Does Yasuo need to be nerfed?

Lóki··4 votes·1,268 views

While I know that a lot of people think that he is too strong, that he has too much damage output late game for how strong a lane bully he is, I really don't believe he needs another nerf. As a Yasuo main, I also know of his many weaknesses, and the nerfs they have already done to him. Any kind of targeted cc late game on him, and he gets blown up, he almost requires a knockup on his team to utilize his ultimate in late game teamfights, many other mid laners can simply burst him and/or beat him in lane (aka akali, fizz, syndra, etc.) let alone a lot of bruisers can out duel him. No, I don't like how he is constantly banned now, but any more nerfs to him and I'm not sure if he would be the samurai I know and love. With the only team abilites he has in his kit being his wind wall and an ultimate that requires a knockup, if he doesn't have the damage he is next to useless. They already nerfed his shield, his dash stacks, and his ultimate range. Isn't that enough for now?

20 Comments

Oleandervine3 votes

If his passive was changed to remove the doubled Critical Strike chance, he would most likely balance out somewhat. But until then, when he can build Infinity Edge and something like Phantom Dancer or Statikk Shiv to receive 95% - 100% critical strike, even when using his Q, he will continue to be overused, overpowered, and constantly banned.

Nuclear Corvid1 votes

Yeah, pretty much.

Doubled crit chance for a paltry 10% crit damage reduction is absurd. Couple that in with the lack of targeted CC in general (what you say screws Yasuo up) and join that with the potentially overpowering nature of Wind Wall and his ability to dash to everyone, and you're looking at a champ who will only rarely see the light of day.

Too strong. Needs nerfs to the passive.

12tales3 votes

He would be one of the worst champions in the game if that happened. A melee ADC with no steroid? Why would you every pick him over Fiora, Yi or Tryndamere?

Yasuo's fine as is. I wouldn't complain if Wind Wall got nudged a bit, but there are far more pressing balance concerns.

Worgslarg1 votes

If you change his passive from a massive autoattack steroid to only his near-worthless flow, you would need to massively buff his ult and q, to keep his power level anywhere near a good level.

Cloud Potato3 votes

I have 3 problems with Yasuo, none of which are his passive (the only thing I don't like is that you can't get 100% Crit without wasting some Crit):

1: Shiv synergises way too well with him. Q is balanced around the fact that it needs both AD and AS to scale. Buying AS first removes the counterplay of the skill, which is something that's actually good overall due to melee champions gaining more counterplay as champions group up, as well as it being one of the main sources of his damage and the only way to activate his ult on his own. However an AS rush means that the skill hits like a wet noodle. On the other hand, buying AD first means that each Q hits hard, and requires less time spent near the enemy to deliver that damage. The ability is easy to dodge in this state.

This is a good balance between stats that is absolutely destroyed by Statikk Shiv. This gives the AS to reduce the skill's counterplay while the passive makes up for the lower damage quite considerably. Blade of the Ruined King also synergises very well but at least has its power reduced early on; Shiv scales with Crit, which Yasuo gets double, and movement, which Yasuo has tons of. I don't know how exactly this synergy could get nerfed, but it increases Yasuo's early game power and removes the interesting relationship AD and AS have on Q's scaling.

2: Yasuo is too slippery. I know that complaining that a squishy melee is too hard to kill is pretty silly, but he is incredibly unfun to play against as a skillshot reliant champion. Wind Wall, the flow shield, and E's dashing all have counterplay available, but all 3 of them together makes a frustrating experience. Yasuo has so much protection that actually hitting through to him is too difficult. I actually like Wind Wall (sort of, more on that later) as it is one of the few mechanics that hits ranged harder than melee (when most of the time its the opposite). E's dashing is really annoying as it punishes skill shots but not targeted damage, when skillshots already have plenty of counterplay available. I know that melee champions can't exactly dodge when they're in someone's face, but thanks to Q and W Yasuo already has an advantage over most melee champions. The Flow shield is supposed to help against basic attack damage. From Mages. When Yasuo can easily trade with them. Hate it.

I would like to see either the Flow shield be removed entirely or only apply to physical damage, or alternatively E's dash having a longer cooldown when used against minions. The Flow shield is just excess power Yasuo doesn't need, and the mobility reduction helps land skillshots more easily without making targeted damage more effective.

3: Wind Wall. Some consider it the unholy grail, but I think it's a great, unique ability that sets Yasuo apart from his peers. Its scaling is all wrong though. 26 seconds is too long for a level 1 cooldown. Just way too long. For a defining part of his kit, it shouldn't be this long. On the other hand, its duration is 3.75 seconds at all ranks. Why? The long duration is at its most painful early game. Reverse this; the cooldown should be 16 seconds at all ranks (what level 5 is right now) and the duration should be something like 1.5 / 2 / 2.5 / 3 / 3.5. Also keep the width the same across all levels. You're not gonna try and walk around it in lane; the lower duration makes it easier enough to deal with anyways.

I think that tackling these 3 things will bring him to a better spot. If he needs buffs afterward, sure, go ahead. I think that these are problems that will persist as long as he's played, and that despite all this Yasuo is still healthier than any other melee carry we have. We can do better though.

Worgslarg1 votes

I really agree about wind wall. His high mobility seems a part of his identity and removing it would delete the current feel of yasuo imo.

His passive seems to be the biggest offender, more from the problems with crit chance than its actual scaling.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

but yasuo does not have a high mobility as an overall mobility but an insane gapclosing

this is something that should be mentioned

Cloud Potato2 votes

Well if the Crit is giving him too much power the damage can just be taken out of Q, which is pretty much already the case. By doubling his Crit it encourages getting pure damage items as opposed to the cost efficiency most melee damage dealers use, and reduce the RNG power he gets from Crit. So overall I think it's a fine part of his kit. It could have some power shifts though, like put on another ability or scale with level.

MrBuffington2 votes

I'm just speculating here:

I don't think they're trying to outright nerf Yasuo; I think they're trying to introduce more counterplay into his kit, which, imo, might be directed at how his ult is activated. Given that they're also trying to add counterplay to champions like Akali, Talon, and Fiora, my guess is that they're working on their 'targeted' dashes (since that's at least one common element between these champions), ie. Akali's ult (or I think they might nerf the resistances her Shroud gives her), Talon's E (the silence makes it hard to respond against Talon), Fiora's ult (it makes her untargetable while she just deals damage to everyone; I think her other dash is okay), and might give them some compensatory buffs.

Right now Yasuo's ult is necessarily a wombo combo, since the target needs to be hit by some displacement CC before you can use it. Given that there are a lot of ways to activate this ult, it isn't as hard as it used to be to activate it. Furthermore, there is no need to even be looking at the person you'll eventually attack; you just need to press R when the indicator comes up, and you automatically dash to their location, become untargetable (unless I'm mistaken), and also CC your target(s).

What I think could be an interesting change would be to have some sort of mark you need to activate first. I'm undecided on whether this mark should be visible to both teams; if it's just your own, it could be a valuable mechanism for planning attacks, but I think both teams need to see this so that you can actually be wary of the CC and play to avoid getting displaced. How I see this working is you mark a visible target with R, and if that target gets displaced, you can activate R again to ult to them. The mark can last for like, 10 seconds or something, allowing you to plan a strategy, but also requiring you to be more engaged in the fight, rather than just ulting whenever you see a mark. The mark also gives you some breathing room (heh) if you don't have Faker reflexes and can just target a CC'd person right immediately. If a person get's CC'd that you didn't mark, you can just double-tap R on them to cast on them; again, gives you some lee-way, but requires you to actively be aware of what's going on in the fight.

12tales2 votes

I don't think they're trying to outright nerf Yasuo; I think they're trying to introduce more counterplay into his kit, which, imo, might be directed at how his ult is activated. Given that they're also trying to add counterplay to champions like Akali, Talon, and Fiora, my guess is that they're working on their 'targeted' dashes (since that's at least one common element between these champions), ie. Akali's ult (or I think they might nerf the resistances her Shroud gives her), Talon's E (the silence makes it hard to respond against Talon), Fiora's ult (it makes her untargetable while she just deals damage to everyone; I think her other dash is okay), and might give them some compensatory buffs.

I think Yasuo's ult has one of the most obvious forms of counterplay in the game - don't group up, don't get knocked up. Dodge skillshots, and kite people with short range point-and-click abilities. Getting a guaranteed Yasuo ult pretty much requires blowing summoners and/or ultimates, and even then there's room for outplay through trading summoners, positioning, and a few abilities (Intervention, Chronoshift and Black Shield, notably).

Yasuo's ult has the same counterplay as the Braum ult that sets it up.

As for the rest of his kit - his Q and W are skillshots, his only non-ultimate mobility has a fixed range that leaves him in a predictable position, and his main damage ability has a significant cast time, especially at early levels. He also lacks any sort of sustain and can't farm at long range. It's very clear what you're supposed to do against him, in my opinion.

MrBuffington1 votes

I don't have a problem with that part of Yasuo's ult; I agree as far as not grouping up, it's just that Yasuo's ult requires less active input from Yasuo than other champion's wombo combos. Like, If Braum was trying to chain CC with Wukong, for example, both champions need to actively be involved in the fight, Braum and Wukong need good positioning and timing; Yasuo just has to press R. It's not a really fair comparison, since either Wukong or Braum can initiate, where Yasuo needs to wait for the initial CC to activate, but I think the 'marking' change I proposed could help to target the correct champion, instead of just leaping to whatever champion your cursor was closest to or just any random champion, and again, he could have more room for compensatory buffs if it's too difficult to activate his ult (for example, the marked target takes bonus damage from the ult, or something).

Worgslarg1 votes

The mark seems ok as a concept, but yasuo has a very high skill cap as is, and the ability to combo with a sudden and unexpected shockwave or unstoppable force to decimate the enemy team is a large part of his playstyle and appeal.

MrBuffington1 votes

The mark doesn't really change anything about his ult; you just need to be aware of when your team is initiating; you can't just randomly spam R during a teamfight and hope you get an ult off. If a teammate initiates without you realizing, you can just double tap R on the enemy you want to ult. You can still automatically dash to a marked opponent even if you don't have your cursor on them; the mark is there to force you to be more active in the teamfight and your target selection, not just ult whoever gets CC'ed.

Worgslarg1 votes

Double tapping your mouse over someone takes ~1 second( almost the entire duration of most knockups), assuming you have amazing ping and reaction time, as most players do not.

MrBuffington1 votes

Doubletapping R? That takes about as much time as pressing R once (and most players already spam the key anyways to ult), and it's not the only way to activate your ult; it's just another mechanism to do so. Or you can make it a single keypress if the target is already airborne, you just have to hover over that target for you to actually ult.

Worgslarg1 votes

Short answer- yes and no.

His passive is problematic. I personally love his passive, but it is the best spot to adjust his power. His kit needs a rebalance of power, shifting more damage from his passive to his q and r, making more emphasis on good ultimates and tornadoes than simply autoattacks with the crit steroid.

Onegarion1 votes

I think his passive is much to strong. I don't think you need to gut his passive and remove the Crit part of it, but tone it back. DOn't make it double, but maybe a smaller number like 40% or something. Crits are hard to deal with and I thought he was an assassin and not an adc. When i think of ad assassins I think of champs like Talon and Zed who aren't focusing on crit as a core of their damage. THey have abilities that let them blow you up if you are out of position, but I feel like Yas just has to much initial damage. I mean being able to AA and then have an AA reset that also crits is kinda OP meaning you get 3 crits instantly and since just about every yas build IE its hitting for 250%. I mean thats just insane on any assassin.

Now I'm with you in saying that the power should be taken off of his passive and moved to his actual abilities. I think his Wind wall and Dash are completely ok in power right now albeit the wind wall is rather frustrating lol. I feel like the Q itself is only a "problem" because it crits, hits multiple people in a tight spot (which lets be honest this doesn't happen much), and is on a really short CD. I'm not sure of any other champ that can crit as much as him. I think this is where the core of Yas comes from and there is no counter play to this crit aside from a 10% reduction on 1 mastery which while you should get it its 10% of a 250% increase in most cases. I mean i'm not sure how much less counterplay there is to a main mechanic of yas.

ShadowParker1 votes

Personally, I'd say just do 1 of these.

  1. Give him mana(It would solve everything as well as his insane lane bullying/slipperiness)

  2. Take away his double critical strike passive. (honestly, you really don't need this many passives...)

12tales2 votes

CertainlyT on Yasuo being Manaless -

"I see this posted a lot. Mana is only one way to gate a champion.

In the case of Yasuo, the resource gate on spells is actually inverted. Yasuo is gated by the NEED to act. If the Yasuo player is not successfully casting Q and E, he's falling behind -- Q builds stacks toward his knockup. E builds his passive. Each of them also leaves Yasuo vulnerable. In lane, Q starts at a 0.42 second cast time and E alerts the enemy to his exact position in 0.6 seconds (the time of the dash). Using those momentary losses of control to your advantage as the opponent can help you land skillshots or reposition against him. In team fights, the need to build Q stacks requires Yasuo to find targets (like the Wraiths, minions, or enemy champions that move into his team's lines) before he can cast his more powerful Q3. The E requires him to move around in a fight to keep his passive working, making him less of a target chooser and more of a target taker.

He also has no inherent sustain, rare for a melee, and most of the time is short range, allowing him to be harassed. We could have given Yasuo mana, bumped his durability/regen up a ton, and given him long range waveclear tools, but instead we made him manaless, fragile, and short ranged. Personally, I think this was the right choice as health as a resource is something that the enemy actually has control over. Mana regen is mostly a function of itemization. It should be more satisfying to maintain proper range while harassing Yasuo out of lane than to build enough armor that Pantheon cannot kill you with spears before OOMing.

That's not to say that resourceless designs are not more stressful to fight against than mana driven designs. Mana-based champions can be tied by avoiding their damage. Resourceless champions must be defeated through offensive action. Creating the proper amount of stress is an important part of design and really hope that Yasuo has the vulnerabilities to make players feel like they can find opportunities to defeat him through skilled ability use, which in turn should make the added stress worthwhile."

Emphasis added.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

both yes and no

when it comes to his kit it is clearly overloaded, allowing for both lane bullying and insane late bame carrying

when you look at reliability then he does not need a nerf ult is situational, if you ult badly you will get melted q can be missed and is the only way that he can acces his ult by himself passive shield doesnt block so much w requires quite the reflex

the players we find in solo q are unable to simply use him to the fullest, ranked teams are probalby insta winning with him

rahter than nerf i think that his kit needs to be cutted a little to make it more reliable to the point where you can actualy know how powerfuill he is (good yasuo bad yasuo )

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