votes

So you want 0 counter-play and want to make it so team doesn't matter ??

I get it, Ryze hurts against melee, and yes he is a counter to them. Just down voting a response you don't like that is constructive and true to the nature of the game does nothing but make it look like your raging and want to 1 v 1 everyone and not rely on your team.

Garen scales late game also, he is a bruiser/tank that is designed to do a lot of damage in melee range and he will do so if he can connect. Ryze is a counter, so you can't 1 v 1 him, but you will destroy anyone you get onto. Counter play is a good thing, and it takes a team to win. Sorry your struggling vs a counter, good luck man.

If your struggling with mages, try building Spirit Visage, Hexdrinker, anti magic boots, taking tenacity in your rune tree, those will help with the damage and the stun times.

LordGeovanniMar 4, 20205 votes

the counter play to most top laners is stay out of their range which mages can do really easily but they shouldnt be able to do that and deleting fighters and tanks out of top denying them farm and instagibing them when they walk up.

billa2314Mar 4, 20202 votes

The counter play for the fighter is to let the wave push, farm closer to tower, make them over-extend, and jg or mid roam to to help with a gank because they over extended. Punish them for their mistake. This is the problem with a team game that doesn't have teams that work together. People don't know how to actually play the game, but they want to complain about it being broke. You have counter items you can build. All your post says to me is, I can't 1 v 1 them so they are broke, I don't want to rely on my team. I get that point, team will let you down in Solo Queue a lot, but that doesn't make them broke.

Chang AhnMar 4, 20204 votes

Except that means that the only way for you to win your lane is to lose your lane. If you're staying back and farming under tower when the wave pushes to you, he's getting 40, 50, 60 cs leads on you by 15 minutes. What if, as in my last game, your teammates just don't show top, after they deliberately set up the wave to freeze at the nasus's tower and then wonder why you aren't able to fight him 4 minutes later. Why should the only viable way to win your lane to be to rely on your teammates who may or may not know what they're doing, and who may or may not just make the situation worse? Why do you think that's well made gameplay with good, fair, fun counterplay? Why does "have teammates or you lose" sound like it's a good design philosophy for any game, much less a competitive team game like League of Legends?

Chang AhnMar 4, 20203 votes

I didn't downvote your comment, dumbass. I don't want the game to have 0 counterplay, that's what I'm advocating against with ranged top laners, actually.

LordGeovanniMar 4, 20204 votes

thats nice an all but how come that excuse never works when mages and adcs have heavy CC and mobility but its a team game and its not the job of the mage and the adc to peel for themselves. its the job of tanks and supports to peel for adcs and mages. It's a team game so why do adcs have access to shit ton of lifesteal instead of relying on their shield and healing supports. the only parts of the game that are allowed to be team game like are the parts that screw slow melee champions. its a team game why are adcs allowed to burst with crit and do it constantly with 100% crit chance. Its a team game why are mages allowed to burst on one spell and that spell have a 3 second cooldown. Burst isnt an adcs job and dps isnt a mages job. Inbetween Dps Burst and Tanking is what fighters are for who risk saftey having to walk up due to their low range.

billa2314Mar 4, 20206 votes

Fighters are to be front line, they do damage to protect the adc and the apc. They punish you for walking into them. Most tanks do not have cc, or reliable cc, that is for the mages, and some adc's. Leona has a stun, thresh a hook, knock back, but that doesn't stop highly mobile champs. Your complain here again says you don't understand how a team fight works. I bet your the adc that yells into the team "don't focus tanks" or the fighter that doesn't front line and tries to chase the adc instead of protecting yours because "don't focus tanks". The jg is usually the one to try to get to back line, or expose the adc/apc, but if they can't if you ever watch good, pro, matches they do kill the tanks a lot first, because they take who they can get to. They let those with mobility, usually Assassins get to back line on adc/apc of course that is the Assassin, or highly mobile champs job.

Problem is you want to be the tanky Garen/Darius/Morde, I don't care pick your top laner here, but you don't want any downside and no one to be able to counter you. Why shouldn't you ever be able to be cc'd ?? Sometimes it is the job of the Mage and ADC to peel for themselves if they have to. YOU have to know what your teams strength and weaknesses are. If you have a Garen top, with a twitch jg, and a sena support, and an ahri mid, and a Jhin adc. If your JHIN, SENA, AHRI, TWITCH you have little peel with a Garen as he has a silence and damage as his peel. So yeah you will be peeling for yourself. SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO.

Also you are comparing Solo Que, or Normals to what the game design for play actually is. This IS a team game where when 5 people work as intended, the mechanics are totally different. Hard to calls something not fair or broke, when game is not being played as intended.

Chang AhnMar 4, 20203 votes

I mean, I'm the ADC who plays Vayne and shouts "don't focus tanks" because by the time we're teamfighting, I three-shot them, and their damage dealers are way more important for our frontline to be focused on.

The Bad TouchMar 4, 20206 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chang Ahn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=AEHeZrgJ,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2020-03-04T21:54:13.601+0000)

I mean, I'm the ADC who plays Vayne and shouts "don't focus tanks" because by the time we're teamfighting, I three-shot them, and their damage dealers are way more important for our frontline to be focused on.

It is literally impossible to 3 shot a tank as vayne unless they are like 5 levels behind and forgot to buy items.

Chang AhnMar 5, 20201 votes

Maybe an overstatement, but you can't deny that Vayne does melt tanks (which is why she's even played top lane in the first place).

Metal JannaMar 5, 20204 votes

Statchecks eh? You mean like every melee champion having something built into their kit to make it so they can't be peeled should they ever get ino melee range?

Chang AhnMar 5, 20202 votes

That's funny that you think that's how that works, but no. When I say "statchecks" I mean champs like Mundo, who runs you down for free with zero counterplay if you don't have the stats to fight him.