RIP Syndra

Pi Guy Jr·Jan 22, 2015·45 votes·11,574 views

was a 50% win rate, middle-of-the-pack champ that actually took skill to play and they felt the need to nerf her into the ground. Her base Q dmg reduction I have some understanding of and it returns to what it was at Q rank 5, but the hit box reduction on her stun is a MASSIVE nerf. I can't even play this champ anymore. She feels like complete trash tier. She's sub 42% win rate now and I think it's hard to make the claim that people just aren't good at her new changes yet. A lot of the people who play Syndra have lots of games on her including myself because she takes time to get her mechanics down. The stun is literally going through people on East coast ping. I feel like I have no ability to make plays with the smaller stun hit box. Is anyone else experiencing this? How do we explain an 8% drop in win rate? I feel like Riot's balancing priorities are a bit off.

91 Comments

Subject 5Jan 22, 201534 votes

I don't think Riot likes mana based champions.

AlorasenceJan 22, 20158 votes

Katarina nerfs, Zed nerfs, Akali nerfs, Fizz nerfs.....

I'm not even convinced Riot likes champions.

Logical people would look at assassin meta and assume it was created from the massive nerfs to mages and mana regen. They would then buff the mana design.

But Riot understands nerfs and nerfs, But mostly nerfs.

AkesgerothJan 23, 20155 votes

The assassin meta comes from stupidly good AD items.

MrSexyHoboJan 23, 20155 votes

and nerfing of tank items that already have bad cost efficiency all last season

RiotMeddlerJan 23, 201518 votes

We've got a slight increase in the stun's width in patch 5.2 - this was a heavier hit than intended and spheres that clearly went through an enemy should certainly be stunning. Might need additional followup as well, that's not clear yet. We'll need to see what that change does and how well people do once they get used to the adjusted width.

aperson1Jan 23, 20153 votes

Why is it that sometimes the moving sphere will damage but not stun? Shouldn't the two effects be tied together?

RiotMeddlerJan 23, 20156 votes

They should be, yeah. In my own testing when that seems to have happened it's been because the E wave hits the unit, damaging and knocking it back, but the sphere doesn't, and as a result it's not stunned. Are you seeing damage but no stun occur when a unit's well outside of the range of the E wave? Could well be a bug in there if so.

LankPantsJan 23, 20151 votes

I've seen the middle of the orb hit the centre of a champ and not stun or damage them before but I don't think I've ever seen a high range E deal damage and not stun. The odd thing is I'm yet to see this bug in this patch, but in the last 5 or so I've seen it many times. This bug isn't unique to Syndra though, I've seen Lux ults miss dispite people standing dead center in them and Ashe ults fly right through a target. It's not due to ping either as I've had people on both teams say they saw the same thing. I can understand that this bug would be very hard to fix as there is no way to reliably replicate it but there should be plenty of video examples around at least.

The other bug which bothers me about Syndra is the interaction between W and E, sometimes when you W-E to quickly it deals the W damage and slows and sometimes it deals the E damage and stuns. I feel like there really shouldn't be a reason for it to ever have the W effect.

Solidair3Jan 23, 20153 votes

Meddler, can you look for the thread in Report a Bug that someone made fairly recently detailing the E bug? It comes with multiple videos showing multiple situations of E not working even when the ball passes through them clearly!

You can use those to determine if it's a bug or not, but I can honestly say I've seen it stun and deal no damage, or damage and do no stun.

EDIT: Here is a link to said thread, Riot LoveStrut even took a look. I am surprised he hasn't spoken to you about this? http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bug-report/8UbfJEPt-gameplay-syndras-broken-stunkb-10-patches-and-counting

FatedTitanJan 23, 20152 votes

I was playing a couple days ago with some people and this guy tossed a Syndra stun. It hit two people, taking out about 1/5th of their HP because he was really far ahead, but they just walked away without taking any stun.

asktiksJan 24, 20151 votes

hey meddler , could it be that the game detects the E wave pushback, moves the unit back , THEN calculates if the sphere contacts champ or not based on his position when you casted?

what I mean to say is , since both the sphere and the champ are getting pushed back , perhaps the game is registering the sphere not hitting the champ because it gets processed after he has gotten pushed back? im sorry if im not being clear enough , kinda hard to verbalize but you get the gist of it?

also would explain why stuns DO land when its a long ranged E that only sphere hits, not pushback

LichbladeJan 23, 20151 votes

Hey Meddler, seeing that most of all the assassin nerfs went through on the PBE, it is possible if you can please get some reds that have undergo those changes to come and give some more contexts on those changes?

The one I'm most concerned about is a mechanic removal on Akali - Crescent Slash being unable to detonate her Q. This seem pretty huge for her, since some players are probably attached to that basic mechanic.

maikokkJan 23, 20157 votes

it made akali too easy to play.

Nausicäa Jan 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

We've got a slight increase in the stun's width in patch 5.2 - this was a heavier hit than intended and spheres that clearly went through an enemy should certainly be stunning. Might need additional followup as well, that's not clear yet. We'll need to see what that change does and how well people do once they get used to the adjusted width.

Meddler, her stun is clearly bugged as there are multiple instances of the spell passing directly through a champion and not stunning as you pointed out. This only happens some of the time but often enough to be very noticeable.

Im not aware of how the coding in your game works, however will simply increasing the width address problems with an orb passing directly through a champion and not stunning? Isnt this a bug rather an issue of the stun width being too low?

EdgarGrimJan 23, 20151 votes

If they changed how the hit box works with the Q->E then I imagine its the case where the hit box is smaller than the animation currently. I am just glad that they are aware of this problem now and are going to adjust it. I also posted about this problem.

Oddly it seemed to do damage to minions and monsters just fine.

RiotMeddlerJan 23, 20154 votes

A low enough stun width would mean that the very center of the sphere would have to collide with an enemy in order to stun them. We're looking into whether there are any bugs as well just in case, initial reaction though is that this is too narrow a width rather than a just introduced bug.

Overlord ForteJan 24, 20152 votes

I've been speaking with LoveStrut on-off in regards to a very prominent Q+E stun bug, actually.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bug-report/8UbfJEPt-gameplay-syndras-broken-stunkb-10-patches-and-counting

Tentatively this patch seems to have made it 'worse', but I think that's perception bias. It still breaks about as frequently as it did pre-patch, it's just getting the sphere to hit to test that greatly skews what I'm seeing.

There IS something very strange I've seen though: Objects hit by Scatter the Weak have collision and damage properties. In a live ranked game yesterday Scatter kicked a Minion outside of its pulse waves, hit the enemy Annie, and did damage with the Minion. I was very confused watching the play back on that, as I only ever assumed Dark Spheres would have damage properties at all. Is that intended behavior? If not, I'm wondering if it might be related to Scatter not behaving right.

KeevalroyJan 23, 20152 votes

This isn't about Syndra I'm sorry, but could you or someone address some of the concerns in this thread at some point? http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Ry5pQ87E-zeds-manaless-infinite-zoning-poke-harass-and-ungankability-are-making-him-oppressive-midlane

AlorasenceJan 23, 20151 votes

Bless you. Be swift fixing. Thanks.

Edit: Hey Meddler....She's the lowest winrate champion in the game. Its been two weeks. Merely seeing her picked on the other team gives you a 60% chance of winning the game. Fix her.

The WhamboozlerJan 22, 20159 votes

Given that I HATED laning against Syndra.... I accept this change. She used to zone you for a month before stun-flash-ult deleting you if you dared to stay in lane at less than 60% HP.

May she never return to power.

46106965_DELJan 22, 20156 votes

The no cast time wasn't that bad, the thing was is she took actual skill to land her abilities. She's hard to escape with and with how strong assassins were at the time she was very difficult to escape with. Now I can't even play her, her damage is basically nothing and she can't stand up to mid champs who are super over played like Kat, Zed, LeBlanc, etc,.

WeredeerJan 22, 20156 votes

As someone who has played Syndra since her release, there might be some bias to what I say but regardless I'll give my input. There's no doubt Syndra's strength in lane was a bit oppressive however against the league of assassins even she has a hard time as she has no mobility. I believe the nerfs to her Q are justified, less killing potential in lane but returns to normal at level 9 which is better than just a straight nerf at all levels.

However...Riot's team really messed up somewhere when they messed with her E. I admit there have been times where I didn't think that stun hit them but it did. My complaint with the change to her E is that it's completely bugged right now. I had a game where my stun literally went through a Jarvan as he was performing his QE combo and nothing happened to him. Syndra went from being a completely viable champion to a subpar mage who retains her burst but not her only form of safety which lies in her stun. I can't even play my favorite champion anymore because her stun...it just doesn't work right now.

Overall, I can live with the Q changes. Sure I do less damage in lane and I'm still getting used to the reduced damage on minions (really messed up my cs the first few games I played with her) but her stun absolutely needs to be fixed.

5G8Nri0B54Jan 22, 20156 votes

I forgot the exact argument, but 2-3 years ago I think Morello or Xypherous explained how the closer a champion is to exact 50%, the more likely they were to be OP somehow. Something to do with how everyone wants to pick said OP champion...

So the measure of imbalance is always "way below 50", "exactly 50", or "way above 50".

The main issue is likely how long the range is, and more importantly, it's a hard CC that bypasses minions.

Had it been a simple snare instead it may not have come to this. Or if hitting subsequent minions reduced it's overall range or changes the stun to a slow after hitting the first minion.

Right now if she is UP, it's because of her glitch.

junglerboy16Jan 22, 20156 votes

that seems really out of whack. That may be true for a select few champions, but then you have picks like Lee sin, who is quite strong, but has low win rate because every n00b wants to play him, or champs like Master Yi, who ACTUALLY has a pretty static 50% win rate and isn't OP or UP at any given tier. Syndra had a slightly higher win rate the higher elo you looked at her, and now she has consistently low win rate because of the E bug.

Kuroi86Jan 22, 20155 votes

If the problem is a bug then buffs will fix nothing. A bug fix is what is needed.

manbearswineJan 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If the problem is a bug then buffs will fix nothing. A bug fix is what is needed.

Well the issue is that bug has well,plagued the game for quite a while,syndra isn't the only one affected by it(presumably all skillshots are),but it does seems to be way more common on her.

also note that this bug was very common on syndra even before these nerfs.

Kuroi86Jan 23, 20151 votes

Honestly I've not heard of it until recently. Has the bug gotten worse?

manbearswineJan 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I've not heard of it until recently. Has the bug gotten worse?

Possibly? I'm not sure,this bug was very common on syndra even before these changes and it's hard for me to tell if it has gotten more common,I used to get a couple of obvious examples per day both before and after the nerfs.

there are plenty of cases though,ezreal ults going through people doing nothing,zyra snares,ashe arrow,I'm pretty sure I even saw a thresh hook go straight through someone,I also think this bug has "reverse" occassions,when a skillshot which clearly missed hits anyway,had a sivir q which completely missed(yes even with the rather large hitbox it had) hit me a few days ago.

Nox FleuretJan 22, 20155 votes

[deleted]

Pi Guy JrJan 22, 20157 votes

Karthus Both his and Syndra are completely dodge-able and have a wind-up time on the ground allowing the enemy to make an adjustment. Have you tried playing her? The hitbox literally feels like 1 pixel right now.

SammystormJan 22, 20153 votes

Karthus doesn't have aoe hard cc, has to be in malee range to do most of his damage and has to scale to late game. Syndra was a lane bully that had a huge sphere of influence once she was remotely close to 6. She aslo had the ability to burst down any one target then stun a couple of others. Also karthus does hardly any damage early with q's unless he hits you alone. Syndra deals a lot of damage no matter where you stand. Also if you miss q on syndra you can follow up with a stun. I mean really comparing a mid game champ with a very strong laning phase against a late game champ with a very weak early game is silly.

SmokingPuffinJan 22, 20155 votes

Hit box may be okay. There are clear instances where the stun effect does damage, but does not stun. Possibly related to the CC chain "fix" that broke a few other things too.

Would suggest not playing Syndra until next patch. Withhold judgement of nerf effects until the kit actually works again.

Penguin EclipseJan 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Hit box may be okay. There are clear instances where the stun effect does damage, but does not stun. Possibly related to the CC chain "fix" that broke a few other things too.

Would suggest not playing Syndra until next patch. Withhold judgement of nerf effects until the kit actually works again.

There haven't been any changes to her on PBE. I highly doubt she will see changes for next patch.

SmokingPuffinJan 22, 20155 votes

I'm not expecting Syndra changes. I'm expecting CC bug fixes. You can see a similar thing going on where Riven isn't properly CCing herself either right now, and they're aware of the issue.

NarasimhaJan 22, 20155 votes

They just need to fix the bugs on her E. That should clear up most of the issues.

SammystormJan 22, 20154 votes

50% with how high her pick rate was is pretty massive. She was a oppressive lane bully. Her stun was too forgiving it is better for a potential aoe cc spell to actually be difficult to land instead of just q and e and stun them for free dmgs.

AlphariteJan 22, 20154 votes

She never needed a nerf. People complained about her being a lane bully, which was kind of the purpose of the champion. Also, the mana regen nerfs hit her and every other mage hard, and DFG removal is also going to suck for her. At least wait until after removing DFG if you really want to gut her that badly.

Solidair3Jan 22, 20153 votes

All changes to her have been justified. I'm confident that she will be balanced when her E is fixed. Currently, whenever the ball passes through enemies it might not even stun them.

This is actually a very old bug, but had been made much MUCH worse by the changes to how her E hits enemies. When this bug fix goes out, she'll be fine. But I will agree she's unplayable right now.

CindikleJan 22, 20153 votes

The Q nerf was not needed. The stun I can understand. But it also needs fixed.

If they really wanted to do something about Q. Reduce it's radius. Then bring it back at rank 5.

Say reduce it 20% of what it is now. Then her passive gives 25% at rank 5. This would directly effect her lanning without hurting her late game. This difference will be made up by those skilled enough to handle the nerf.

If they want to do something about her ult. Give it a max chase range. Flashing too far away from where Syndra cast it will break the spell. This will give it counterplay. Although it also gives more power to mobility. Which is why I wouldn't really like to see it.

SaevumJan 22, 20152 votes

So... they overnerfed the hitbox?

Back in the day of the thread, i posted my concerns about that specific nerf, and hek, i was right to be concerned.

Fusion322Jan 22, 20152 votes

i think all they needed to do we fix the hitboxes on e, her q was fine.

AndrewXA9Jan 23, 20152 votes

I hate that people are complaining about the damage nerfs because it's distracting from the fact that her stun is straight bugged. I'm okay with the nerfs, but she is unplayable right now because the stun is BUGGED. We need to bring that to Riot's attention and *THEN *you can decide if the nerfs were that bad.

RynthJan 23, 20152 votes

Well, that's not a biased poll at all. The stun is slightly smaller than it should be, but still functions. The main reason that her win rate dropped so much is that people are still trying to aim the stun at where enemies are standing, which used to work, rather than predicting enemy movement and leading the shot. I just played a few games with her on moderately high ping, and almost all of the stuns that I missed still felt like my fault rather than a bug - the champion was still extremely strong.

MrSlowDieJan 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Beacuse Missing all skillshots and then pressing R which give you kill reqire so much skill. Right now Syndra reqire some skill, not before this patch. I didn't play her very often, but if I can pick a champion I don't know, miss all skillshots and still kill enemy (lane phase) with just R and Ignite then I am pretty sure something is wrong. Not to mention that hiting her skillshots is not that hard - I am just bad at this. One of easiest champ to play with for me. There is only one danger for her - enemy jungler, but place 1 ward, don't waste your E only to harras and you are guarantee to escape most ganks and when you get fed you can insta kill anyone from enemy team and stun others. But please buff her back to previous state, I will always welcome one of those free LP champions in my set.

have you read the patch note? there's no nerf to her R. only Q and E, if you say she could miss ALL skillshot and still kill enemy with R and ignite, she can do that after the nerf too. Well, only if what you say is true.

but what? her Q and E nerf (+bug) are enough to rape her WR. ALL over the division.

AGarnerJan 23, 20151 votes

If we're talking about win rates then lets look at win rates. Exhibit A) Azir is considered insanely OP to the community he has the second lowest win-rate in the game. Zilean is a pain to deal with and is really strong late game, Zilean has the lowest win rate in all of league. Does this mean we should buff Azir and Zilean so they can get a higher win-rate? No, because then Azir would become %100 pick/ban in the LCS and Zilean would be the most toxic trash in the game. Syndra is sitting at %45 win-rate which is a balanced win-rate it's very steady. And then you have maokai who's about to hit %60 win-rate and no ones talking about it.

d3r3kJan 23, 20151 votes

I think this nerf was fine- she was REALLY abusive level 1 with the ability to cast Q on the move and do lots of damage with a low cooldown. The ONLY thing this affects is her level 1 bully in lane. Once you hit level 4 roughly, this whole nerf seems to go away. And now it takes skill to land your stuns so now every joe schmoe can play her really well.

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d3r3kJan 23, 20151 votes

And by the way, I main syndra. So I am not being biased against her. She was stupid (and still is) easy to play.

Nausicäa Jan 23, 20151 votes

Thanks for the responses Meddler, i hope its fixed in 5.2