Drop Out Of Bronze?

Prince Seere·May 30, 2015·9 votes·1,435 views

Why doesn't the function to drop out of bronze V exist? Say you have 0 LP at bronze V and you lose three consecutive matches. It should be possible to drop back to unranked and have to win best two of three to regain rank. This would help weed out those players that are clearly not ready to play ranked, and allow for those of mediocre skill to truly play at their own skill level. The excuse of "ELO hell" would become completely unfounded. What does everyone else think of this idea? Are there really any problems with it?

29 Comments

NuSix3May 30, 20153 votes

I just think their needs to be another division altogether for spoiled kids under the age of 20. Don't care if they are mechanically better than me. They don't have the maturity to know how to make wins consistent.

Prince SeereMay 30, 20151 votes

How do you determine which ones are the "spoiled kids under 20"? Using reports for bad conduct? In game chats? I understand the types you are referring to, the "This team is too heavy" but have a 10% win ratio due to poor team play and lack of objective based focus. But the ways to identify these to Riot would end up as poor and as abused as the reporting system.

NuSix3May 30, 20151 votes

It wasn't something I seriously think can be applied.

Prince SeereMay 30, 20151 votes

xD I figured as much. It would be nice to remove them to an alternate division like DOTA2 does though.

COWmanLordMay 30, 20152 votes

Can the unspoiled kids under the age of twenty who do have the maturity stay? :D

I would rather not be sent into the abyss.

Prince SeereMay 30, 20151 votes

Of course! :D

NuSix3May 31, 20151 votes

They are out there and they are great to have on my team.

XinZhao2WinNhaoMay 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I just think their needs to be another division altogether for spoiled kids under the age of 20. Don't care if they are mechanically better than me. They don't have the maturity to know how to make wins consistent.

i agree. h8 being placed with ragers and trolls who don't understand how to behave civilized

3TWarriorMay 30, 20152 votes

people are already annoyed enough with the ranking system, lol, imagine platinum or diamond players getting unranked because their teammates are bronze 5 in the improperly ranked time periods, such as the fresh start

Prince SeereMay 30, 20151 votes

I get what you are saying, but anyone of that rank would not get dropped out from diamond to unranked. Normal demotions would still apply. unranked would simply become one step below bronze V. If a diamond player is playing a smurf account at bronze level, 95 times out of 100 he will win the match anyway by feeding on less skilled players. If my reply doesn't quite satisfy your point, could you give me an example?

3TWarriorMay 30, 20151 votes

it's simple...imagine someone who deserves the highest possible rank getting 4 of these unranked players on their team against decent opponents for 3 matches in a row. The ranking system now means nothing because a good player can't get out of ele-non-existance just by circumstance

this could also mean that the lower tier players end up in higher ranks because they had better luck than the high tier players stuck with bronze and below

101100111000May 30, 20152 votes

Do you REALLY want to explain how incredibly impossible it would be for a player of such high skill to be permanently in unranked, let alone bronze?

Very Hard EngageMay 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Do you REALLY want to explain how incredibly impossible it would be for a player of such high skill to be permanently in unranked, let alone bronze?

its quite possible to create a situation where you are new in the season and your MMR is reset, and you lose your placement matches a ton and you get placed in silver 5, now suddenly you start winning a ton because you're clearly better than silver 5 players.

now you start climbing and winning a lot of matches because you're better, your MMR is now higher and you're being placed with higher level players rather quickly, all of a sudden you're silver 4 because you're climbing, but your're playing with silver 2~gold 4 players because MMR is much more sensitive to change and riot wants games to be fair.

now all of a sudden you're in your silver 3 promotional matches and you're only playing with s1 or higher players and riot says you need to win 2/3 games against ALL silver1+ players in the room to advance into silver 2.

thats how MMR/league system work together.

EndlessSorcererMay 30, 20151 votes

When your MMR is higher than your current rank, you earn more LP for victories and lose less for defeats. When I was doing my placements and climbing through Silver the other week, I was matched against Gold and Plat players for most of my game. I was earning ~25LP for each victory and losing ~7LP for each defeat, so it let me quickly rise through the ranks.

If your MMR is higher than your current rank, then you are playing against people of similar skill and it is significantly easier to enter your promo games than if your MMR actually belonged to your current rank.

Very Hard EngageMay 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

When your MMR is higher than your current rank, you earn more LP for victories and lose less for defeats. When I was doing my placements and climbing through Silver the other week, I was matched against Gold and Plat players for most of my game. I was earning ~25LP for each victory and losing ~7LP for each defeat, so it let me quickly rise through the ranks.

If your MMR is higher than your current rank, then you are playing against people of similar skill and it is significantly easier to enter your promo games than if your MMR actually belonged to your current rank.

which is the problem, because if you do actually belong in gold 2 for instance, and you're only playing with other gold 2 players, you will never leave silver 3 because you have to win 2/3 games, or 3/5 games to go up due to the way promotions work.

i gain +27LP per win, but that doesn't give me a better win ratio against the players that i play with.

the system gates me. and i have to go on streaks to climb as opposed to just remaining at my consistent play level.

EndlessSorcererMay 30, 20151 votes

Considering the LP gains and loses when your MMR is higher than your rank, you should be able to easily get into a series. At that point, you only have to win 2/3 or 3/5 games once. If you fail, you can just get to a series again in about 5 games or so.

You'll get there eventually if you deserve to be. Patience is a virtue.

Very Hard EngageMay 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Considering the LP gains and loses when your MMR is higher than your rank, you should be able to easily get into a series. At that point, you only have to win 2/3 or 3/5 games once. If you fail, you can just get to a series again in about 5 games or so.

You'll get there eventually if you deserve to be. Patience is a virtue.

yes, im constantly in promotional games and series, which is obnoxious, promo games are far worse than regular games even though i treat them the same, im far more likely to run into 0/5 laners across the board and end up in my off role breaking even with the opposing enemy team, but i cant carry.

its not like i cant rank up, i just have to play an extraordinary amount more for no good reason.

Prince SeereMay 30, 20151 votes

This is what is referred to "ELO hell", right? What ways could that be adjusted or fixed? Can it even be improved?

Very Hard EngageMay 30, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Prince Seere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7U3kueBV,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-05-30T22:34:20.723+0000)

This is what is referred to "ELO hell", right? What ways could that be adjusted or fixed? Can it even be improved?

elo hell is when you play a ton of games, day in day out you keep playing league. you play 2000+ games into ranked, league says you're bronze 3 material. now after every win/loss you have you gain and lose next to 0 LP, you'll get like 3 per win and 4 per loss. people realize they're playing very poorly and suddenly realize their mistakes and want to rank up.

people in bronze are tired of being in bronze they hate they way everyone plays and the mistakes everyone makes, they see them now but they didnt before. but they cant rank up by themselves because everyone is feeding and he isn't that great of a player to actually make a difference, hes slightly better than bronze 3, but he cant rank up because of his tremendously low MMR.

a lot of people refer to elo hell when team mates just make frequent mistakes, but its actually when you gain and lose very little LP in any direction.

Prince SeereMay 31, 20151 votes

I have never heard of anyone being in a situation where they cannot win/lose more than 3 or 4 LP per game. I have heard of many win streaks that go for 10 - 15 games and get verry little LP per, but then get a HUGE deduction for a single loss. Also, the explaination I have always heard is "All my teammates always feed, I can never get a non-feeding team. I'm stuck in ELO hell!" What you are describing is a totally new definition of that phrase to me.

Very Hard EngageMay 31, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Prince Seere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7U3kueBV,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2015-05-31T00:31:05.204+0000)

I have never heard of anyone being in a situation where they cannot win/lose more than 3 or 4 LP per game. I have heard of many win streaks that go for 10 - 15 games and get verry little LP per, but then get a HUGE deduction for a single loss. Also, the explaination I have always heard is "All my teammates always feed, I can never get a non-feeding team. I'm stuck in ELO hell!" What you are describing is a totally new definition of that phrase to me.

like i said, their team mates suck, they see it, they cant get around it, it feels like a loss is forced onto them and there isn't anything they can do about it, the match was already decided at champ select.

the scenario you described is when players go on a 30+ loss streak and they're horribly losing, they trash their MMR in the process and they need to rebuild it, they start winning again but they gain very little, they need to win 29 more games in order to equalize their MMR and in turn start gaining an even amount of LP again in either direction.

and the 3 or 4 thing occurs when you are extremely static and you consistently play at that level for a very long time, you start to gain and lose nothing.

Prince SeereJun 1, 20151 votes

From my experience as well as commentary from way higher ranked players, most games are still winnable. Even with a feeding team. The problem is, I'll be fed to hell and carrying, but then make a mistake in the late game and throw. That means that it wasn't my team that failed me, but me that failed my team. Would we have won if they played better? Definitely. Would we have lost if I didn't screw up? Definitely not. This tells me that it isn't "ELO hell" that's the problem, it's me. Although the original idea of this discussion was simply to make the system more accurate to the players skill, but obviously there a far too many factors involved to give it a simple one answer fix.

Zen FuryMay 30, 20152 votes

I do think the number of lower level tiers need to be increased to at least meet the proportions of the player base.

Most of the player base is bronze/silver, so those 5 levels are pretty damn crowded. Spacing things out a bit more would probably make things (at least psychologically) better. Maybe add Leather, Stone, and Iron ranks under Bronze. Make it so those tiers have smaller MMR brackets. This at least gives the illusion that progress is being made.

Miku Lv99May 30, 20151 votes

I don't quite get it. You mean win best 2 out of 3 and yet you dropped out and can't even play games? Then who do you even play against in those?

Prince SeereMay 30, 20151 votes

The Idea would be that you play against other players who have also dropped out of bronze.

SwiftKitten88May 30, 20151 votes

i vote no,, not because i don't agree with your premise. but becuase i feel that the way that the games "promos" system works is alredy bad enough wihout the game giving you people it already ranked the absolute worst of bronze 5 on your team during your promos.

LuggMay 30, 20151 votes

In addition, when they drop out, they have to play 25+ games before being eligible to get back in.

RaivicaMay 30, 20151 votes

I feel like it'd end up making Bronze an even WORSE place. It's well intentioned, but you'd have some people that would want to lose games instead of win for the fresh start, and that's the last thing we need is more people on our teams that it feels like they're working against us. But I'm just a salty bronze so take that as you will.

commit an heroMay 30, 20151 votes

Even if you are Bronze V and you are behind a shit ton of losses you won't play with a normal Bronze V player. Everyone forgets that this ranking system is still elo just with a shiny new cover over it.

If you have 700 MMR you will play with people around your MMR. That's just how it works. Even if you're D1 it still doesn't mean shit because you could have crap MMR.