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Lets talk about tanks!

L I Y A N··2 votes·1,299 views

Whats up guys. So Tanks have been a really big topic in league of legends and people really do not seem to like them. Wether to play against them or play them theyself. I am a bruiser main, because i just like to be rewarded with big damage and good sustain by playing good. I believe that top lane is pretty much the most underrated role in this whole game. So as you could think, i play against alot of tanks. And after playing against tanks for a really long time i might be able to explain how they work, since riot obviously has no clue about them. Tanks werent really that big back in season 3 or 4. (I have been playing since season 2)

Back in the day tanks were important but noone ever stoneplated flashed ulted some 2k hp off tank jungler and got the kill as chogath. Life was simple back then and all tnaks had to do was literally use all the cc they have on the most important target so their carrys can secure the kill. It was a league that worked really well because everyone had their own role and this made a team a team. But in the years we all have experience something weird about tanks and the patches that riot brought out.

As already mentioned i am a top laner and tanks actually are able to literally bully somebody out of lane for just engaging. Dont get me wrong, tanks have their weak points and you can abuse them really bad. But looking at the contect. The AD dmg board should be ADCs, Mages and Assassins > Bruiser > Tank.

Thats how it always has been and it should make sense on the paper aswell. The dps or oneshot gods, the sustain damage and off tanks, and the tank cc machine that will not let you live until their carry free kills you. I know there are some champion exceptions and what not, but this is just a general interpretation of how league should work. Tanks almost all of the time go into the resolve tree, it offers almost no 1v1 dmg but mostly objective oriented runes and alot of sustain and tenacity for you and your allies. Now alot of bruisers go to domination or even the cocky players use precision, most bruisers i know would either take Conquerer or Electrocute. And it all makes sense right? They build dmg and hp items so they can do a bit better in the dps area.

So shouldnt they beat a tank? Shouldnt that be the weakness of a tank? Well currently it is not because of maybe 2 problems, either the bruisers are too weak (wich i dont believe) or those tanks are just way too tanky and too free to use. Tanks can afford alot of punishment because they are tanks. Poppy for example should not be able to deal 100 dmg by simply walking up to a immobile bruiser, Q him and deal 80 dmg from her doulbe Q proc and then safely rong range auto attack. Maybe i am just bitching but i think that tanks have been a big problem in league, and i know how to beat them, but beating them is not fun at all. I do not like sitting in safe range taking minions that the enemy doesnt cover for 10 minutes until i hit lvl 6 and can maybe kill them because they either get cocky and tank minions or just play dumb. I dont know, you guys got any ideas?

22 Comments

Critmaster Garen2 votes

the problem isnt that tanks are too tanky, but that riot threw a bunch of % max health damage into their kits, so theyre still able to 1v1 and kill each other.

tanks just used to have a decent amount of flat base damage on their abilities.

but they changed that, because people were bored watching noodle fights on top lane in pro play. is it healthy? no. they still did it.

the problem is, that tanks started to unsurprisingly be able to 1v1 and win against fighters, which completely dumpstered them 2 or 3 seasons back and they were entirely invalidated for like a whole year.

because why would you play a tanky carry, if you can play a tanky carry with aoe cc and team utility, who will never be irrelevant?

the core of the problem is really that riot doesnt want to really make tanks. they just want them to be fighters with team utility essentially. the only tanks who are allowed to be tanks happen to be supports. Leona Taric etc.

Iota Theta2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9ENEVNGG,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-14T17:50:31.907+0000)

the problem isnt that tanks are too tanky, but that riot threw a bunch of % max health damage into their kits, so theyre still able to 1v1 and kill each other.

tanks just used to have a decent amount of flat base damage on their abilities.

but they changed that, because people were bored watching noodle fights on top lane in pro play. is it healthy? no. they still did it.

the problem is, that tanks started to unsurprisingly be able to 1v1 and win against fighters, which completely dumpstered them 2 or 3 seasons back and they were entirely invalidated for like a whole year.

because why would you play a tanky carry, if you can play a tanky carry with aoe cc and team utility, who will never be irrelevant?

the core of the problem is really that riot doesnt want to really make tanks. they just want them to be fighters with team utility essentially. the only tanks who are allowed to be tanks happen to be supports. Leona Taric etc.

Just some general-ish questions, cause I agree a number of tanks ended up with more damage than they should.

Where is the line drawn on base damages? Beyond some of the %max health damage culprits, a number of tank damage complaints I saw in the past were more on how high their base damages were, allowing them to really hurt targets that didn’t/couldn’t build resists.

Do you think there is a balance point on base damages where the tank doesn’t feel like they can’t clear, either in lane or in jungle, but also not blow up squishier champs with those bases and have a tougher time in 1v1 duels with fighters and other dps? Is %current health damage, obviously tuned to a reasonable level, a viable option, where Over longer instances, the fighter would quickly begin to deal more over damage, and would also allow tanks to at least interact with each other in some way? Or some other option?

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9ENEVNGG,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-11-14T18:48:51.419+0000)

Just some general-ish questions, cause I agree a number of tanks ended up with more damage than they should.

Where is the line drawn on base damages? Beyond some of the %max health damage culprits, a number of tank damage complaints I saw in the past were more on how high their base damages were, allowing them to really hurt targets that didn’t/couldn’t build resists.

Do you think there is a balance point on base damages where the tank doesn’t feel like they can’t clear, either in lane or in jungle, but also not blow up squishier champs with those bases and have a tougher time in 1v1 duels with fighters and other dps? Is %current health damage, obviously tuned to a reasonable level, a viable option, where Over longer instances, the fighter would quickly begin to deal more over damage, and would also allow tanks to at least interact with each other in some way? Or some other option?

the solution to the base damage being excessively high or not being able to cs or waveclear is rather simple.

put bonus damage against minions and monsters on those abilities.

in previous seasons, we had specific jungle masteries that helped tanks deal more damage to minions and monsters, and reflect damage against them. thats why they were able to clear the jungle at a decent rate.

it was actually why a lot more champions were capable of jungling. they kindof pushed this onto the jungle items, but that doesnt help laning tanks, and they still generally designed gold and xp gains in favour of aggressive junglers.

a champion like a tank who cant fight other champions early on is fucked for example, because he cant contest scuttles.

Ralanr1 votes

Eh, that feels like too much of a bandaid option honestly, and would make tanks much better at farming under tower. If a tank is willingly farming under tower, then the lane becomes more of a farmfest.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Eh, that feels like too much of a bandaid option honestly, and would make tanks much better at farming under tower. If a tank is willingly farming under tower, then the lane becomes more of a farmfest.

or he could use his waveclear and push in the lane to set up a roam play.

i dont think it matters that it feels like a bandaid if it works better than what theyre currently doing.

Iota Theta1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9ENEVNGG,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-14T19:03:31.639+0000)

the solution to the base damage being excessively high or not being able to cs or waveclear is rather simple.

put bonus damage against minions and monsters on those abilities.

in previous seasons, we had specific jungle masteries that helped tanks deal more damage to minions and monsters, and reflect damage against them. thats why they were able to clear the jungle at a decent rate.

it was actually why a lot more champions were capable of jungling. they kindof pushed this onto the jungle items, but that doesnt help laning tanks, and they still generally designed gold and xp gains in favour of aggressive junglers.

I appreciate the response. Stuff prior to Season 5 I’m not as aware of, since that was when I started, and even stuff that season was fuzzy as I tried to get a grasp on things. Don’t quite remember those masteries, so that’s interesting.

The bonus to minions and monsters could be an interesting thing on a tank-by-tank basis, as there are some, like Rammus, who don’t really have need of it and have their very focused niche to balance them, like how his taunt and W work.

Ornn was actually a big reason I accept %current as a much better option to %max health, although some instances of %max are balanced decently (like Maokai E being outrun). But I had felt %current was a good option, at least on him, seeing as he couldn’t hurt nearly as much but still could trade early on and push wave. Doesn’t mean it’d work for everyone though.

a champion like a tank who cant fight other champions early on is fucked for example, because he cant contest scuttles.

One reason to enjoy Nunu, Q that Scuttle.

TheSingularity1 votes

The balance is as much as absolutely necessary. They need enough damage to clear jungle and not be ignored. Nothing more.

Ralanr2 votes

Why are you letting Poppy proc both parts of her Q just by walking up to you?

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Why are you letting Poppy proc both parts of her Q just by walking up to you?

her q slows and not everyone has a dash.

Ralanr2 votes

It’s not a big enough slow that you can’t walk out of. Especially the side of it which is shorter.

Like, I doubt it’s more effective than Jhin’s E slow (though I don’t have time to look up the actual slow % of each ability) but you literally walk out of his when you proc it. For Poppy, most people who get hit with the second proc either stand in it, walk into it, or are wall stunned.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

It’s not a big enough slow that you can’t walk out of. Especially the side of it which is shorter.

Like, I doubt it’s more effective than Jhin’s E slow (though I don’t have time to look up the actual slow % of each ability) but you literally walk out of his when you proc it. For Poppy, most people who get hit with the second proc either stand in it, walk into it, or are wall stunned.

its a big enough slow before you have boots. which allows her to bully a lot of champions around early on. if she cant, she can poke at them with her shield.

im not saying poppy is overpowered or broken by any means. but i still think its a general issue with tanks that riot doesnt really want them to be tanks. because that would be "too boring" to watch.

i really think their desire to make the game more fun to watch as an esport is hurting the games health in a lot of places and makes it feel shit to play.

you could make tanks feel tanky, but youd have to tune down their damage to keep them balanced. this means in tank vs. tank lanes they wouldnt be able to kill each other, and youd actually have to win by better csing, lane control and roam plays. but people would complain that those lanes would be "boring farm fests".

Ralanr1 votes

Riot doesn’t want them to not fight. That’s generally a problem with PvP tanks, making them able to fight players that aren’t as easy to aggro as mobs.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

Riot doesn’t want them to not fight. That’s generally a problem with PvP tanks, making them able to fight players that aren’t as easy to aggro as mobs.

i think that riot doesnt want them not to fight is a real issue.

theyve forgotten that this is a strategy game. everything you do in this game, including fighting other champions, is just a means to an end to take objectives.

look at how many strategies that involve not fighting your opponent they have killed over the years.

counterjungling is practically worthless in comparison to spam ganking lanes. absolitely any champion in the game used to be able to jungle at some point. heck, we even had karthus jungle, and phreak used to be famous for being able to jungle every single champion in the game, including supports. how viable is anything but an aggressive early game jungler these days?

i think this is part of the reason why comebacks feel a lot harder these days. because strategies that arent focused around direct confrontation and being able to fight other champions have been phased out of the game.

Alzon1 votes

O R A J U N G L E R

L I Y A N1 votes

Because as i said bruisers were used to winning fights, and also you want to go for cs right? if you want to do that, you have to walk up to her. Duhhh

Ralanr1 votes

So...you’re taking both procs of her Q because you refuse to adapt and move?

L I Y A N1 votes

I am taking both procs of her Q because i need to take cs, so if i move i basically lose cs, so tanks are zoners now aswell. got you. Lets give them higher ad ratio so the tank players cant complain about full ad ornn not working

Ralanr1 votes

Well yeah some tanks have the ability to zone. You’re supposed to adapt to that.

TheSingularity1 votes

Have thrown a post up in GP that addresses some of your concerns if you wanna pop by

TheSingularity1 votes

I have a gp+ post that should be up in a few days that addresses your concerns. It's too much of a wall of text to just copy+paste.

But a few things:

  1. Cho isn't a tank.
  2. Resolve tree offers more offense than you think
  3. Some tanks are definitely overbearing because their damage pattern is wrong. Tanks should deal dps, not burst. Grag, ornn and poppy deal burst which is a problem in gameplay health.
  4. Most mobile bruisers are in fact too weak bar a select few. Aka divers
  5. Most tanks are very weak compared to the past.
  6. An immobile bruiser is a juggernaut. If you're losing to a poppy as a juggenaut you're doing something wrong.

As I said. Allot of you concerns are addressed in my thread. Should be up in a couple days as gp+ threads generally pop up at the end of the week

Ralanr1 votes

I disagree on tanks doing burst being unhealthy. If their trading pattern is in burst, I think that’s fine for some tanks as they would generally lose extended trades. So they’d want short trades.

TheSingularity1 votes

The issue with that is riot doesn't know how to execure it properly. Mal, ornn, grag, pop. Their damage is either point and click, or very close to point and click and dont have long enough cooldowns.

If they have a burst pattern they need a trade off in: high cooldowns, weak aoe damage. If sustained: low damage per rotation, unreliable (generally limited by range).

It can work. But it doesn't due to poor balance. Burst tanks dont have long enough windows of vulnerability to be abused as they often have one spammy spell

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