@Riot Very important about "Garen"

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If they want to keep that horrid mechanic then perhaps allow Garen to choose periodically who the damn villain is. If people are crying about him using it to abuse lane then make it so that he can unlock personal preference at level 2 demacian justice.

Otherwise I agree with villainous takedowns buffing him in some way that increases his power permanently.

i kindof understand why people can hate to play against it. on the other hand i absolutely loved how the ability turned out.

especially as a top laner its often hard to have a strong impact on a game, since so many games are decided by mid lane and bot lane very early on. garens villain passive allowed me to take over for my team and carry a game myself when i came out strong of my lane, while my own bot lane lost.

it usually means the enemy assassin in the jungle or on mid lane, or the enemy marksman made themselves the villain and it gave me a chance to shut them down and have an actual impact on the game, get my team the shutdown gold and get us back into the game.

this is definitely what i liked about the villain mechanic.

if they made garen be able to chose his own villain, there would be he next problem that theyd probably nerf his kit pretty heavily in return. this time they might just completely remove his silence.

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How about we don't make him even faster and more unpeelable than he is right now?

you cant be serious. how the fuck is he unpeelable? you see him coming at you, he doesnt have a hard gap closer, and you can easily peel him off a target once hes there.

considering that the goal should be to not let him get into spin range in the first place and that garen should have a certain ability to stick, because otherwise he would be entirely useless, hes still pretty forgiving to fight.

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8MUzEAhz,comment-id=000d0000000100000000,timestamp=2016-07-02T19:59:04.250+0000)

according to meddler it has spiked due to a bugfix to his pull that made the ability more reliable and allows him to pull people mid dash.

Source?

also, what you just described fits every juggernaut in the game. slow, team dependent, damage focused.

No, I didn't just describe every juggernaut in the game actually.

Illaoi has a lot of ranged AOE harass (Garen has small AOE, but is actually punished for utilizing his AOE spell as an AOE spell, and it's hardly ranged) with her Q and her E. Darius can to some extent poke with his Q and has hard CC with his E to either peel for his back line or catch an enemy. Mordekaiser can poke with his E, and indeed is reliant on abusing his range advantage in lane against melee champions to bully them. Skarner has a lot of crowd control.

Garen is alone in being completely melee without any hard CC or gap closers.

Oh, he also has no combat sustain, which further weakens his team fighting and dueling.

just like marksmen theyre carries who are supposed to rely on the support of their team. only to get into arms length of their opponents instead of staying out of them.

Sure, and this has worked well for Darius' design. Garen is a piece of dog shit though.

compared to many other juggs, hes actually less binary. hes a bit more mobile than darius, illaoi, mundo, or nasus but doesnt have the pentakill potential of the first two.

First of all, he is frankly less mobile than Dr. Mundo. Mundo's ult gives him a level of stickiness that Garen can't match.

Darius actually has utility, along with mechanics in place to allow him to deal with enemy front liners.

Garen's sole use is trying to kill enemy squishies, and he either gets on them and kills them, or he doesn't and is kited and possibly killed. The definition of a binary champion. Illaoi is fairly binary, but not to the same extent as Garen. She can at least help poke and siege with her team, while Garen is standing around looking like an asshole while he either waits for his engager to dive or waits for a punk ass enemy Talon to try to dive his carry.

Nasus is more versatile than Garen. Nasus is basically the overall best duelist in the game, which makes him a powerful split pusher (compared to Garen, who gets ass stomped by a real duelist like Tryndamere, Trundle, Master Yi, Jax, or, well, Nasus). He's also better in team fights, since he can shut down the enemy ADC's damage, provide AOE damage and an armour shred for his team, and actually deal some damage to an enemy front liner. He's by no means fantastic in team fights, but he's better than Garen. Nasus is binary in the sense that if he was able to stack safely he can have a big impact on the game, and if he doesn't stack safely he'll be useless dog shit.

the villain mechanic isnt toxic. it just gives him reliable damage against priority targets. as youve said, he is kitable and has more counterplay than even most marksmen.

Let me drop you a little scenario. Imagine you're a little punk ass Riven being beaten in lane by a Garen, but through a good TP play bottom lane you managed to pick up a double kill and now you're back in the game. Only... you are now the Villain, which means that Garen is now doing more damage to you despite the fact that you just gained a significant amount of strength.

Garen's villain mechanic literally punishes you for doing well. It's nothing more than free stats that Garen does literally nothing to earn. Fiora has to build AD to benefit from her true damage, and Vayne has to build attack speed. Garen doesn't have to do a fucking thing for his true damage steroid, which is a problem because if you recall he had a lot of his base damages and shit lowered to compensate for this guaranteed damage.

Now, if Garen and his team get ahead it becomes almost impossible to deal with them because any small comeback you make will be squashed by Garen suddenly doing even more damage to you because you had the audacity to successfully catch out his ADC. And if they're behind, then his true damage steroid doesn't mean shit because he's still going to get kited before he can get to the enemy ADC, who probably has the damage to kill him.

It's a "win more" mechanic that didn't address Garen's core problems at all, and its inclusion into his kit was a mistake.