Malzahar being played as a support was an in-game evolution which RIOT may have not thought. It gained popularity and (personally speaking) its really fun to play Malzahar support, but RIOT keeps on nerfing him patch after patch like they have a personal vendetta against him. Honestly, I fail to see how it makes them so uncomfortable if Malzahar is played as a support. Why they want him out of the support role so so bad?
Silly Neeko2 votesIt is not that they do not want it, it is that it is too oppressive against the enemy. You remember when Zyra had that same issue?
The current malzahar can still support just fine, but is just less oppressive and more fun for the enemy because they do not have 10 little swarmlings super speeding after them, if they can even run because of the suppression ultimate.
You tell me why it was fun to play malzahar support, and i will explain to you how being vs it at level 2 you can barely survive after he drops 2 voidlings and space aids you with exhaust so you can barely move and get out.
jaanleva1 votesIt was fun because the skill curve is just like that of learning guitar (easy to learn, difficult to master) . I have played against malz support many times as well. I agree that at level 2 malzahar's kill potential is very high in comparison, but it doesn't keep on rising in the same scale. As far as his ult goes, QSS does the job. So does Morgana's, Kayle's, and many other champ's kit.
Silly Neeko1 votesNo, but it does rise, and with even a half decent ADC you will win lane very easily, and yes..... There are some champions that if they are picked over the other 120 someodd champions, will have a little easier time. QSS does help remove the CC but by that time the Malzahar already has Rylais and Liandries etc. and will be reapplying the slow asap, not to mention he has stalled long enough for their ADC to go "oh hey hes almost killed them, let me auto to finish them off"
Morgana can only stop him if she shields before he ulties, or if the malzahar is silly enough to ulti during Morgana's ulti. I would say Nami is more of a counter to Malzahar support, or Zilean due to their ability to keep the ally alive, and knock off the ultimate asap while also potentially killing the voidlings.
Kayle i can see being a semi counter to Malzahar due to the immune to damage of her ulti, and the AOE of her Eed autos to kill voidlings.... But i rarely see Kayles played, even though when they are they almost always carry.
Those are very specific champions that I do not see picked very much, unless the malzahar is picked early on. It is way too easy to pick up and play and dominate the lane. THAT is why it specifically got a nerf.
jaanleva1 votesNo offense,
If Malz is ulting the adc, champs like Morgana, Karma, Kayle, Rakan, Thresh, Ahri, Poppy, Tahm Kench, Taric, Zilean, Lulu, Soraka, Sona, Nami, Nunu, Sion, Braum and Bard (most of these are supports) can easily with one click disrupt the Ult. Apologies if I have forgotten any. If so many champs can disrupt the ult at any time, then its hardly broken.
Coming to the voidling part, post patch 7.9 the voidlings are reduced in numbers, they cannot be cast (the 2 stack feature) in split seconds like a burst champ, they lose movement speed if they are away from Malzahar and they are one shot for the champs AA and big jungle monsters. All they have been doing pre 7.11 is peeling for the adc.
I strongly believe in the IQ of people who are in competitive gaming, and I have felt so far that the best thing about the League is that, "there is always room for improvisation". For those who are aware of Malzahar's kit can outrun and outplay them easily even if they are as skillful as bronze 4. Its no secret that Malz does not have any escape mechanism (except for flash), no auto attack, no healing but just the damage kit without burst.
Even if the win rates of the so called super buffed Malzahar (any patch) are to be taken, it has never crossed any eyebrow raising %
Silly Neeko1 votesI have not said anything about broken. I said oppressive.
Morgana can ONLY disrupt the suppression if she shields before he ulties, or if he ulties DURING morgana's ultimate. None of her skills stop a channel already in effect, its similar to if she shields after Nasus uses Wither. The person will still have the progressive slow applied.
Kayle does not disrupt Malzahar's ultimate.
Karma can not disrupt Malzahar's ultimate. Nunu can not disrupt Malzahar's ultimate.
The rest can yes, but you also have to kill the Malzahar shield, which lets them have a full .5-1 sec at minimum extra time AFTER hitting them to keep that suppression applied before it goes away and they can be CCed.
Tahm Kench, and Bard can target the ally and so can actually counter him that way.
Pre 7.11 it is late game that they are dropping off. During laning phase, you have to kill the mobile walking voidlings that had a speed boost when moving towards enemies afflicted by his Malific Visions, so it was after that went away that the voidlings lost their speed from walking away from Malzahar..... Or you would have at least 5-6 of them on you before you knew it and taking a good chunk of practically free damage from his Malific Visions and voidlings. This is easier said than done unless you have AOE and then you would have to either use mana that you may need later, or you would need to have the ADC help focus them and that could potentially leave to lost farm.
Did i mention that it also procs DFT and Thunderlords for extra damage?
Rank has nothing to do with how a person can deal with the Malzahar.
Your "outrun the malzahar kit" just means that if they target the ADC with the kit, your suggestion is to run. This includes away from farm, and to target the voidlings. This can be an extended period of time ranging between 1-5 seconds roughly, in which time they are needing to not focus on CS and deal with the problem at hand there. Most ADCs could not 1 shot voidlings because of the 2 hit system unless they used an ability or were Miss Fortune.
Therefor i rest my case about oppressive.
Yes it is a duo lane, but you do have to remember they have a duo lane too..... This means you would have to focus on which is a bigger threat? The enemy ADC charging at you while you take free Malzahar damage? Or is it going to be the Voidlings while the enemy ADC is autoing you and chunking your health that way? As your adc/support tries to to be on the same wave length and target the same person/deal with the other threat.
5050BS1 votesYa and now Zyra is also dead. They have killed 4 champs in two updates
Silly Neeko1 votesAll aboard the "over dramatic express" train!
Zyra is fine. You seem like the kind of person that is upset because they do not have an easy lane just because the champion is way too oppressive.
Please feel free to bring up annie to me, and i will explain to you that i can often beat her easily and she is not played very much at all.
Chønklord1 votesI mean, if you compare s7 zyra/malz to say, s5 versions of zyra/malz, the new ones would literally get dumpstered so hard; they've been nerfed/gutted/reworked that oppressively by Riot.
When you've mained a champion for so long, and have grown accustomed to their kit and how they're played and their strengths vs certain champs and weaknesses vs others, you can't help but get frustrated and angry when Riot decides "hey let's just completely fuck with these champions", turning them inside out, gutting most of their power, and ruining their original playstyle for their respective community of players.
Silly Neeko1 votesShe was changed. This does not mean nerfed. Just means people have to relearn her. Same as Malzahar. Its not a "lets completely gut these people" kind of thing because again, you are getting on the "over dramatic express".... It is they changed her up, and now she has new strengths and weaknesses..... Without just auto targetting enemy champions to chunk them with absolutely no actual work done from the Zyra player in general.
Personally, if they changed Nami who is by far one of my favorite champions, I would go with it for at LEAST a week before trying to come up with any of this bs about "oh this champ has been gutted. Oh this champion is not viable anymore. Oh woe is me." on literally THE FIRST DAY OF HER REWORK RELEASE.
Chønklord2 votesWhy would it take a whole week for experienced zyra players to determine if the champion is less powerful / hard nerfed or not? It would be pretty obvious to me if one of my main champions was hard nerfed, even on the first day of patching. It's called "gut instincts".
Unless you're telling me you have such little chemistry with and understanding of any given champion, that you simply must play and re-play them over and over for a whole week to base your opinion on them?
Silly Neeko1 votesI do not always play the same champion, or the same role. I may not even get the changed champion very often.
After a rework, how i used to play them could be wrong. Their strengths could be changed to something else that i have not utilized..... I could be doing the wrong build.... I could be going a bit too ham, or not ham enough.... Etc.
Ideas are also gotten from seeing someone else playing the champion effectively, this can take a bit to actually get a grasp of how and why they played them/built them that way in particular. Hell, even those that test on the PBE can get their butts handed to them by someone else who figured out how to play the reworked champion better and faster.
All of this can take atleast a week to actually get the feel of..... That and the first 24 hours is full of the bs of "oh this champion is gutted! Woe is me!" who have just not figured out their new strengths and weaknesses yet.
Chønklord1 votesWelp, not everyone plays like you do.
Personally, I have around 2k games this season alone.
I play every day, and I mainly play a handful of the same champions.
I know how they interact with rune pages, I can feel the difference between 7% AS in runes or 15% in runes, for example, on each and every one of them.
I understand every possible build both meta and off-meta for them as well.
That means I have a shit ton of experience with how those champions "feel" and their matchups, both good/bad.
I would know very quickly and very easily if a champion were hard nerfed after the first handful of games on patch day.
Silly Neeko1 votesAnd im willing to lay bets that you have met someone who has less experience with those champions and who have beat your pants off with them.
You are so used to "this is how it is now" that you do not even think of trying out the various new things that may open up for the champions. You just cant play the champion after they are reworked and so you go around telling everyone it is gutted.
Without looking up the enemy player i can roughly tell you what they have in their runes and masteries, and know how to exploit each one if i am able. I can tell you what most players of a certain champion build based on what i have seen, and tell you how they are played based on what I have seen.
I can tell you normally what the enemy grabs first for skills, and why. I am able to tell you the most likely way that the champion will put their skills in each role depending on build and match up.
I watch, listen, learn. I play almost every champion at least once or twice and keep up with what their skills do and how enemies play against them.
I have over 6000 games played in the game over 4ish years almost all of which are normals because i could care less about spaming ranked. I would have more but I personally do not always play the game every day but i do play most every day.
Now are you done trying to start a pissing contest and open your mind to some kind of logic? You dont learn a new language, no matter how similar it is to one you already know, within a day. You can get a vague grasp of it but you DO NOT know it after 24 hours. It will often times take a week with immersion and studying to even come close to being able to say you actually speak the language well.
Chønklord1 votesI can do the same, bud. Been playing since s4, so relax.
My point I was making is that someone with enough time and knowledge of the game and certain champions played, can more easily detect when/if a champ is "gutted", even on first-day patching. Sure, you may realize more things along the way over the course of the week/season with said champ, but overall there's that first instinctual "gut feeling" you only get from years and thousands of games played on any given champ.
Just because Riot changes something, does not always mean it is for the better every time they do. They infact, have a horrible track record of poor gameplay balancing and even worse champion balancing.
This season has been pretty bad thus far in terms of champion balance and gameplay balance, since I've been playing.
New and different isn't always better; it may be exciting, but there are huge inherent risks with always changing things up year after year, while the game/champions continue to be poorly balanced or left behind the meta.
Silly Neeko1 votesIt does not matter how long you have played a champion. If it changes try it out for a week. This is, if nothing else, at least a good attempt at trying to see how it works. Saying it is gutted on day 1 will only get in the way of seeing what the actual changes can do.
You are right, it is not always better. But most of the time it is based on opinion as to if something was made better or worse. Some people find the champions better, some find them worse. It happens. You cant please everyone. However, if people barely even try the reworks how is there supposed to be any kind of idea on how to make it work?
Give it a week before saying that they are gutted. The more experience you have with the old, the less room you have for the new. Meaning the more time it will take for you to get used to something new.
Pwnage691 votesWell, significantly overdue as your post is 9 months old at the time of this post, but can view it as giving the changes (and nerfs to midlane malz that occured since mid season 7 through current season 8.3 patch) more "time" than your "give it a week" statement.
Malzahar completely fell of the support (and jungle) playrates on prolol and champion.gg and op.gg. Players can still do it, just like you could choose to play any champion anyway you want (AP Kog mid post nerf, etc), but when the lane has completely disappeared from the tracked lane stats for months, it indicates its been nerfed to the point of castration and obviously no longer meta (for support, not for mid lane).
At the time of this post: malz is shown only tracked Middle Lane on champion.gg and op.gg with an 86.23% rate, and no support or jungle tab, which at some past points he (briefly) did have when they were able to be done and considered viable / acceptable / meta. As for that remaining 13.77%, champion.gg tosses out games that end relatively early or have too few items on the champ to categorize to a lane with a worthwhile game, so those games are tossed/ignored, regardless if they were "remaked", surrendered at 15/20 or even a hyper win within those time frames.
As for the other guys Zyra comment, yeah she's still support without the mid lane sustain dmg she had back in s3, but now ( 9 months later) that her plants don't auto target champs on spawn (unless the spell that grows the plants hits a champ), + a follow up nerf increasing mana costs, before considering other changes to other champs and items, the winrate plummeted for her. And despite that being 9 months, I know, because I went Zyra first 1/2 of season 7 when i Saw she was consistently in the top 3 champ winrates end of s6 and stuck with her...until these nerfs which resulted in me gradually dropping her in favor of other champs that came up to god tier winrates at the time (Fiddle was one who became a top winrate when Rakan and Xayah were released and is still flagged even now as a high winrate mid and support).
As evident on the stats before and after on the playrate/winrate sites for both Zyra and Malz, it was obvious the playrates were going to drop and those roles were getting neutered. Same for zyra for the nerf "completely reworking the plant mechanic" in a huge manner no longer prioritizing champs on spawn. Didn't need "a week" to see either set playout. Thats why data on the playsites from the...what....33 million player poolsize? already shows data after 2 days of each patch.
9 months ago was only when the first couple nerfs to Malz's voidlings were made. But within those few months, the voidlings got literal mini-reworks 3x in addition to riot "buffing his mid lane ap damage" in the patch notes as compensation for nerfing the voidlings.
They went from spawning rapidly in groups with w growing into a clusterfuck of voidlings, into becoming the charged skill giving extras when you cast other spells, followed by the 3rd nerf slowing their movement speed upon spawn, then finally the 4th major voidling nerf after that where all voidlings die with 1 hit. And thats before you add the follow up nerfs to his ult cd and dmg at that time, which got nerfed again recently (though currently being s8 is a different world).
Cocho1 votesAlot of the malzahar players, especially the ones that played him before the rework, liked him and his kit better focused around mid.
Idc either way they both give me space aids
5050BS1 votesBut they killed Mid lane Malz too. You dont see them nerfing Annie to the ground do you? Yet she can be played in all roles but ADC
Cocho1 votesI dont think he was nerfed, they just adjusted his kit to being a midlaner.
Alot of malzahar players here like these changes. https://www.reddit.com/r/MalzaharMains/
Chønklord1 votesWhich would you rather have:
A. Malzahar that isn't viable either as a support OR as a mid laner;
B. Malzahar that is viable as a mid laner, and can still be played in support but without 'tons of damage' from voidlings
Yea. Everyone went with the correct choice.