Riven's Passive Stacks in Secondary Resource Bar

X Hyper Duck X·Apr 25, 2018·45 votes·14,432 views

Shouldn't riven's Passive Stacks be put into her Secondary bar ? Similar to Rengar's fury and Yasuo's passive Stacks. I see no reason why not to

37 Comments

flibitydooApr 25, 201819 votes

Riot actually talked about this a long time ago

The issue is the point of a resource bar is something your opponent can read and think "oh hey that bar is full, let's be careful". Tryndamere and renekton are good examples of this, you see they have a lot of fury built up, your first instinct is "be careful they're stronger now". Same with Rumble and his heat gage. Same with mordekaiser and his shield bar.

The issue with Riven was and still is, is that riven's passive stacks go up and down super fast so a player sees riven with an empty bar and thinks "she's weaker now, her bars not full", when in reality she can easily chain her Q/W/E to instantly fill her bar and get into the "is stronger now". Which works against clarity since the empty bar SHOULD suggest she's easier to fight.

TotalJerkApr 25, 20184 votes

But by the same logic why does Ryze have his runes displayed below his health bar?

5000000000000000Apr 26, 20181 votes

E has a 2 second-ish cooldown, and jumping on him without any stacks vs jumping on him at full stacks has very clearly different consequences, in that when it's full, Ryze can instantly get his shield/haste.

DanjengApr 26, 20185 votes

What? Enemies can see my rune stacks? Well I learned something new.

Ryze can just get the shield/MS in a split second anyway though with EW/WE.

5000000000000000Apr 26, 20181 votes

Yeah, I guess the really relevant difference is between 0 stack and 1 stack

ZedexApr 27, 20181 votes

You make a good point.

Snowman ArcApr 26, 20181 votes

Just like Aatrox with his R rofl.

Chembaron YamadaApr 25, 201810 votes

I like the idea, since it would give the enemy more clarity about her passive, understanding what exactly is going on and why Riven tends to be so bursty sometimes.

On the other hand, it could be hard to implement well, since this system is charging and recharging so fast. So they would have to find a way to represent it visually while not making it fluctuating so much visually to even increase confusion.

EDIT: I misunderstood Rivens passive, the idea to make her charges her resource bar is great for clarity and I totally support it.

JaspersApr 25, 20181 votes

Agreed, better clarity is always good. It would allow lane opponent more opportunity to engage or withdraw instead of trying to work out what she's done in the bush she's been hiding in for 30 seconds. :P

But isn't Rumble's passive pretty similar to Riven's in a way? As Rumble you have to constantly maintain your Heat, not only to deal more damage to to also make sure you are below 100 and not to silence yourself, he loses 10 per second when not doing things. He has clarity one when he is silenced, when he's dealing more damage etc. Renekton too, you know you have better chance of fighting him if he's not got much Fury stacked.

Chembaron YamadaApr 25, 20185 votes

Actually, I read her passive again, there was a misunderstanding.

I thought that she would consume all her stacks with the next AA for the bonus damage, meaning that her bar would deplete again extremely fast, which would be hard to read if it fluctuates that fast.

However, she just consumes a single charge per AA, therefore there is nothing speaking against that change. It would help people understand what's going on.

AyzevApr 25, 20187 votes

I feel like that's rarely going to do anything, since she usually autos in-between every ability, consuming the charges as fast as they are generated (or she doesn't and they just go away on their own soon enough). And once she's put everything on cooldown, you're either dead or about to be if you don't get away immediately, or she's retreating herself to wait out the cooldowns. Seeing the amount of charges she has is hardly ever going to change anything about whether or not you want to fight her or how you want to do it. Overall, I'm neither for nor against this.

WimbledofyApr 25, 20184 votes

I feel the opposite. I see no reason to implement this. Riven basically gains and loses stacks instantly. All having a bar would do is show riven does more damage on her next auto, but if you see her use an ability then it's obvious. Riven can use her q 3 times and then has 3 other abilities, so it's safe to assume she always will have at least 1 passive stack (unless she's building full attack speed which doesn't happen).

webstar1108Apr 25, 20183 votes

She's is hard enough

Chembaron YamadaApr 25, 201825 votes

How has that something to do with her difficulty?

webstar1108Apr 25, 20183 votes

You literally just said, "since it would give the enemy more clarity about her passive" which makes it harder for Riven. It's like when they main it easier to see Annie's stun up. All of a sudden less people were being bad and walking up when she had stun. Same with Riven. If you do not know what Riven does that is your fault. Do not make it easy for the lane opponent to see when to fight her.

Chembaron YamadaApr 25, 201820 votes

Riot has shown often enough that they want the enemy to understand what's going on, tho. The change to Annies passive, showing the enemy when Jhins 4th shot is up, or the most recent example, showing the enemy how many shards Swain has collected for his ultimate.

If this turns out to hit Riven balancingwise, they can just buff her to compensate.

Heckin SupportApr 25, 20186 votes

{quoted}

Riot has shown often enough that they want the enemy to understand what's going on, tho. The change to Annies passive, showing the enemy when Jhins 4th shot is up, or the most recent example, showing the enemy how many shards Swain has collected for his ultimate.

If this turns out to hit Riven balancingwise, they can just buff her to compensate.

No champion should have a strength based on the enemy not knowing what the hell is going on. Clarity > Power. If not being able to tell when her passive is up is really going to affect her (which I doubt it would) that just shows she would need little love taps in other areas of her kit.

HäxelApr 25, 20181 votes

i also pointed out (but didn't get much attention) that annie and jhin have this on their third resource bar cause they use normal mana too. And a third resource bar could also be made for yasuo q adn how many stacks he has up on him. Yes you can see him having 2 stacks visualy but you also see 4 stacks on annie visualy and this didn't prevent riot from adding the resource bar. Cause on annie stacks 1-3 or ony asuo the first stack was/is not visible unless you click on an enemy. And yasuo q has a realy short cd, knowing if he got already a stack threw minions or a scuttle in the river for exampel already or if he starts a fight with 0 q stacks can make a huge diffrence.

Z3SleeperApr 25, 20188 votes

They’ve always been visible, just not clearly visible.

Elemental LuxApr 25, 20182 votes

This would be awesome, but you can usually assume she has max stacks always when she gets full CDR.

Modl Ryden lApr 25, 20182 votes

Riot was experimenting with that idea a while ago and ended up not pushing it Live since the stacks fell off as quickly as they could be stockpiled due to a lot of Riven mains using attack animation cancelling. So in the end it was an extraneous feature that didn't provide as much clarity as it was sought out to. They were also experimenting with a new mechanic called, Edge, that would determine the potency of her ultimate rather than it being a flat out execute when activated.

Just find Riven in the list and you'll see what me as well as others were talking about: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/09/930-pbe-update.html

Should you be more curious about this experiment, search for Boxbox Riven Edge Mechanic in Youtube or something, he was one of the players that have gameplay of it.

ZaghyrApr 26, 20182 votes

Because it would be pointless. You only put something on the resource bar because you have to consciously pay attention to it because it has an impact. Riven's passive is non-interactive and putting it on the resource bar would serve no purpose. For the player, knowing when you have a charge would not matter because all it does is increase damage. For the enemy, knowing when you have a charge would not matter because it doesn't do anything significant and is something that the enemy cannot stop. It does nothing that warrants attention from both players.

There are too ways this could be implemented, if it even was. The first is by putting the charges in her actual resource bar. This doesn't make any sense because it isn't a resource and it doesn't effect the rest of her abilities in any way. The second is to put it under the resource bar like you do with Annie, Corki, and Xayah. Unlike Riven, these champs have something that you have to actively look out for. Annie shows her progression to her stun which you DEFINITELY need to look out for and the player definitely needs to keep track of, Corki shows his progression on his ult and especially so the player knows when he's about to fire a Big One, and Xayah show's her feathers because the player has to keep track of them to manage them and her E properly.

For Riven there is no decision making with her passive, it just happens, and the only control you have over it is who you use it on, and trying to make sure you don't cast 4 abilities in a row. Their is no reason to make it more view able for the player and the enemy because it provides to benefit to either.

ModJango MageApr 25, 20181 votes

I thinnk it was on the PBE for a while, about 1-2 years ago, but they never ended up shipping them.

paisyApr 25, 20181 votes

That's not what he meant. He means when she gets her passive stacks, they'll show up on her resource bar.

ModJango MageApr 25, 20181 votes

Yea thats what im talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuq_de_3n10 Heres a video of it.

WimbledofyApr 25, 20181 votes

that's similar to what op is talking about, but that also has a slight change since that isn't how rivens passive currently works. Currently riven uses a charge every time she autos and she gains a charge when using an ability. In that video she did not lose any charges for autoing.

FutureCreatorApr 25, 20181 votes

Make it an ammo bar similar to Corki, Annie and Jhin, I say.

TempName74814Apr 25, 20181 votes

that'd be useful

My Waifu VanillaApr 25, 20181 votes

The stacks fluctuate too much and most of the time. The bar is just going to stay full or close to full. Every other secondary action bar is fill->dump almost making it mean more with what it does. For example a jhin 4th shot is more important than 1 stack of rivens passive. Annie having 3 stacks means you are still getting stunned on a flash all-in if she hits E first. etc. etc.

Honestly the only other champion that I could see that might WANT a secondary bar added is Taric for his Q. It still follows the philosophy of fill-dump and the amount matters both for the enemy and your team. "This man is at 4 stacks he is going to get the big heal". Granted in teamfights it is usually only ever going to get to 2 stacks and then taken back with Q, but it will mean more than Riven has 2 stacks.....and it stays at 2 stacks because she just auto attacks between abilities making a constantly "full" bar absolutely pointless.

TyroneWatermelonApr 26, 20181 votes

they tried it years ago and it was brought up as a suggestion for a hundred times. my answer is No because its virtually useless information, riven spams abilities 24/7 and gets that passive on demand whenever she wants to, basically its always there and keep track of it is literally useless after lv 6, unlike others because: Tryndamere not that you'd like to fight him anyway, but it gives you a good idea of how much crit/ potential healing he has Renekton you know when he has empowered abilities Gnar you know when he's about to transform Yasuo you know when he's about to get a big chunk of shield Rengar you know when he's gonna get that empowered ability

However with Riven, it will always fill and drain so quickly and has minimal impact that it doesn't even matter

Automated RivenApr 26, 20181 votes

There is no reason not to. I think in the end it would simply be useless screen clutter as it really doesnt give rivens opponents any meaningful information. Aside from an occasional new player who would now know that something is going on there. But for anyone who has a basic understanding of rivens kit, there is literally no information to be gained from it. Past level 6 and 20% cdr riven always has her passive up anyhow.

I frankly think it would more confusing for new players to watch a resource bar which would not act like any other and there is no really good way to understand why its acting that way. With every other set of resources in the game there is some way to understand what it does. (the other one thats kinda hard is renekton but after a few game it would be able to be figured out) but rivens would be hopping up and down constantly with no real rhyme or reason to someone who doesnt understand her kit. Especially since she is animation canceling so some spells it would look like she gains one passive stack while others she could gain up to 3. Also jumping to three passive stacks would look super dangerous when in reality its pretty basic. This would cause newer players especially to provide extra respect where none is realistically due because they saw her resource bar jump.

All things considered I dont care either way. I personally feel with riven specifically the bar would be more harmful to those its supposed to help, and not useful at all to everyone else.

VoraciousXApr 26, 20181 votes

Riven's passive charges change so often it'd be hard for it to be really helpful. They did have some Riven changes where she had a secondary resource bar but it was scrapped because the changes were too much of a buff for Riven.

AnnoxisApr 26, 20181 votes

The changes were as following :

Riven gains 20 of a new ressource, Edge, when she an passive-enhanced autoattack. Edge was buffing her AD, and capped at 100.
Its passive could only have one charge up at a time.
Its ultimate damage was the same, but scaled with the amount of Edge she has instead of the missing HP of her opponent.

Not exactly a buff, more of a sidegrade.

VoraciousXApr 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The changes were as following :

Riven gains 20 of a new ressource, Edge, when she an passive-enhanced autoattack. Edge was buffing her AD, and capped at 100.

Its passive could only have one charge up at a time.

Its ultimate damage was the same, but scaled with the amount of Edge she has instead of the missing HP of her opponent.

Not exactly a buff, more of a sidegrade.

BoxBox said it was a huge buff. He said he welcomed Riven buffs but that was not the way to buff her, probably one of the reasons why they didn't ship the changes.

As for her getting a resource bar on her passive, I don't think it'd give any kind of clarity tbh. The damage will be added regardless if you can see it or not. It's not like you can make her waste it without CC, in which you'd want to do before she engaged anyways, because she'd dump all of her passive on you at once. Aside from looking cool, I don't see a need for a resource bar for Riven. What would happen is she's gain one stack, lose one stack, gain one stack, lose one stack, until she had 0 again. Unless she missed a cancel.

inFamous ZionApr 26, 20181 votes

Riven doesn't stack up like Annie,Rengar,Yasuo... After using an ability Rivens AA deals little more damage, but that's it. Rengar needs a visual because he can stun you with max stacks, Annie can stun you with max stacks and Yasuo can knock up with it.

It doesn't help you or hurts Riven, so it's pointless. You know Rivens passive is up after using an ability but why would you need an indicator like that? It's literally gonna show every 3s that her AA deals more damage.