Bard: Useless or really useless?

writethemwrong·Mar 22, 2015·45 votes·30,225 views

Q: His only form of CC. Slow is ok, doesn't scale with AP. To get the stun, you need to be Hawkeye-Avengers level to hit consistently.
W: A heal that your opponent can step on.
E: A portal that can help your team mobilize...that the enemy team can also use. The half of half of half of movespeed reduction means nothing.
R: An ult that can just as easily hurt your team or help. Combine the fun of mistiming Janna's ult with fat fingering Zhonya's.

Bard's seems like it was heavily overconceptualized, a problem that has been evident with the last few new champions. Nothing is simple anymore; everything has to have it's own gimmick or schtick. It's great when there's a missing spot in the roster for it but when it's completely overdone and overdesigned you get something like Bard. "Let's add this but also there's this thing and oh yeah this mechanic. Let's be able to do this but this could also happen...or could it?" Nothing makes sense, nothing's practical, and nothing's useful.

116 Comments

RiotRiot TikiMar 22, 201534 votes

Honestly, I think Bard needs time to shake out before passing judgement. His kit feels like it's almost completely utility based (much like Thresh) but in some ways that I'm just not used to. When to roam vs. not (though damn it's fun to collect chimes) is huge. When used effectively, magical journey and his ult are ridiculously good... and frankly I'm not good with them.

In the end, the champ may need tuning, but I'm wary about reacting too quickly and creating a monster. I'm interested to see where Bard is in a month or two. I'm also not on the champion team, so yeah :)

writethemwrongMar 22, 201510 votes

Funny you should mention Thresh. Why is it only your team mates can use Thresh's lantern but absolutely anyone can use Bard's portal?

RiotRiot TikiMar 22, 201518 votes

Hmm, wasn't part of the design process, but if I had to guess I'd say it's relative power/utility. Tresh's lantern is really good, but limited to one teammate. Bard's Magical Journey has the potential for a free pass for your whole team to go through any terrain. From a pure utility standpoint, the journey is stronk. So maybe it's a way to balance it out?

I also see some potential risk/reward thinking there that could lead to more interesting gameplay. Thresh's lantern is cool for narrow escapes or setting up a nice tower dive, but the risk feels fairly low. Magical Journey could literally re-position your whole team for a fight/gank but could also has potential for spectacular failures like dumping the whole team into an ambush or accidentally giving the enemy team a way to keep chasing you.

My two cents on why, but an interesting question to ask!

GhastlyGhoulManMar 22, 20152 votes

I really want to see a team where both Jarvan and Bard are on the same team. Jarvan traps his team in his ult first, then Bard follows up with his OWN ult.

Spectacular failure indeed. ;) Trundle

DrukyulMar 22, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I really want to see a team where both Jarvan and Bard are on the same team. Jarvan traps his team in his ult first, then Bard follows up with his OWN ult.

Spectacular failure indeed. ;)

Wouldn't that be a spectacular win? Jarvan traps friendly team, enemy team starts casting all their strongest AOE spells, Bard blocks them all with his ult. Flawless strategy!

GhastlyGhoulManMar 24, 20151 votes

I have to admit, that would be the most amazing ult-bait ever lol.

GigglingAngelMar 23, 20152 votes

The differences between Bard's kit/utility and Thresh's is that:

Thresh's utility is solely useful for his team and not the enemy's.
Thresh's kit is far easier to grasp and make use of.
Bard's kit makes him someone who can only excel with proper/precise communication, meaning programs outside of League must be used to use him effectively. Thresh can still perform very well without much communication.

BADxW0LFMar 23, 20152 votes

The one thing that I could see in helping making him more effective is widening his Q a little bit. Not much, but kinda like what was done to Varus' ult (obviously not that wide, but you get my point). Everything else seems fine to me. I think he is fun to play. You just have to get his timing right on his ult since it has that slight delay and when to roam. I see people who roam whenever they want because they think "oh i have to collect chimes! it's of much greater importance than helping my ADC in laning phase." I get that you need to collect chimes with him, I play him every now and then myself, but you don't leave your ADC in a 1v2 situation with them crowding your tower. Plus, you get more xp in lane than you would by collecting the chimes. I only go out when one of the enemy laners recalls, we have lane pushed, or when I need mana.

JunkοMar 23, 20153 votes

That's weird. When Yasuo, Kalista, Azir, Gnar and every other new champion had 39% winrate you buffed them instantly despite people not even realizing how to play them properly and how strong they are... But for Bard you are really careful despite the fact that he has WAY less carry potential and his abilities actually can backfire horribly.

SEKAIMar 22, 201524 votes

Bard's seems like it was heavily overconceptualized, Nothing is simple anymore; Nothing makes sense, nothing's practical, and nothing's useful.

http://www.troll.me/images2/goat-anymore/the-truth-has-been-spoken.jpg

RozzetaMar 22, 20154 votes

I totally agree with this. To think that there was a time in which a skill's description could simply say "deals a lot of damage".

insaiyanbaccaMar 22, 20155 votes

tons of damage*

Major SparklesMar 22, 201512 votes

As the OP has pointed out Bard has obvious weaknesses. However, I don't like how one sided this thread is so I'd like to offer a different opinion:

First of all Bard is a champion that requires mastery and you have to play SMART with him. For example his ult can change the course of a game.

Dive towers at little to no risk. Especially early.
Protects your team against heavy AOE comps.
Allows you to chase down fleeing opponents.
Freeze the enemy team while they're taking drag or baron. This allows your jungler to get a no contest steal.

Secondly Bards Magical Journey is really under-appreciated,** it is the ultimate bait and switch**. This ability sucks for lane but if coordinated can provide a beastly way for junglers like Udyr to close the gap. Also... :

You can cast it at fountain to provide a long tunnel to take you and your allies nearly to the exit of the base.
Bait enemies to follow you into your team waiting on the other side.
Makes contesting Baron easier as your whole team can walk down from the back.
Travel across the entire enemy base wall to rapidly destroy base towers.
Allows for awesome team splits around enemy towers. Placing your passage beside enemy turret allows your bruiser and someone else to go in behind enemy lines to eviscerate everyone in an epic death sandwich.

I'm not going to disagree with the OP that Bards heals are weak when used on demand. However they're a lot like Batman, they need prep-time, but when you've got a low health ally who picks up 3 fully charged heals it can make a huge impact in a scrap. In regards to having them get stepped on by enemies, if you're letting the enemy step on them and they're not paying for it, you're playing Bard really wrong. The only time an enemy should be allowed to even touch your heals is if you're using them as bait.

Let's not forget that bards heal can give a huge early advantage to your jungler by providing 3 early heals for them. Doing this allows for an easy clear and then inturn a safe pre-shop gank.

Bard's Q can make spectaular plays and it feels awesome to get a stun off. I do agree that it is probably the weakest part of his kit though. It moves slowly, does a depressing amount of damage, and it's range is kind of awkward. Cosmic binding could probably use a quality of life buff, however, it's not too far off from being in a good place.

His passive is interesting... you really reed to be smart about when you're roaming for chimes or else you'll kill yourself and your laner. Personally I think the chimes spawn a tad too slow to let his passive scale effectively into the late game but for the mana and deep warding opportunities it provides, it makes it worth it.

So to summarize, people just got to give him a chance. He's REALLY powerful when in the right hands.

Leti the YetiMar 22, 201510 votes

is there a 3rd state of useless for those who has ascended past really useless?

idk like super useless 3 :l

Daddy Found YouMar 22, 20158 votes

disagree

SaiannaMar 22, 20157 votes

But who orders you to play him? I've bought Bard only because of his heals. I love the idea of creating "med packs". Also what do you want him to be/have? 10 knockups would be allright? Or maybe few more silences/stuns? Oh, or enemy champions are insta-killed after stepping on his HP pack?

Bard is fine. Maybe he lacks damage, but he's defensive/passive support.

PartholonianMar 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Oh, or enemy champions are insta-killed after stepping on his HP pack?

Instakilled would be OP of course, but maybe they could, say, damage and slow whoever steps on them, working as a kind of trap that could be used to zone in some situations. Almost a visible shroom (although weaker because it's not an ultimate).

That would give him a lot more to think about in where to place them (kind of like Lulu deciding whether to ally or enemy cast her W and E).

SaiannaMar 22, 20155 votes

But then Bards would kinda forget to help their lane mates..

"You need health? But my relic wants to explode :("

Ariel the CruelMar 22, 20151 votes

Then remove the damage and give him . . . Another slow . . ? (3 slows in 1 kit, why not?)

SaiannaMar 22, 20151 votes

Tbh i'd prefer silence.. We really need more silences. They are unique and slowly dissapear from our game..

It's like Rito hates silence...

Ariel the CruelMar 22, 20154 votes

You'd think they would like silence with all the Lee Sin and Zed hate they've been ignoring. XD

JunkοMar 23, 20151 votes

Problem with a silence is that he is a support, so it would be pretty much useless for the first half of the game. Malzahar, Cho, Talon, LB and Kassadin (idk if there is anybody else with a silence) are all(or were originally) midlaners, and assassins were fairly unpopular so it helped them a lot.

DreadPirateChrisMar 24, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurny Quilva,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8ebctFiU,comment-id=000400000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-03-23T14:16:22.873+0000)

Problem with a silence is that he is a support, so it would be pretty much useless for the first half of the game. Malzahar, Cho, Talon, LB and Kassadin (idk if there is anybody else with a silence) are all(or were originally) midlaners, and assassins were fairly unpopular so it helped them a lot.

Talon, LeBlanc, and Kassadin no longer have a silence.

Soraka is a support and has a silence, and while it is generally weaker in the bot lane, currently bursty caster ADCs (Graves and Corki) are strong in the meta and it is stronger against them. Not apparently strong enough to get her picked up in pro play despite it being a decent counter to an AD caster all-in.

Blitzcrank is another support with a silence, but I don't think the silence is the reason he's seen some LCS play. (Most champions don't survive long enough after a blitz Q-E-R combo to realize that they've been silenced. If they lived through blitz's combo they didn't live through his team's follow-up.)

The total list of champions with silence is Malzahar, Cho'Gath, Soraka, Blitzcrank, Garen, and of course, Fiddlesticks.

JunkοMar 24, 20151 votes

Well i did use past tense, but eh i can see why you would miss or misunderstand it.

Soraka has a silence to prevent enemies from escaping her E (and it can still be walked out of). Blitz has a silence to prevent people from escaping after he pulled and knocked them up. Fiddlestick and Garen idk, but it still helps their kit since you can't escape from neither while silenced.

Silence just wouldn't have anything to do in Bard's kit. He silenced you now what? You can just walk away or AA him to death since there is really no penalty for completely ignoring the silence.

NAVYisBEASTJul 7, 20161 votes

Garden his q silences

It Hertz When IPMar 22, 20152 votes

Make his Q mark a target for X seconds, revealing them and preventing them from stealthing.

Or make his health relics, instead of having one spike in effectiveness, grow in effectiveness gradually to a greater value.

Make him able to shut down Magical Journey at any point, dealing damage to enemies that are in transit and shunting them to either the start or end point depending on how far they made it through the tunnel.

Make hits with meeps proc spell effects (Liandry's Torment, Luden's Echo, Archangel's Staff/Tear of the Goddess procs)

Any of these would improve his power without making him OP.

writethemwrongMar 22, 20151 votes

Never said I had to play him. No one's holding a gun to my head but thanks for your concern, I was touched.

Do you love the idea of your med pack being stepped on? When do you have time to drop a med pack in a fight? Or do you enjoy using the instant heal that's nowhere near on par with other supports?

SaiannaMar 22, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Never said I had to play him. No one's holding a gun to my head but thanks for your concern, I was touched.

Do you love the idea of your med pack being stepped on? When do you have time to drop a med pack in a fight? Or do you enjoy using the instant heal that's nowhere near on par with other supports?

You think of him as any other support... And that's wrong

He's like totally new kind of supports. Now about his heals, it might not be as much hp as other healing supports but: 1.) rather decent CD 10s~ 2.) can place max 3. So in time when there's no serious fight he can put 'em for his ADC, while other supports can heal you once per fight 3.) speed boost is awesome. It's so high that it doesn't need to scale with AP 4.) healing amount is fine, that is, if you wait 10 seconds till it grows :)

And about stepping on health packs.. I just exaggarated. I enjoy things as they are now

JumbaJoopleakleyMar 22, 20156 votes

His Q doesn't need more damage like they're giving it. They need to make it faster, longer range, and/or wider so you can actually hit it.

His heal needs a better way of telling people it's done, or needs to heal way more at it's 10 sec completion than it does. at rank 1 it's a 30-70 heal, but a rank 5 it's a 150-230 heal. This is worse than Taric and Soraka for a non-instant heal.

Also, just give him all of his meeps right of the bat (4 to be exact), as I've never gotten more 2 in any of my games as him. Without them I feel like I don't contribute much to fight. Another option is having their respawn effected by CDR so they come back faster.

His ult and E are fine, you just have to have people who know what they're doing to use them.

I should note I like bard, but he needs fixes like these, not arbitrary damage boosts.

DasCabbageManFeb 23, 20171 votes

I really like the CDR meep idea. Hate it when I have to CS as midland bard and the enemy just wants to start a fight after my meeps are gone

AziriouslyMar 22, 20156 votes

Anyone who thinks Bard is useless doesn't know how to play him or play with him on your team. But of course there are so many people who don't know how to use him which only makes the community thinks he's a bad champ when they get these inevitable players on their team.

writethemwrongMar 22, 20153 votes

{quoted} But of course there are so many people who don't know how to use him which only makes the community thinks he's a bad champ when they get these inevitable players on their team.

Except the numbers back it up too. His win rate is pathetic.

SpecterVonBarenMar 22, 20156 votes

Honestly, it's his popularity that's more appalling than his winrate. Even someone as buggy as Azir was still pretty popular a week after his release, Bard went from being played all the time to being barely played at all within two days!

Major SparklesMar 22, 20152 votes

Evidence suggests that the community at large don't like strategic play-style champions. It's all about the twitch or tactical play.

LucidLunaticMar 23, 20151 votes

Still far too popular in my games. If I'm not playing support, I get stuck with a terrible Bard...

4nth0l0gyMar 22, 20155 votes

I really wanted Bard to do well, you know? He's such a neat concept. But he doesn't do enough combat-wise unfortunately (What good is an awesome AoE CC during a teamfight if your team can't damage the enemy during it?); he's a bit too passive.

Good on Riot for trying though. I'm glad he got made.

Ariel the CruelMar 22, 20154 votes

Tower dive enemy.
Ult tower.
???
Profit.
Start team fight.
ult enemy back/front line.
???
profit.
Notice Kathus/kat ult.
Ult Them.
???
profit.

His ult has some good combat uses. Pray to Morello that he doesn't miss though, or he may screw you over instead.

writethemwrongMar 22, 20151 votes

Highlighting the absolute ideal scenarios doesn't really do anything to validate Bard's inconsistencies. Literally, try to do any of those and you'll see.

Major SparklesMar 22, 20153 votes

Those scenarios are going to show up in 90% of games. Except for Karthus of course.

writethemwrongMar 22, 20152 votes

Sure but it's never so simple. Bard's ult could help your team or just as easily hurt you or it could be absolutely pointless.

Team fights, for example, are not all created equal. Sometimes you don't have a front line or back line and it's just two big blobs, what then? Would you rather have Bard in that situation or Lulu or Sona? Let's say you do ult the back line carries, is that what they want? To be spared damage while their front line soaks up damage and cds? They're not hindered in any way to come right back while your team had no choice but to focus on their front line. What if their front line is the most fed? How do you stop their front line without gimping your team's?

Bard's ult is so situational with so little reward and I think that's just asking too much.

Ariel the CruelMar 22, 20151 votes

I agree it's situational. But even it's low use cases have a very high potential reward.

The biggest problem I see with him is his contradicting power spikes.

His kit screams for early game. And he has the potential to rule it with spades.
But his passive doesn't peak until late game - if you're lucky.
His Stun is short for the relative difficulty of landing and needs to be ranked up.
His health packs take too long to charge and the speed boost too short to be useful mid/late game. While early ranks have some of the lowest base heals around.
Magical Journey makes for god-like ganks. Which don't exist once laning phase is over.
His ult's strongest use is to enable tower dives. Which are few and far between after lane phase.

They want him to be strong early game. But they make him to rely on mid/late game scaling.

At least. That's currently my impression of him.

GavranMar 22, 20151 votes

If your #1 use and "strongest use" for his ult is Ohmwrecker... that item that nobody builds ever... maybe it's not a very good ult?

Ariel the CruelMar 22, 20151 votes

Implying OhmWrecker is a bad item. Wrecker's biggest problem is by the time it becomes reasonably buildable, it is no longer reasonably needed.

The stats aren't that great. and the passive just comes too late.

GavranMar 23, 20151 votes

I'll grant the price point is a factor, but it's hardly a great item and the only way it could be is if it was absurdly underpriced.

Now, I absolutely don't think disabling a tower is the best use for Bard's ult, and even if it were the fact that you can use it for other situations still makes it better than Ohmwrecker... but it's not an amazing ult. Amumu has an amazing ult. Sejuani has an amazing ult. Bard has a weird ult with a massive drawback. (That it hits friendlies and enemies. One or the other would be much easier to use effectvely, though of course it would sacrifice options for that.)

Mind, I'm not saying Bard sucks either. He sucks when you're not a great strategic level play-maker though, and he sucks when you are but your team doesn't know how to follow your lead / react. If you really want Bard (and his weird ult) to be successful, maybe try to get some videos of good uses and make a compilation thread?

A Superb VillainMar 22, 20155 votes

http://33.media.tumblr.com/6df34dcf235c0f028292e2e5fcdd3bf2/tumblr_nl4cyqNmr31sdk5d7o1_500.gif

Bard does not conform to typical design; thinking outside the box could yield interesting results.

Sunfire SandalsMar 22, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Superb Villain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8ebctFiU,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2015-03-22T20:42:19.331+0000)

http://33.media.tumblr.com/6df34dcf235c0f028292e2e5fcdd3bf2/tumblr_nl4cyqNmr31sdk5d7o1_500.gif

Bard does not conform to typical design; thinking outside the box could yield interesting results.

dat fly by smite

PhoquelesanimauxMar 22, 20155 votes

Remember this thread guys, in few months everyone will say "PLZ NERF BARD TOO OP".

I spam Bard since PBE and I love him to death. He is the funniest support I played and he's very good if you understand him. I don't have enough time to discuss about him but someday I'll write a guide :) Playing Bard is like discovering a brand new dimension to League of Legends. Give him some time and don't apprehend him like any other support or champion.

Thank you Riot ! Bard