Udyr Changes in PBE - A Challenger Udyr's thoughts

So a bit of a copypasta from my same post in the Udyr subreddit, but I wanted to get this message out to try to get people to discuss more about this champion both the people who hate going against him and the people who adore him. I have no love/lost with pheonix stance, but it disheartens me that our first attention on this stance in a while is focused solely on the AA cone portion instead of giving it a core identity or giving this champion a one point wonder that most champions have already in league.

"The spirit of copy pasta has entered me." (Reddit copy below from here on)

Hey there everyone, it's been some time before I've had my chance to really sink my teeth into these changes and see what has had so many people up in hope and seeing the realm in the light. Now honestly I'm going to be direct and break down some of my personal beliefs, however I'm not looking for a echo chamber but simply to engage in simple thought excerises concerning Pheonix udyr, tiger udyr and the shift of the game of league of legends throughout these last few seasons.

I will offer this respectful disclaimer, I have not mained/played phoenix udyr in his prime. I've been a Tiger only since season 3 and was a top lane main, I've only started to learn jungle last season as a main so I lack the rose tinted glasses when I see it.

1: This buff does nothing to address Phoenix stance's problem, especially in this meta.

Phoenix stance was stronger in a meta that favored more optimal jungle farm, with faster respawn cycles. Champions who could not keep up would fall behind, remember who was strong? Shyvana, and currently she's being played AP. Phoenix stance's ability to use the jungle resources to their optimal set was a secondary reason why so many of us remember devourer phoenix so fondly. Obviously in a simple process that whatever could stack the most jungle camps quickly would be crazy effective burst damage from phoenix. Add in that tiger simply couldn't even hope to compare to this with 3 of the 5 jungle camps being AoE (I think gromp was added after devourer meta, can't remember doesn't matter.) and was only one burst of tiger dot per activation. This meant even with AS tiger wasn't that much better.

However that has all changed, jungle camps have gone up in respawn time and down in XP. 5 of the 8 (goes down to 4 out of 7 after first scuttles) camps are a single large monster that favors single target dps and 1 of the AoE camps is also easily picked off by single targets. The highest xp camp of Krugs still favors AoE. However jungle can no longer stack a powerful jungle item for a mid-game powerspike as the best powerspike both Tiger and phoenix can grab is Cinderhulk, which results in this for a 10s dps:

(This test was performed with Conq, Triumph, Legend tenacity, last stand, with zombie ward (0 stacks) and ravneous hunter (Also 0) a lvl 12 udyr. Ninja tabi's were used as a measuring stick between. Stat shards were 10% AS + 5 adaptive + scaling health. All tests use the above stats

10 seconds DPS Tiger (Cinder only) 1957.

1970 test 2

10 seconds phoenix dps 1586 test 1

10 seconds test 2 - 1497

Please note that no idiot in his right mind is letting you sit on top of him for 10 seconds without doing something back. Tiger is able to dish out it's damage faster, with higher single target damage, and respectfully this results in more kill secures. Also note that due to having higher base damage that does not require you standing actively on top of target to dish out (Note phoenix base of 90 damage is 50 up front, then 40 over 4 seconds. Tigers is one AA (the same phoenix requires) and is 100+). What this means is that phoenix requires time to scale up, tank up and then function in a protect the adc meta.

However this leads to problem 2

2: Pheonix Udyr lacks any items that allow it to scale effectively into the game, when most items people attempt simply are better suited for Tiger Udyr.

Triforce, Wits End, Dead Man's, even Cinderhulk. All of these items sound like they have use on Pheonix stance, but they all lack a strong theme resonance with phoenix, phoenix stance needs Health, Armor, magic resist and CDR to scale more effectively. This is due to the fact that it's base damage relies on up time on it's aoe pheonix burn (6 second base cd, to optimize aoe fire burn of phoenix you need to bring that CD to 4 seconds.). Triforce is very expensive on a junglers budget, furthermore on pure phoenix udyr it throws the use of the AD out the window. While the sheen effect is nice, you're left with a udyr who would simply be better on tiger to scale with the AD and focus on bursting squishy targets. The main goal of users who use triforce in this meta. Using a triforce to attempt to duel any current tanks/juggernauts with phoenix will result in a dead udyr. Cinderhulk while effective in helping your jungle clear doesn't really need it as much as tiger uses it to speed his AOE camp clears, and effectively just power focus down the biggest monster in a camp. Yet I will concede that the sheer speed of camp clearing is powerful, but think of every current meta jungler right now, and what do they all have in common?

3: Phoenix stance has zero tempo when it's needed most, unable to force objectives and even answer ganks.

Phoenix stance doesn't have the kill pressure of single target, it's best used in teamfights where Udyr cannot afford to build damage and still have great base damage. The problem here is most junglers are ganking at lvl 3, and phoenix udyr can do nothing to hecarim, to rek'sai to kindred and so many other champions. Just because tiger got weaker doesn't simply make these champions stop being as successful as before. Phoenix udyr remains just as vulnerable till he gets more base levels to farm himself back into success. And due to the single target camps IF a phoenix udyr chooses to get a single point in tiger he forgo's a third of the late game buffs he was just given & delays when he either gets a strong shield or mobility.

Adding to this point is the inability to solo objectives, tiger's increase attack speed and repeat dots on a single jungle camp makes soloing objectives a powerful tool in an early game focused kit. This is much and more significantly slower on Phoenix udyr and adding 30 damage per cone does NOTHING to add to this. If your teammates fail to aid you you'll be worst off then most other tank junglers, all who have either A: (High resistances, rammus) % damage (Sejuani, Zac, Amumu). The main problem then comes into that...

4: Phoenix Udyr has no place in a team comp that isn't served by a better target.

With the amount of % damage in this game, Phoenix Udyr's strict base damage is subpar in remaining a threat to anyone who builds even the tiniest amount of MR. Without % damage Phoenix udyr has no means of threatening a frontline, and if he forgo's lvling his W second he is squishier for it. Due to the delay burst of phoenix compared to tiger and the lack of any damaging items many squishy targets will be just as easily peeled for compared to tiger, however they have much longer. If a squishy target can DENY phoenix udyr the ability to stand on top of him for even two seconds that's an entire 100 base damage of magic removed. This only gets worst as the game goes on because.

5: Tiger Udyr gets tankier, faster and with far more success.

This is due to one big item, Sterak's gage. For the same gold of cinderhulk, dead man's plate and maybe a cloth armor a tiger udyr has access to one of the biggest juggernaut items in the game. He is left with the follow stats compared to a pheonix udyr when both also have their wits end included.

However in the DPS department...

PHoenix 10 sec dps + Deadman + Dagger ( to make up for gold dif) 1467

Tiger with Sterak's gage - 2,400

Tiger with wits - 3,300

Phoenix with Dead Man's & Wits 2300-2500

Please note while phoenix udyr has dead mans' and either E or W maxed, Tiger has E maxed second and a 700+ health shield that will proc in the middle of the fight while he is focusing a single target down.

Now you may say that didn't Udyr get nerfed? Here is the tiger dot difference, at rank 5 with only a sterak's gage.

Pre Nerf Udyr Tiger Dot Damage

150+ 311

Post Nerf Udyr Tiger Dot Damage

150 + 303

A difference of 8 damage at lvl 12, that is nothing for this build and will continue to excel as it has been. The problem here is that this buff didnt' really solve any core issues with phoenix, it tried to make it more viable while addressing the simple problem of "why ever pick phoenix" the situation with league and udyr remains the same as always.

League of Legends as a game needs to fundamentally change for Phoenix to be viable, or Phoenix udyr needs to be given a true identity and items that allow him to flourish. Right now this is simply not the case, there are so few items that you can make even a case that belong on phoenix udyr that you couldn't get more leverage out of tiger. With the only one I'm even considering is abyssal mask due to the magic amp and that's truly pushing what you should be buying on this champion. With the buff focused more on his cone, this still requires you to physically get on targets you're attempting to kill and hit them with the cone effect to gain any leverage. Unfournately if you're not tanky enough to survive via items or maxing W second (Which means it'd be harder for you to get ON the targets) you're left fighting the tankier front line. Which after the removal of the rune system...everyone saw a bump in their base magic resist., then adc's saw a bump in their base line HP.

The lvl 16 buffs mean almost nothing as by that time Udyr's winrate starts declining and a slight buff to your tiger dot (Though My build will be quite content with this, more AS and AD? Yes please.) and phoenix's tiny jump will also mean very little as at this point ADC's are chunking out so much serious damage that if you're on top of them you're likely getting chewed down already. Per riot's own stats, this buff only will impact 33% of all Udyr junglers and by this stage of the game Udyr as a champion simply functions as a peel bot. It's a feel good buff, a nice buff, but the sheer fact we're locked out of putting six points in our core abilities till most champions are getting their third points in their ULTIMATE, with their last two ability points being put on their one-point wonder abilities is simply amazing to me. What this change does is effectively mean if Udyr tries to flex for his early game, he's denied one of these buffs (Taking a single point in tiger to help early clear on pure phoenix jungle udyr) or that he still struggles in the simple aspect of being completely outmatched by that point. Udyr's early game was weaken to provide a stance that still has no quantity that isn't based around memes, around famous streamers and lastly around the fundamental issue that the game of league we play today, where phoenix was king and dishing pain through the rift isn't here anymore.

And bringing up it's base damage slightly but not undoing the nerf of it's team fighting component as well is simply unsettling that we've bought into this.

PS: For 5xx5, you'll have a weaker early game but your mid game will excel due to the increase in all of your phoenix glory. Still think the core issue remains 5xx5 relies purely on being provided great tank items, and with steraks existing as such a superb 2nd item rush why would you do this when you can get steraks and be even tankier?