Juggernauts are the most frustrating champs to play against imo

Alluring Touch·Aug 28, 2019·5 votes·3,621 views

Honestly yes sometimes assassins are big annoying. Sure fighters and adcs are sometimes annoying. But honestly, for the most part they all fall under the gauge of "these champs do lots of damage but they are squishy!" Now it's my personal OPINION, not fact, that champions that are building primarily tank items (i.e items that don't offer significant damage) should not be bursting, at all, ever. unless maybe it's like they are lv 18 and fighting a lv 11 champ.

Volibear at level 10, did 1234 damage in 0/94 seconds and his exact build was . I was playing eve yes im fully aware she is squishy. But a champion with 0 mr items is out bursting me? Doubling my damage? Not even that. Like frankly i dont care about eve not winning the 1v1 like it's the fact that volibear bursted me down, with literally not a single damage item. He also did most damage on his team. So it's really really ridiculous because like why let a champion sit there and do that much damage while also building purely tank. End game the only actual damage items he had was f.m and deadmans "im only putting deadmans in as offensive because the ONE person is gonna say it's a damage item because it does like 60 magic damage.

This is just one experience but im pretty sure darius falls under this category as well and not only does he do fuck tons of damage but hes also mobile as shit. It really bothers me that top lane gets so much leniency on what gets to stay ridiculous to play against

46 Comments

PyrosanAug 28, 20198 votes

Darius literally has to take ghost or he's unable to team fight without flash, period lol

To say Darius is a mobile champion is probably the worst statement I've heard in years

Alluring TouchAug 28, 20191 votes

Okay then what about volibear? Anything to chime in on that or just white knighting that darius is good with ghost

PyrosanAug 28, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Alluring Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9xgvfha6,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-08-28T08:42:52.117+0000)

Okay then what about volibear? Anything to chime in on that or just white knighting that darius is good with ghost

Volibear's damage is pretty easily predicted since he has to run at you with his Q for him to get his combo off, you can literally just walk in the other direction of Volibear to negate him killing you, if you step up too far you're dead and that's the general theme with most champions - except you're probably playing the wrong champions into volibear because he's like C tier at best lol

Alluring TouchAug 28, 20191 votes

Volibear's damage is pretty easily predicted since he has to run at you with his Q for him to get his combo off,

Literally this means nothing in terms of why he does that much damage. It's basically saying "oh you know its coming" Just walk in the other direction where. This isnt a sion ult he can literally run in any direction you go in.

if you step up too far you're dead and that's the general theme with most champions

A champion with no damage tiems has no business one shotting or doing over 1k damage at lv 10 in under a second. Like literally none of your argument makes sense. He's had a consistent 50% or over in the last 5 patches with a decent pick rate

PyrosanAug 28, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Alluring Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9xgvfha6,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-28T08:50:39.798+0000)

Literally this means nothing in terms of why he does that much damage. It's basically saying "oh you know its coming" Just walk in the other direction where. This isnt a sion ult he can literally run in any direction you go in.

A champion with no damage tiems has no business one shotting or doing over 1k damage at lv 10 in under a second. Like literally none of your argument makes sense. He's had a consistent 50% or over in the last 5 patches with a decent pick rate

He scales from HP not damage items lol I'm just telling you how the game is it's not really my problem if you dislike my "argument"

Volibear's repeated attacks grant him additional Attack Speed. Once Volibear has repeatedly attacked three times, he can perform a vicious bite on his target which deals increased damage based on the target's missing Health.

Passive: Volibear gains 9/13/17/21/25% Attack Speed with each attack. Stacks up to 3 times. Active: When Volibear has 3 stacks of Frenzy, he can bite an enemy to deal 60/110/160/210/260 (+15% of bonus Health [15% of bonus Health]) physical damage, increased by 1% for each 1% Health the target is missing. If Volibear bites a minion or monster, Frenzy's cooldown is reduced by 50%.

[slayer-jinx-wink]

The whole point of juggernaut's are to be immobile death machines, Volibear's damage comes from his W which requires for him to

Close the gap
Auto attack you three times
Have enough HP for it to scale enough to do significant damage
Have been able to damage you enough before using it so it does more damage as it's based off missing HP

More conditions have to be favoured for Volibear for Volibear to kill you.

Moody PAug 28, 20193 votes

hes literally pro viable and you think hes not good rofl

PyrosanAug 28, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9xgvfha6,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-28T09:11:01.828+0000)

hes literally pro viable and you think hes not good rofl

Volibear	2.2%	1	50.0%	2	0	2.2%	0.0%	4.00

He was picked twice in 2 out of what, 550 games? So was fiddlesticks, so he must be pro viable too.

BlackKnightJackAug 28, 20192 votes

Supposedly every champion has been picked or banned at least once in pro play this year meaning that technically all of them are pro viable.

ImTheJuggernautyAug 28, 20191 votes

Well put.

ImTheJuggernautyAug 28, 20191 votes

I have another argument for you. You say that champs shouldn't be tanky and deal lots of damage (the entire concept of juggernauts). Ok.

But then, lets look at other scenarios and combinations.

Should a champ be mobile and deal damage? Should they not have to buy mobilty items then in order to be mobile if they do damage?

Should a champ be ranged and deal lots of damage? They already have lots of safety from range, why should they also deal lots of damage?

Should a champ have stealth and deal tons of damage (basically very hard to counter them since you can't SEE them until it's too late much of the time, aka, eve, shaco, twitch, etc)?

Now let's go further. Should a champ have tanky or defensive abilities, be highly mobile, have plenty of cc, have tons of burst, AND high dps, along with mixed damage? Does that sound familiar like, I dunno, jax or irelia or akali?

Sure akali's not tanky, but don't tell me even for a moment that she doesn't have plenty of defensive escape or prolonging tools. She can be at 5% hp, jump from a shroud and 100-0 the adc that's within 500-700 units of her shroud. She can also dash away. She even has a micro stun.

You can go on and on, but the fact is that, immobile champs that are able to build tanky while still dealing good damage is neither outrages nor unfair. I mean, what other purposes would those champs even serve? what reward would those champs have for being immobile? That they should do subpar CC and hit like a limp noodle while acting as less-than-great meatshields compared to say, ornn, tahm kench, shen, etc.?

ImTheJuggernautyAug 28, 20191 votes

Lol true, plus volibear needs to build up to even use his W bite.

ImTheJuggernautyAug 28, 20191 votes

Volibear has a speed boost yes, but less damage and less POTENTIAL sustain than darius, so it balances out in that regard. Volibear is an incredibly obsolete champ right now, if anything, he's not unBEARable because he's too strong, but rather, because he can barely function against all the modern reworks and new champs.

MortismoAug 28, 20191 votes

Why are you so afraid of posting on your main account? We all know you're silver either way

Alluring TouchAug 29, 20191 votes

Baby, my main diamond account was Succubùs GF before it got banned. I also have the accounts Serpentine Queen and Lunar ArcS. Not afraid of shit honey. This game is linked to this account. Duh

ImTheJuggernautyAug 28, 20191 votes

Ikr, the ignorance is grating my brain like cheese. People pretend he is mobile because he takes ghost and buys some MS items like deadmans/cleaver/triforce/righteous glory. NO. It's because he lacks ANY mobilty that he NEEDS those items or he essentially doesn't exist as anything but a super minion for the sole purpose of providing the enemy adc free lifesteal.

Even with those added speed boosts, in the absence of range and any innate dashes, he is so linear that he is super easy to kite out and CC lock, then burst down in team fights. People just don't like to put in the effort sometimes.

BlackKnightJackAug 28, 20193 votes

This is just one experience but im pretty sure darius falls under this category as well and not only does he do fuck tons of damage but hes also mobile as shit.

You... Don't actually know a lot about Darius, do you? He is NOT mobile. Not even remotely. In fact that has consistently been his biggest weakness and it hurts him more than other juggernauts like Mordekaiser and Illaoi who just need to stand in the middle of the teamfight to generate value. Darius has to get into the middle AND still position properly with Q just to stay alive. The only time he starts doing "fuck tons of damage" in teamfights is if someone lets him get Noxian Might and he murders everyone who can't run away.

Alluring TouchAug 28, 20192 votes

You... Don't actually know a lot about Darius, do you? He is NOT mobile. Not even remotely. In fact that has consistently been his biggest weakness and it hurts him more than other juggernauts like Mordekaiser and Illaoi who just need to stand in the middle of the teamfight to generate value. Darius has to get into the middle AND still position properly with Q just to stay alive. The only time he starts doing "fuck tons of damage" in teamfights is if someone lets him get Noxian Might and he murders everyone who can't run away.

I think the general consensus is that darius actually outruns most champs when he takes ghost lol... theres a reason why hes actually meta.

He can build black cleaver into righteous with deadmans with ghost and run marathons.

BlackKnightJackAug 28, 20192 votes

He can build black cleaver

Yeah, you really know very little about Darius. Darius hardly builds Cleaver anymore. Likewise all of the things you mentioned are things Darius has to either build or take with him at the start of the game. Illaoi and Mordekaiser can take those same spells and build those same items as well, but generally don't because they don't need to. They function differently in teamfights because building movement speed isn't as important on them. It IS important for Darius not because he becomes super OP broken please nerf, but because without them he will often get focused, locked down, and die without doing anything meaningful in return.

ImTheJuggernautyAug 28, 20191 votes

They can also take ghost. They also tend to have more innate mobility. In fact, some even have better MS item options. Just look at Jhin. Have you ever seen the ones with two or three MS boosting crit items, which, on top of his passive MS boost on 4th AA and his excellent range and root and aoe slow, makes him incredibly difficult for someone like darius to approach even WITH flash and ghost (because remember, it's not darius's fault if jhin doesn't have flash up as well)

ImTheJuggernautyAug 28, 20191 votes

Also, when darius builds righteous glory AND deadmans, he sacrfices: better tank stats of items like randuins, OR damage. Because standard Darius build will include things like:

Cleaver/Triforce, Ninja/merc treads, randuins/thornmail, sterak's gauge, deadman's, righteous, deaths dance, and possibly titanic hydra. There are of course some other options like sometimes you can take adaptive helm. But otherwise, if you noticed, darius can basically go either highly tanky stats with less burst and mobility, or more mobility, but somewhat less tanky and less damage, or more damage with less tankiness. He can't have them all. If darius takes deadmans AND righteous glory, he's sacrificing a lot of other stats, which means: he'll do less upfront burst and he won't be able to take as much dps, especially against crits and %hp on-hit effects like BORK.

DeathBurstAug 28, 20193 votes

Volibear can't deal 1234 damage in 0.94 s with that build, that's mechanically impossible unless you were already pretty low life and most of his damage came from his execute.

And well, yeah, an execute will always burst if you're already low life. That has nothing to do with Juggernauts. Riven R does the same, Garen R, Lee Q, etc. Heck, your own Eve's R does the same. If your team does most of the damage and you just come in at the end with an execute, that doesn't mean your champ has burst.

And no, Darius doesn't do the same. Darius has no execute, and to get big damage on his R, he needs to get 5 stacks, which takes at least 2 AAs or 2 Qs, so ~2-3 seconds at the minimum if he hits everything and you don't have anything at all to CC him.

PyrosanAug 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Volibear can't deal 1234 damage in 0.94 s with that build, that's mechanically impossible unless you were already pretty low life and most of his damage came from his execute.

And well, yeah, an execute will always burst if you're already low life. That has nothing to do with Juggernauts. Riven R does the same, Garen R, Lee Q, etc. Heck, your own Eve's R does the same. If your team does most of the damage and you just come in at the end with an execute, that doesn't mean your champ has burst.

And no, Darius doesn't do the same. Darius has no execute, and to get big damage on his R, he needs to get 5 stacks, which takes at least 2 AAs or 2 Qs, so ~2-3 seconds at the minimum if he hits everything and you don't have anything at all to CC him.

The mechanic on his R is an execute regardless of how tricky it's to get to that execute threshold lol edit: nvm i am wrong and an idiot

DeathBurstAug 28, 20191 votes

No it's not. An execute is a skill dealing more damage to low life enemies. Darius R doesn't care about your current HPs at all, it always deals the same damage for a given number of stacks. If you are at 90% HP and 5 stacks, you take exactly the same damage that if you are at 10% HP and 5 stacks.

PyrosanAug 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

No it's not. An execute is a skill dealing more damage to low life enemies. Darius R doesn't care about your current HPs at all, it always deals the same damage for a given number of stacks. If you are at 90% HP and 5 stacks, you take exactly the same damage that if you are at 10% HP and 5 stacks.

yea you right nvm darius main btw i assumed it was bc it feared minions it counted as execute threshold lol

BlackKnightJackAug 28, 20191 votes

It has additional effects for executing (Resetting and fearing minions) but is technically not an execute in the sense of Riven's or Garen's ult.

ImTheJuggernautyAug 28, 20191 votes

In the sense that darius R resets if it kills someone, it is an execute because of the efficiency gained by doing so. In the sense of how much damage it does based on an opponent's hp, it is not an execute, so Deathburst is right in that sense.

It could be looked at either way.

Alluring TouchAug 28, 20191 votes

Volibear can't deal 1234 damage in 0.94 s with that build, that's mechanically impossible unless you were already pretty low life and most of his damage came from his execute.

Okay sure i guess around 85-90% is low. https://imgur.com/JghKFOP

PyrosanAug 28, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Alluring Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9xgvfha6,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2019-08-28T09:31:29.413+0000)

Okay sure i guess around 85-90% is low. https://imgur.com/JghKFOP

You literally survived for 3 seconds in that clip, you are Evelynn one of the most base-HP and defence lacking champions also lol...

Alluring TouchAug 28, 20191 votes

Well then be mad at death recap for saying 0.94. You're missing the point. An adc would die just the same, to someone with no offensive items and being able to build pure defensive

DeathBurstAug 28, 20192 votes

Well, yeah, I'm mad at the death recap, indeed. But 3 seconds is not burst, and Juggernauts are fine. Not to forget Volibear was a level ahead and who knows how much gold, but probably a lot judging by the 9-4 score and the fact he was farming your own jungle.

So, dying in 3 seconds to a fed opponents who's ahead in level, yeah, nothing to see here.

Starcraft243verAug 28, 20192 votes

I dont see a problem here, volibear was not building damages, but you were not building defense too.

Alluring TouchAug 29, 20191 votes

I dont see a problem here, volibear was not building defense,

Yes he fucking was lmao. Cinderhulk and armor with tabis and a giants belt are defensive items

Starcraft243verAug 29, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Alluring Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9xgvfha6,comment-id=000200010000000000010000,timestamp=2019-08-29T01:56:38.947+0000)

Yes he fucking was lmao. Cinderhulk and armor with tabis and a giants belt are defensive items

I missplaced a "not", sorry, I wanted to say "he wasnt building defense but neither did evelyn"

ImTheJuggernautyAug 28, 20191 votes

Except a good kaisai, or Lucian, or vayne would never be caught by a volibear unless he had flash (and even then they would kite him out and vayne could practically face tank him anyway once she has three items). And ADC's like jhin, jinx would never be caught unless out alone (which they shouldn't be anyway!), and even then jhin should be near impossible for voli without flash. Then take someone like tristana. She has jumps AND a self peel ult.

So yeah. if an adc is an absolute moron and stands face to face against a voli, they SHOULD die (but again, almost any late game adc would win anyway). But any competent adc will either kite the voli through their own abilities or keep distance with the help of their team.

And no, don't blame the deathcap, blame you for being sloppy and trying to pin it on juggernauts for being OP when you clearly outplayed yourself. And yes, 9/10 that a juggernaut outplays you, it's actually you outplaying yourself by making a mistake that they exploited.

WAZZZUP500Aug 28, 20193 votes

Why aren't you kiting him out? Why are trying to 1v1 a juggarnaut as an assassin? If you played it safe, maybe charmed him and used max distance spikes, you could've scared him off or kited him out.

Juggarnauts are supposed to do that much damage, but they actually have to catch you first.

Moody PAug 28, 20192 votes

HMMMM, an assassin player is frustrated about champions that are well regarded as a strong counter to assassins?

It makes perfect sense for a champion with high base damage to be scoring high on damage charts if hes fighting a lot. He is a damage threat by virtue of not dying quickly so his R can do heavy damage.

Alluring TouchAug 28, 20191 votes

No im frustrated that a champion who doesnt build damage does the same burst as an assassin. If you read my post i quite literally said i dont care that he is able to counter me, i truly find it good when assassins have counterplay. However it's an issue to me that someone builds straight tank and is one shotting. He can do it to adcs and mages too lol

ImTheJuggernautyAug 28, 20192 votes

He doesn't do the same burst though. He has a high hp pool and more resistances. So if you deal half his hp and he deals 100% of yours, he's doing so because you have half his hp and less resistances to mitigate his damage. In other words, if you got rid of resistances and gave each other the same HP Pool of about 2000, you might have actually killed him sooner.

thefatlazycatAug 28, 20192 votes

skirmishers are worse, juggernauts are built to have a lot of counterplay but strong stats, skirmishers are designed to have better damage, more mobility, less counterplay, the best defensive tools in the game to make up for being squishier, and more CC

Hayaishi2Aug 28, 20192 votes

Seems to me there is a serious lack of game knowledge by OP.

Asassins are not meant to contest juggernauts at anything. Juggernauts are meant to run over assassins kust as easily as assassins destroy squishy targets.

Juggernauts are easy to kite and are countered by CCing them and kiting them. Healing reduction too since most rely on healing to survive.

ImTheJuggernautyAug 28, 20192 votes

Exactly, juggernauts should STEAMROLL any assassin that sticks in range. Heck, the problem with this game is that an assassin and mobile fighters can be even or slightly ahead of a juggernaut and totally demolish them (i'm including jax, irelia). Which is completely not right. An assassin should have to be MILES ahead to demolish a juggernaut, and jax shouldn't be able to until late game (now it only takes him 2-ish items). Irelia should NEVER be able to duel any juggernaut unless miles ahead, because she already gets so much more than them and can escape at any time if she feels like it.

ImTheJuggernautyAug 28, 20192 votes

Darius is the least mobile champ in the game lmao, and no, you can't count items or sum spells because EVERYONE can take those
On the flip side of the coin, I've been literally one shot by Eve before as a full build darius with two MR items in about 2-3 seconds she dealt about 3-4 k damage on me while I was charmed and could do nothing about it.
Volibear literally cannot do that much damage in .94 seconds at any point in the game with any build. He literally needs three autos on you just do use his most bursty ability (W), and there is no way he gets three autos on you in one sec and bites you, much less in .94 seconds. I repeat, he CANNOT burst you for that much damage in one second, especially without prepping it. Maybe in like 3 seconds if he's ahead and has ult on as well. that's about it. you clearly had to be fighting him for at least that long

5050BSAug 28, 20191 votes

I posted something similar the other day. downvoted to hell.

We had GW and two stuns but there was ZERO ways to kill Voil in a fight because of his healing and Yummy support LITERALLY just the two of them would 2v5 the team and that was with a 22 kill Trist. Didnt matter she jumped away, he was ON HER like Drake on Milli

Alluring TouchAug 28, 20191 votes

Yeah i never understood boards pre conceived notions of "Juggernauts can do no wrong!" It drives me nuts

U R Good At GameAug 28, 20191 votes

As a top laner, agreed. I'll co-sign the fuck out of that. Careful though, the darius mains get butthurt when you call a champion with a 33% ban rate S tier champion annoying.

Exin0Aug 28, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Alluring Touch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9xgvfha6,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-08-28T08:05:50.959+0000)

Honestly yes sometimes assassins are big annoying. Sure fighters and adcs are sometimes annoying. But honestly, for the most part they all fall under the gauge of "these champs do lots of damage but they are squishy!" Now it's my personal OPINION, not fact, that champions that are building primarily tank items (i.e items that don't offer significant damage) should not be bursting, at all, ever. unless maybe it's like they are lv 18 and fighting a lv 11 champ.

Volibear at level 10, did 1234 damage in 0/94 seconds and his exact build was . I was playing eve yes im fully aware she is squishy. But a champion with 0 mr items is out bursting me? Doubling my damage? Not even that. Like frankly i dont care about eve not winning the 1v1 like it's the fact that volibear bursted me down, with literally not a single damage item. He also did most damage on his team. So it's really really ridiculous because like why let a champion sit there and do that much damage while also building purely tank. End game the only actual damage items he had was f.m and deadmans "im only putting deadmans in as offensive because the ONE person is gonna say it's a damage item because it does like 60 magic damage.

This is just one experience but im pretty sure darius falls under this category as well and not only does he do fuck tons of damage but hes also mobile as shit. It really bothers me that top lane gets so much leniency on what gets to stay ridiculous to play against

If you figure it out tell me pls. Its funny because if jugg in tank mode is bursting its fine but if tank dare to have any damage everyone is loosing mind.