we fought top lane while i was playing gnar. she kills me. i teleport back to lane after my death timer runs out... mind u this is still early game. i come back and try to get her under tower. and this chick has her ult up....again.... she already has a heal a severe slow and crazy dmg. she may be squishy but her ult is just too reliable for that to even matter.....
Yuri By Mail8 votesYes. I do.
Clayblob27 votesAbsolutely, zilean has a 42 secound ult
Taric has a 44 second ult
Ekko has a 4? Second ult.
Infact kayles ult shouldlast longer
MuffledGarbage6 votesDo you really think riot would nerf Kayle when in pro play she isn't even remotely broken?
EDIT:
To clarify, take ANY Bombardment mage like 
or 
and play a giant poke-comp in the competitive scene.
Now Kayle is super useless because she has to burn ult in order to GET to you...
Not to mention that you are forgetting that 
exists... grab helm and then grab 
After your third item being a damage item(depends on who you are playing of course) then you will be able to take care of 
while taking little-no damage relatively speaking.
Also you would have had to let her farm up to a point where she could beat you... has one of the worst earlygames in league...
Exploit that. She's the 
of AP marksman.
If you don't exploit 's weaknesses then she practically has none; same goes for every champion in league.
If you don't exploit a weakness and fight a champion when they are strong (relative to the exact match and champ. Like don't 1v1
if you aren't playing a skirmisher) you kinda deserve to lose that fight...
Durzaka2 votesLiterally all of what you said is counter building, and counter picking.
No counter play involved. Which is the sign of bad design.
BobaFlautist2 votesCounterplay is easy: force her to use it then kill her. Don't dive her when it's up if you can't survive an additional 3s,, and don't all-in her if she'll be able to kill you while it's running.
I mean she's not a complex champion to play against.
Durzaka2 votesForcing her to use it then kill her implies you are capable of killing her twice before she kills you. In which case youre already ahead and her ult isnt a problem.
And the cooldown on her ult is so god damn low that you can NEVER dive her with it being down. its going to be up every single fight after she gets a little bit of CDR, which she obviously builds.
Complexity has nothing to do with good or bad design. kayle is a terrible designed champion.
MuffledGarbage2 votesBuilding against a champ's main damage source is bad design?
ok then. Tell that to all mages, adcs, and assassins. This is league of DAMAGE NOW!!!!
Would you say that a Poke-Comp team that is built around
isn't good design when bans can exclude champions that can deal with the pressure of poking all day?
The only way to beat certain Poke-Comp teams is to use certain champions... does that make any of the champions involved badly designed?
EX: let's make ourselves have a Poke Comp team vs a Poke-Comp team.
The team that can successfully either kill a frontliner, kill a backliner, or get a good catch will win the game. Whichever team gets behind will simply stall the game out until everyone reaches lvl 18 with max build...
I ask you again, does that make all the champs involved poorly made?
Durzaka1 votesEverything can be counterbuilt against. Thats what items are for.
Everything SHOULD be able to be played around. So if you just play better than the opponent you can win. Having very little counter play is the reason some champions are reworked, or nerfed.
Poke-Comps do have counter play. The counter is to avoid the poke, and then force an engage where their team fight is weaker. its a very clear and exploitable weakness, which can in turn be countered itself by playing safer, and saving disengages for when the enemy tries to engage.
MuffledGarbage1 votesDid you read at all past the first 3 lines?
Any of the questions I posed?
evidently not.
It is near IMPOSSIBLE to end a game when a Poke-Comp team is able to waveclear near a tower you want to contest and you have NO CHAMPIONS THAT CAN DEAL WITH THE POKE(by engaging) BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN BANNED.
Want to grab that mid tower?
watch as all your minion waves are cleared, forcing your tank to take a lot more damage than needed in order to take that tower, which allows the other team to get free hits off of your team, either ending in a kill OR ending.
Want to grab an objective?
Try to and the entire enemy Poke-Comp will be able to contest it AND force your team to take LOTS of damage before a teamfight (turning any teamfights into thier favor) OR they can force your team off of an objective due to a possible lack of tankiness(for example if you have a splitpusher on the other side of the map. If they TP in it'll be close to too late.)
Not to mention. DOWNVOTING my post simply because you don't agree with it?
That's a low blow m8.
Only goes to show the extent of your argument. It's SHORT and the points it makes aren't strong enough to hold it together leaving with you having to downvote my post and hope others downvote JUST because they see the number zero.
Automated Riven1 votesSorry man. Very rarely is the way to win a game group 5 mid and push. A ziggs poke comp vs a 1-3-1 comp with kass and fiora/Jax will get rekt because ziggs can't clear all 3 waves. And the splitpushers will simply outscale the counterparts forcing 2 people to each side lane and nobody defending mid. Or else your towers simply fall. Even wave clear /poke comp have their weaknesses. You just have to understand macro instead of micro.
MuffledGarbage1 votesThe 1-3-1 splitpush comp will lose the fight mid thanks to the Poke-Comp allowing for Ziggs to have peel from his support of choice which will stop any approaches from Kassadin.
Jax/fiora and Kass can't outpush 5 people all at one lane, It's impossible.
Besides, anytime that pro-play has seen the likes of Jax/Fiora they've done pretty bad.
Kassadin is going to be your answer for a counter to Ziggs, I assume which he's dealt with easily thanks to the support peel.
A 3v5 is hard to win fight, let alone holding a tower, and when you include the fact that Ziggs has the tower execute on his W. You'll start to see that 5 people all pushing mid will be able to end the game WAY before Jax/Fiora and Kass all get to take the inner towers on top and botlane.
Plus without all 5 people at mid helping to defend the towers against the Poke-Comp, the towers in mid will be taken VERY quickly.
That is Macro play m8. As long as are all even by 10 minute mark, the game is won for the Ziggs Poke-Comp simply BECAUSE they can take whatever they want. The 1-3-1 comp HAS to play reactively to EVERYTHING that the Poke-Comp does thanks to the speed that each side takes towers.
Ziggs PokeComp > 1-3-1 splitpush Comp.
Plus you also forgot that BANS can stop your 1-3-1 splitpush comp from ever coming to fruition.
Automated Riven1 votesthere arent enough bans to ban out all the splitpushers as well as all the engage champions.
MuffledGarbage1 votesdid you just skip to the end of my entire post?
I legit wrote one line on how bans can stop a splitpush comp...
and Seventeen lines on how the 1-3-1 splitpush comp couldn't defend mid towers in time if the pokecomp grouped up.
AirKingNeo2 votesEverything can be counterbuilt against. Thats what items are for.
Fiora
AirKingNeo1 votesKayle is claimed to be a generalist, but that wouldn't be true. Generalists have no true weakness, and only downside is "things they lack". Kayle, lacks things and also has her own weaknesses. She falls off against tanks because her passive is completely garbage. She's weak to magic poke early and is a basic attacker.
MuffledGarbage1 voteslmao everything I said includes this.
Check the "Bombardment mages" section.
And towards the end of my post I even stated that there are lots of ways to itemize to shut her down.
Subject 56 votes
"Did OP forget that I existed? Am I chopped Liver?"
"I think he's just forgetting me because I'm black. What a fucking racist."
"I wasn't going to say anything, but. Yeah. Uh. Gems."
"Hey guys what're you talking ab-"
One Ashe On5 votesShe is squishy and it require her ult to make her reliable and even viable, remove her ult and Kayle stop exist. Also remember it's invulnerability, she isn't immune to crowd controls... while she ult, CC her and back off until it's down and then re engage. Kayle is weak to disengage and re engage as her ult last 3 second on level 3.
Bouncemaster Zac5 votesFun fact: it used to have a mana cost but decided that wasn't broken enough and made it free.
NavyDivea3 votesYou do realize that Kayle is utter shit without that ult in lane right? Nearly ANYONE can all in her and kill her in seconds when she doesn't have ult. Add to the fact cc still works and its barely any different that a Tryn ult, who CD is pretty much the same. It's SUPPOSED to be up every fight.
AirKingNeo3 votessevere slow
That's laughable, because Kayle's slow is not severe at all. Worse, you're playing Gnar, someone with an equally, or better, slow.
Also, you're playing Gnar. Kayle counters Gnar. Also Gnar shouldn't be viable. Also that means she has 30-40% CDR, which means she's either really fed, or this is mid game.
Infernape2 votesThat's laughable, because Kayle's slow is not severe at all. Worse, you're playing Gnar, someone with an equally, or better, slow.
-gets Frozen Mallet-
Perma-slow*
AirKingNeo1 votesThat's a lot of damage to sacrifice and she would have to buy that third item.
PrinceOfStorms1 votesWhy would Kayle ever buy Mallet before 
Inting Pillow2 votesI think they should just remove the cooldown at this point
Clayblob21 votesYes please😂
Cowseed2 votesThe slow litterally cost a fuck ton to use. Same with her heal. These suck alot and I think the reason is her ult.
SSG Elmo1 votesgive her a mana cost on her ultimate increase the cooldown early game but scales into late game and only lasts 2 seconds not 3
My Waifu Vanilla2 votesGiving a mana cost on her ult will accomplish nothing since half the time Kayle doesn't drop below half mana anyway unless she is awful and needs to use W constantly because she trades poorly. E practically refunds itself every cast in lane due to Doran's Ring and Q costs very little for how very little you use it.
AirKingNeo1 votesE practically refunds itself every cast in lane due to Doran's Ring and Q costs very little for how very little you use it.
36 mana is not 45. Nor is 42 mana equal to 45. Also Kayle uses her Q and W quite often when trading, or her Q when she's CSing.
Kayle is actually a champion whose weakness is her mana and lack of mana sustain.
MuffledGarbage2 votesuhh your forgetting mana regen...
with the extra mana regen from Doran's ring.
A full wave of minions with an E cost, pays for itself thanks to the passive of Doran's ring
AirKingNeo1 votesAt that point, HP costs are negated by Doran's Shield/Blade's healing.
MuffledGarbage2 votesKayle E still refunds itself with one minion wave... regardless of how much you downvote me.
Besides, that's a whole different topic on how Kayle's mana will only run out if she's trading too much.
Staying in lane as Kayle is relative to the number of trades you do, and the amount of poke you get hit by.
Getting hit takes on average 1-2 W's to fill health to a non-lethal amount. ( depends on laner, for this example i'm gonna use Lux because she's a common pick.)
get hit by a Lux E? well one W will fill that up.
Afterwards, if there's enough mana to use E and clear the minion wave, then Kayle in 20 or so seconds will have the mana back from her W in mana-regen(although that's without the extra minion waves that would have arrived by then, depending on the game time)
AirKingNeo1 votesKayle E still refunds itself with one minion wave... regardless of how much you downvote me.
Claiming 36/42 = 45 is completely false.
MuffledGarbage1 votesyou forgot the mana regen, YET AGAIN.
AirKingNeo1 votesBut that's not refunding? I'm losing mana I would have otherwise had if I did not cast my E.
MuffledGarbage1 votesyou gain back the mana FROM regen tho...
if you cast your E and kill the minions... the leftover mana difference is made up for via mana regen leaving you with your original amount of mana.
AirKingNeo1 votesThe mana regen is non conditional. SO I get it regardless of if I use E or not.
That makes it a nonfactor.
AirKingNeo2 votesHer ultimate lasts 2/2.5/3. There's no reason to nerf the duration.
Also if you give her ultimate a mana cost, you have to compensate with mana buffs.
LoLN0081 voteseh all the other simular ults have simular cd's and she rushes nashors, with both components having cdr
