Ok, riot, this is kind of bad. His q lasts for 1.5 seconds. He spawns 3 boxes when clone dies... this is kinda pathetic. I was thinking if you can buff his q time and increase the crit damage a little he would be much better, because honestly I don't mind the ult box thing and the new passive, his q is what makes me mad.
Astôlfo4 votesHis new Q is complete trash. But hey, looks like the crappy players that cry and whine about Shaco having no counterplay/taking no skill/being unhealthy/being toxic get to be the ones who decide how Shaco gets changed. LUL
deadfish181 votesLul
Nahui1 votesBecause a stealth flash with a great duration is so balanced, right?
Astôlfo3 votesIt was perfectly balanced because you could pink ward as well as regular ward deeper in. Instead, Riot makes Shaco's Q stealth invisible to pinks for no good reason and completely fucking gut and ruin both the stealth and damage on it.
ff4sk2 votesHis stealth was fine the way it was, if it were as broken as you're implying shaco would be perma banned across all elos, not be one of weakest junglers in the game being only played by dedicated mains.
When was the last time you saw people calling shaco strong, broken, or viable? when was the last time anyone mentioned shaco before this rework?
Shaco was fine and was only ruined for the sake of change and pandering to shit players.
Nahui1 votesBalanced is the wrong word to use, my bad. Broken is the correct term.
Something broken doesn't necessarily mean it's unbalanced. The rest of his kit is weak enough to drag down the insane power his Q has. But, his power is too heavily front loaded into Q. It's a broken spell because it simply does too much too easily.
People have been mentioning Shaco since forever. Not because his E chunked them. Not because they got feared by a Box. Not because the clone took all their CDs or nuked them or DPS'd them down. The conversation was always on his Q.
A stealth flash on a normalized CD with a guaranteed crit afterwards is simply overload. The crit not really. It's mainly the stealth flash with extensive stealth duration. Pinks don't simply counter it. Scanners don't simply counter it. He can Q in any direction and there is no way to know how without pink wards surrounding all sides. One second is enough. He doesn't need a large stealth on a flash on a Q. One second or whatever it is now is perfectly enough to get to a target. Cutting it's damage? I highly question that. That was never the problem with it. The problem was always an instant stealth flash. And they dealt with it simply because enough people had a problem with it. It's not simply "Shit players". The point of these class reworks isn't to strengthen any class or anything. It's to fix iconic champions in that role so that their gameplay is both fun and rewarding with as much interaction as possible on both sides of the match.
Shaco was only played low ELO for a reason. He's a pubstomp. His Q is a toxic ability that only works super well due to ignorance. You couldn't buff him because low ELO would be destroyed, you couldn't nerf him because he was shit higher ELO. His problem isn't a numbers thing. It was a kit design. They couldn't allocate power to P, W,E,R because Q was just so damn good. You couldn't nerf Q simply and buff others because Shaco sympathizers will come out and cry it's unfair and that people should simply "Git gud". He needed a rework, and that's what we're getting. If you're hoping to play post rework champs the same way as pre-rework champs, you're delusional. All reworked champions play differently than prerework. So, it's fitting that they're trying to make Shaco less of a split push and Q, try one shot a squishy, split push champion and have more about him than, what really is, cheesy gameplay.
In case you hadn't actually seen the numbers for the rework, or have a general idea of what they are, here's how it is.
Passive Old: 20% extra damage from hitting enemies behind/side.
Passive New: Guaranteed crit on a 2 second CD if striking from behind, is lowered by CDR.
Q old: Stealth flash, lasted a few seconds, next hit was a crit.
Q New: Stealth flash, lasts significant less AT EARLY RANKS. In fact, at rank 5, Shaco's stealth actually lasts longer than now. Shocking, it's like knowing about reworks before trying to indoctrinate the public on boards is valuable :O! This is so early game he isn't a straight cheese champion. And late game, 4.5 seconds of stealth with NO pink wards. Oh nooooooooooooooooooooo, RIP Shaco Q.Q. Since he has a crit on passive, and there is 0 excuse to use Q and not hit them from behind, you still get that crit. PLUS, it additionally deals extra damage naturally in case you decide you want to play Shaco incorrectly, they still throw you a bone. Good for Riot. If you strike before Q ends, it's CD is reduced. You can also place boxes while stealthed, briefly revealing you because balance is nice in a game.
Old W: Stealth box, feared enemies that get near it, attacks them until expires or killed.
New W: Scaling health box, compensated with inability to stack on top of each other anymore. If you try and stack, it'll place it next to it about a Teemo away.
Old E: Passively slowed on autos, throw it for damage and slow and increased damage versus lower health targets. Lowered attack speed of jungle monsters.
New E: Base damage nerfed, deals much more % missing health. Now an execute. May look like a nerf because there's less opportunity to use it effectively (Brainlessly), but E was actually used mostly as an execute anyways. With the extra damage and power in Q, plus the longevity of boxes so further damage their, it makes sense they decided to shave some base damage off E.
Old R: Clone, shares your buffs, autos with you, explodes when dead for good damage and provides brief untargetability when cast.
New R: Same shit, they just added to it. Explodes and 3 boxes also come out. Game breaking? No. A buff? Definitely.
So, mathematically, Shaco was hard buffed. His clear speed got heavily buffed with the new passive. His Q is simply outright better at most stages of the game, as it will be the first spell maxed every time. It's less toxic early on where Shaco is known to cheese and win lanes easily. However, at rank 4-5 (Level 7-9), it's a powerhouse spell. Even before then it's still amazing. You get so much more damage and use out of Q now rather than being an almost guaranteed flash early game in any lane. His W is a straight buff. Well, it's a nerf to AP Shaco since you can't easily bush box cheese, but his acquirement of AP ratios on Q kinda makes up for it. Even then, AP Shaco isn't something Riot has in mind reworking him, since it is a heavy minority. Now, boxes are simply tankier and will get more hits on you as you try and clear them. His E might have been a nerf, depending on how you play him. You won't have the initial base damage when popping out of Q, but you'll have a great execute which is usually what Shaco uses to finish someone off regardless. Still, might be a slight nerf for those simplistically playing Shaco, but I doubt it will affect any mains or dedicated players. His R is a straight buff. There is no other stance on that. They took a spell, made it do one more thing than it already did, took nothing from it. Buff.
They're giving him tools to scale harder into late game and less ability to cheese lanes levels 1-6. If you think that's unreasonable, I mean go ahead and grind out Shaco in ranked for the next 3 days. If you honestly believe Shaco's current playstyle is healthy, I mean I guess it's irrelevant as it isn't up to debate. Riot is doing it. The one's defending Shaco seem to be the superminority so overall Riot seems on point with what they're doing with him. Screaming pink ward as a way to keep stealth classes from being balanced is a terrible ideology, which is why they're dealing with pinks appropriately. Stealth detection has always been the armor those mains used to justify stealth and keep balance teams from looking at them. Riot removes those, and suddenly, stealth champions are all up for a great balancing session. :)
ff4sk1 votesA stealth flash on a normalized CD
11 second CD on a 90 - 50 mana cost that stealthed him for 3.5 seconds. I'd agree and call it broken if it weren't his only viable ability for ganking or getting away from danger since he's made of paper and dies in seconds.
Shaco was only played low ELO for a reason. He's a pubstomp.
There are shaco mains or otp in higher elo.
His Q is a toxic ability that only works super well due to ignorance.
So you admit that it's only viable vs people too dumb to know how to counter it, good, we're getting somewhere.
You couldn't buff him because low ELO would be destroyed,
Nobody asked for a buff on shaco, just a few number alterations and necessary bug fixes like his clone's AI being shit. Instead we got undeserved nerfs.
you couldn't nerf him because he was shit higher ELO.
But they're nerfing him right now.
His problem isn't a numbers thing.
It is, shaco's scaling is shit leading to his late game being garbage, he can either sacrifice damage for sustain or build full glass cannon and do what he does best, assassinate and splitpush.
They couldn't allocate power to P, W,E,R because Q was just so damn good.
outside of ganking and getting away from things it's a pretty useless ability that's countered by a 75g item or a free trinket, hell even groping can render his ability useless as he can't use it to assassinate.
You couldn't nerf Q simply and buff others because Shaco sympathizers will come out and cry it's unfair and that people should simply "Git gud".
As a shaco main if they'd nerf'd our Q and gave us something back I wouldn't be bothered but the rework is nothing but a huge nerf.
He needed a rework, and that's what we're getting.
I'd hardly call this shitfest a rework but ok go on.
If you're hoping to play post rework champs the same way as pre-rework champs, you're delusional.
I'm not expecting to play him the same way, I'm expecting Riot to either deliver what they promised or leave shaco the alone since they clearly know nothing about the champion.
So, it's fitting that they're trying to make Shaco less of a split push and Q, try one shot a squishy, split push champion and have more about him than, what really is, cheesy gameplay.
Ok but the thing is, they gave him nothing back for the "cheesy gameplay" they took away, he's significantly weaker, they not only destroyed his early game but didn't do anything for his late game which they said they'd fix.
In case you hadn't actually seen the numbers for the rework, or have a general idea of what they are, here's how it is.
I've been checking pbe everyday but keep assuming.
Passive Old: 20% extra damage from hitting enemies behind/side.
Passive New: Guaranteed crit on a 2 second CD if striking from behind, is lowered by CDR.
3 second cooldown actually and even with 40% CDR that drops it to 1.8 second for his next attack from behind to deal extra damage which I highly doubt shaco can stay in a fight long enough to do that more than once.
Q old: Stealth flash, lasted a few seconds, next hit was a crit.
3.5 on 11 second CD costing him 90 mana at rank 1.
Q New: Stealth flash, lasts significant less AT EARLY RANKS.
Yes so killing his early ganks and forcing you to level it up first to have any relevance in the game.
In fact, at rank 5, Shaco's stealth actually lasts longer than now.
Longer stealth with no damage to back it up since all your damage has been half'd on all your abilities. See, if you have no damage to kill anyone your stealth is pretty much useless and will again only be used for getting away from people when they come chasing your ass when they see you splitpushing since that's all you're gonna be able to do now.
Shocking, it's like knowing about reworks before trying to indoctrinate the public on boards is valuable :O! This is so early game he isn't a straight cheese champion.
Ironic coming from someone who doesn't seem to know half of what he's talking about. Also your patronizing tone isn't helping your case one bit mate.
And late game, 4.5 seconds of stealth with NO pink wards. Oh nooooooooooooooooooooo, RIP Shaco Q.Q. Since he has a crit on passive, and there is 0 excuse to use Q and not hit them from behind, you still get that crit.
Ok so once you hit your weak (mini) crit then what? you're a sitting duck with no escape and no damage to back up your engage since your damage was gutted on all your abilities, so now the squishy adc can kite and kill you with 3 autos, good job retard.
PLUS, it additionally deals extra damage naturally in case you decide you want to play Shaco incorrectly, they still throw you a bone. Good for Riot. If you strike before Q ends, it's CD is reduced.
3 second on hit cdr, so we're back to square one with 11 cd just like our old Q, wow, what a buff, thanks Riot.
You can also place boxes while stealthed, briefly revealing you because balance is nice in a game.
Boxes still take a second before going into stealth so not only will they see you but they'll also see and be able to kill both you and your box. So not only is this ability stupid but it's also useless since there's no scenario where you'd want to drop a box mid stealth.
Old W: Stealth box, feared enemies that get near it, attacks them until expires or killed.
New W: Scaling health box, compensated with inability to stack on top of each other anymore. If you try and stack, it'll place it next to it about a Teemo away.
So now due to shaco starting with only a bit of health these boxes will be significantly weaker and the ability to not stack them combined with the fact they no longer deal 20% damage when attacking from behind slows down your clear speed and forces you to tank more damage just to clear your jungle, I'll give you this one since it might be better for late game.
Old E: Passively slowed on autos, throw it for damage and slow and increased damage versus lower health targets. Lowered attack speed of jungle monsters.
New E: Base damage nerfed, deals much more % missing health. Now an execute. May look like a nerf because there's less opportunity to use it effectively (Brainlessly), but E was actually used mostly as an execute anyways. With the extra damage and power in Q, plus the longevity of boxes so further damage their, it makes sense they decided to shave some base damage off E.
So they took away his execute, gave him 5AD rank one and not only made AD shaco's damage significantly weaker but completely gutted AP shaco since this was his core ability, good job Riot. Also the missing health is useless since it's a % of their already missing health, shaco is only able to target squishies, who have little to no health, so this ability will deal significantly less damage considering the fact that even if they had 1k missing health it will only be dealing 80 damage to them, do the math next time before spouting idiocy please.
Old R: Clone, shares your buffs, autos with you, explodes when dead for good damage and provides brief untargetability when cast.
New R: Same shit, they just added to it. Explodes and 3 boxes also come out. Game breaking? No. A buff? Definitely.
Yes, 3 MINI boxes with fast decaying SHARED hp, no damage, and a dely on their activate is certainly a buff, definitely not a useless gimmick nobody asked for.
So, mathematically, Shaco was hard buffed.
Except he wasn't, if you'd done the math like I did you'd know that nothing about his rework was a buff, even the dumb gimmicks added were an excuse to shave off more and more of whatever damage shaco had.
His clear speed got heavily buffed with the new passive.
nerf'd due to the removal of his slow on his E, his passive's 20% interaction with his boxes, his box stacking, and the health on said boxes
His Q is simply outright better at most stages of the game, as it will be the first spell maxed every time
His Q is useless if he has no damage to follow up with it.
His W is a straight buff. Well, it's a nerf to AP Shaco since you can't easily bush box cheese, but his acquirement of AP ratios on Q kinda makes up for it.
AP shaco doesn't use Q to engage on an enemy, he uses it to get away when he pokes them with his E, if you'd ever played shaco you'd know this.
Even then, AP Shaco isn't something Riot has in mind reworking him, since it is a heavy minority.
Riot's design team specifically said they looked at Pinkward's videos for ideas for the rework.
His E might have been a nerf, depending on how you play him.
It's a nerf across the board, nobody benefits from this.
His R is a straight buff. There is no other stance on that. They took a spell, made it do one more thing than it already did, took nothing from it. Buff.
again, dumb useless gimmick nobody wanted.
They're giving him tools to scale harder into late game and less ability to cheese lanes levels 1-6.
Except they nerf'd the scaling on all his abilities, he's now even more item reliant than before.
If you think that's unreasonable, I mean go ahead and grind out Shaco in ranked for the next 3 days. If you honestly believe Shaco's current playstyle is healthy, I mean I guess it's irrelevant as it isn't up to debate.
51% winrate, 5% playerate, 1.9% banrate. I'd say he's pretty healthy considering he's only doing well cause of his dedicated mains who have an average of 154.78 games on him.
Riot is doing it. The one's defending Shaco seem to be the superminority so overall Riot seems on point with what they're doing with him.
That minority is his playerbase/mains who know more about him than you or any of the design teams looking up pinkward videos for ideas know about him.
ff4sk1 votesI just want to know what part of the rework is supposed to make his late game healthy and his early balanced? Cause that's what riot promised us with this "rework" but honestly it just looks like either the design team knows jack shit about shaco or they're intentionally gutting him for no reason