Meta defying strategies I use are immediately labeled trolling and are discarded by this community.

volume709·Oct 31, 2014·3 votes·1,107 views

I recently made a post on reddit detailing the various strategies I use that don't conform to the current meta. I went into detail with one strategy I use in particular (duo mid) my preferred strategy. As expected I was immediately downvoted by people who simply disagree with me despite the fact that I proved duo mid to be extremely effective. As opposed to posting on a public forum the responses I get in game are a whole other story! If I insist on picking a champion I am exceptional at and suggest I partner up with someone mid lane I am almost always labeled a troll and am reported if I proceed to follow through with my suggestion. Same thing with other strategies I enjoy e.g. Viktor support, TF Support, Ryze Support, Ryze top, etc....

I go more into detail on the strategy and the down right toxic reaction I receive from the community in the reddit thread. Thanks for the read folks! http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2kltzm/pick_order_is_irrelevant/

72 Comments

DaCushOct 31, 20143 votes

Well you are being a troll if you go through with going duo mid when your whole team tells you not to no matter what you think. As far as duo mid being viable, I won't disagree that it can work but it isn't the most efficient strategy and wouldn't beat a team of equal skill level using the current meta. There's a reason why everybody and the pros use the same meta as far as positions. That's because it's proven to be the most effective way to play the game. When the game first came out there was definitely people trying duo mid and all sorts of other options but eventually everybody was using the current meta cause that's just the best way to play the game and most optimal chance of winning.

volume709Oct 31, 20142 votes

My actions have no malicious intent, in fact my sole intention is to win the game. If my team wants to fall apart, rage at, and troll me for not conforming to the meta that is their problem. They are the ones contributing to the demise of the game, not me. In other words if my team decides to flame me and lose, they are the trolls. Just because someone disagrees with me it doesn't make me a troll. Same goes for supporting as an apc. Who is anyone to say if I go Viktor support I am a troll? I don't support every game but I am going to play the role, position, and champion I think we will have the best results with. Is it now against the rules to pick a specific champion within a specified position/role? No, it's not and never will be. Once again, I am not a troll nor am I breaking the summoners code just because you disagree with me.

FooDangOct 31, 20142 votes

From your link

" I strictly play mid champions and I very rarely play lanes other than mid. I always tell my team every champion select that I will most likely be going mid and if anyone else also wants to mid I will happily duo mid with them."

Sounds like you are "That guy" that refuses to play another role...no one likes "That guy"...

Edit:

I recently made a post on reddit detailing the various strategies I use that don't conform to the current meta. I went into detail with one strategy I use in particular (duo mid) my preferred strategy.

There's a reason why the current meta is the most effective...Your "duo mid strat" is not as effective and vs. competent players it would get shut down...

volume709Oct 31, 20141 votes

I am good at most mid champions, they fit my play style. Most APCs can fulfill any role. If you bothered to read the rest of my thread you will have seen that I pick my champions according to what my team needs the most. For some reason people think there absolutely cannot be more than one APC on a team or there absolutely has to be a support! Wrong, it isn't against the rules to play outside the meta.

FooDangOct 31, 20142 votes

I just think your "outside the Meta strat" is just a excuse to play an APC...Go ahead...leave your ADC bot lane to fend for themselves...I would eat them alive...I would TP from top lane just to eat them...That ADC has no chance...

GrimspeakeOct 31, 20142 votes

viktor support would be interesting, his death ray could be strongly used to force other teams laner into the minions or away from them

SeriphymNov 1, 20142 votes

I recently made a post on reddit

^ that is why you are being downvoted.

Many players here HATE reddit forums.

volume709Nov 1, 20142 votes

I have gotten a better response here than on reddit. Maybe I should just stick to the LoL forums. All I wanted was as many civil discussions as possible and I didn't get much from reddit.

FrikgeekOct 31, 20141 votes

You call a strategy "extremely effective" yet you're still silver 1 using it. If there was a strategy that was very good vs the current meta you'd probably be at least master tier using it.

volume709Oct 31, 20141 votes

This isn't hearthstone where virtually everyone plays at the same pace. I am positive this would work at higher levels. I played starcraft at a masters level and the amount of innovation in that game was endless. No reason duo mid wouldn't be extremely effective at higher levels.

RaptameiOct 31, 20141 votes

This isn't hearthstone where virtually everyone plays at the same pace. I am positive this would work at higher levels. I played starcraft at a masters level and the amount of innovation in that game was endless. No reason duo mid wouldn't be extremely effective at higher levels.

Irrelevant. When 4 people don't want you to do something, you don't do it. That's what the report reason "not communicating with team" is about.

volume709Oct 31, 20141 votes

Irrelevant.

Highly relevant, not including theorycrafting and making decks Hearthstones mechanics consist of simply putting cards on the board. Anyone can do it. Not everyone can manage a LoL champion to their maximum potential (me included). Yes, you heard it here first folks! Contrary to popular belief I am not the best LoL player in the world! LoL has more possibilities than starcraft due to the shear amount of champions and potential strats. I assure you there can and will be more innovation to the meta.

That's what the report reason "not communicating with team" is about.

Oh! I communicated with them just fine. They refused to consider a different point of view and assist me. In the end they are toxic trolls and I haven't done anything wrong. Thankfully I do get some teams that don't flame!

RaptameiOct 31, 20141 votes

Oh! I communicated with them just fine. They refused to consider a different point of view and assist me. In they end they are toxic trolls and I haven't done anything wrong. Thankfully I do get some teams that don't flame!

Yeah, getting people who refuse to consider your point of view sucks, doesn't it? Now imagine how your team feels when you insist on going duo mid. Do you refuse to consider the point of view of the adc who's now stuck 1v2 and isn't getting any farm, or the mid who now has to compete for farm and will be underlevelled compared to the enemy mid?

YES, YOU DO.

And let's be honest, the only reason is that you never bothered to learn any role but mid.

volume709Oct 31, 20141 votes

Now imagine how your team feels when you insist on going duo mid.

I understand that with innovation comes disagreement and disgruntlement but those with an open mind are often emotionally unaffected.

Do you refuse to consider the point of view of the adc who's now stuck 1v2 and isn't getting any farm

Of course I consider their point of view. Like I have said I pick according to what our team needs including the adc. The solo bot laner can pick an adc who won't be so easily denied farm. They can also pick someone who isn't an adc who would have an easier time farming!

or the mid who now has to compete for farm and will be underlevelled compared to the enemy mid?

You don't have to "compete" for farm no. You distribute the farm accordingly. There are many ways to do this. While one of you is harassing it is incredibly easy for the other to farm or while the opposing laner is forced out of lane because of the shear effectiveness of this strat one of the mid laners can recall while the other stays to farm.

And let's be honest, the only reason is that you never bothered to learn any role but mid.

If you check my stats you will see I have done well with other lanes and roles so clearly I am able to play them. When it comes down to it and I see my team will benefit more from a more popular method I will do so. I find playing a duo mid or an APC support is more effective.

RaptameiNov 1, 20141 votes

Now imagine how your team feels when you insist on going duo mid.

I understand that with innovation comes disagreement and disgruntlement but those with an open mind are often emotionally unaffected.

Irrelevant. You have point of view A, four other people have point of view B. Democracy wins.

Do you refuse to consider the point of view of the adc who's now stuck 1v2 and isn't getting any farm

Of course I consider their point of view. Like I have said I pick according to what our team needs including the adc. The solo bot laner can pick an adc who won't be so easily denied farm. They can also pick someone who isn't an adc who would have an easier time farming!

"Yo, pick Caitlyn or Urgot or you'll lose lane! If you don't like it, you have a closed mind and are against innovation!"

or the mid who now has to compete for farm and will be underlevelled compared to the enemy mid?

You don't have to "compete" for farm no. You distribute the farm accordingly. There are many ways to do this. While one of you is harassing it is incredibly easy for the other to farm or while the opposing laner is forced out of lane because of the shear effectiveness of this strat one of the mid laners can recall while the other stays to farm.

Or if neither of you is going bot, the adc will afk and report both of you, so your other mid will go support and rage at you all the way and you will have successfully stolen his role, which is the entire purpose of this.

volume709Nov 1, 20141 votes

Glad I didn't see this until now. This post shows how close minded you are and for some reason you don't like to see other players succeed by playing differently than you.

Close minded comments like

Irrelevant. You have point of view A, four other people have point of view B. Democracy wins.

after I have raised a valid point really make me lose hope for civil discussion on this forum. Luckily you are one of the few who responded with such toxicity and closed mindedness. Clearly you can't see past your single minded mentality I've finally realized it's pointless to have this discussion with you since you look at this game so one dimensionally. Literally nothing you can say will matter at this point since you will now be discredited.

RaptameiNov 2, 20142 votes

Glad I didn't see this until now. This post shows how close minded you are and for some reason you don't like to see other players succeed by playing differently than you.

Close minded comments like

Irrelevant. You have point of view A, four other people have point of view B. Democracy wins.

after I have raised a valid point really make me lose hope for civil discussion on this forum. Luckily you are one of the few who responded with such toxicity and closed mindedness. Clearly you can't see past your single minded mentality I've finally realized it's pointless to have this discussion with you since you look at this game so one dimensionally. Literally nothing you can say will matter at this point since you will now be discredited.

Not a single valid argument can be found in your post.

I would downvote this stupid thread, but it's already at -6.

volume709Nov 2, 20141 votes

By posting such a close minded comment you have basically discredited yourself in this entire thread. No point in discussing anything with someone who views the topic one dimensionally.

I would downvote this stupid thread, but it's already at -6.

I mean you're clearly toxic and it will be impossible to continue any discussion with you whatsoever considering how emotionally involved you are. People play differently and you can't get over that for some reason and it clouds your judgement to the point where you have to lash out at others and blatantly ignore every other viewpoint. It's simply pointless to continue to attempt a civil discussion with you because you are not civil.

FrikgeekOct 31, 20142 votes

Good for you, but that's irrelevant here. Firstly because there's no real proof of it and even if there were Stracraft is mostly played 1v1 and is still a very micro-intensive game. Innovative strategies are often supported by extreme mechanical skill, or just the element of surprise. This isn't as true in League because your strat will be spotted as soon as creeps spawn, before you're able to make some meaningful headway.

There's a very good reason why duo mid isn't effective at higher levels, and it's because midlane is short. Like, really short, and it doesn't even have side brushes. Additionally, most midlaners have the ability to oneshot creepwaves and just retreat under their tower once they have some mana regen.

Even if you didn't send your squishy adc solo bot and replaced him with a ranged bruiser like Elise or AD nidalee you still wouldn't be able to deny the enemy mid in a 1v2 as much as you would the enemy toplaner. And if your duo mid is replacing the jungler then that's just throwing the game. You need a jungler or you are going to lose at higher levels, simple as that. You won't be able to contest buffs or dragons and even if you exert a ton of pressure on midlane you're going to lose pressure in other lanes and most likely lose towers.

It works in low Elo because people overextend for cs and give up free kills, letting you snowball midlane and get towers to control early vision. It's not uncommon for high Elo games to have under 15 kills on both teams before one team starts getting choked out (when most of your towers are down and they're clearing every ward you place, making it impossible to leave your base if you don't want to get killed).

volume709Oct 31, 20141 votes

There's a very good reason why duo mid isn't effective at higher levels, and it's because midlane is short. Like, really short

I don't think the length of the lane effects the strategy, if anything it works in favor of the duo mid.

Additionally, most midlaners have the ability to oneshot creepwaves and just retreat under their tower once they have some mana regen.

Duo mid excels in the early to mid game before most mids have the mana regen let alone the ability clear waves in one shot.

Even if you didn't send your squishy adc solo bot and replaced him with a ranged bruiser like Elise or AD nidalee you still wouldn't be able to deny the enemy mid in a 1v2 as much as you would the enemy toplaner.

This is why i try to pick a champion with decent range so I can zone the enemy mid laner. This is highly dependent on which champions are picked and how the game plays out, most of your points are actually.

And if your duo mid is replacing the jungler then that's just throwing the game. You need a jungler or you are going to lose at higher levels, simple as that. You won't be able to contest buffs or dragons

I've said I usually like to have a jungler but you can easily take smite mid lane or any other lane. I used to do this when Heimer was popular. Not sure about now but you used to be able to smite his turrets. Extremely effective in lane and it was unbeatable when battling for buffs or dragon with a jungler. Without a jungler I am sure it would have been effective.

and even if you exert a ton of pressure on midlane you're going to lose pressure in other lanes and most likely lose towers.

As I have said before at the first sign of other lanes struggling to hold I will gank and constantly be on the look out for any opportunities to assist them.

It works in low Elo because people overextend for cs and give up free kills, letting you snowball midlane and get towers to control early vision. It's not uncommon for high Elo games to have under 15 kills on both teams before one team starts getting choked out (when most of your towers are down and they're clearing every ward you place, making it impossible to leave your base if you don't want to get killed).

All of this is preventable. Maybe not at low elo but at higher levels of play it would be even more effective as with most competitive games yes!

FrikgeekNov 1, 20141 votes

It's not just about smite and ganking. You need to secure the rest of your jungle for XP and take a sightstone to ward while you roam. Also, the shortness of midlane means you don't have nearly as much "offensive space" as in top or bot lane, meaning it's harder to kill someone before they get to their tower.

Just as mids can't waveclear early, you can't push that hard in a 1v2 earlygame(remember, towers get a damage reduction buff before 7 minutes), especially as an AP midlaner. I really don't get what you mean by:

All of this is preventable. Maybe not at low elo but at higher levels of play it would be even more effective as with most competitive games yes!

Do you mean that your enemy not being an idiot and giving away free kills is preventable or that choking out your vision is preventable? Because there's really not much you can do about either. High Elo games have low killcounts and when one team takes a significant lead you have to hope for baron throws because that's the only way you're getting back into the game.

Ganking as a laner is always less effective than ganking as a jungler. The enemy laner can easily see you leaving, and you'll probably walk over a pink ward if you're going botlane(while most toplaners are too hard to kill as an underfarmed AP anyway).

If you still insist on this working in anything but low Elo then just rank up and prove it.

volume709Nov 1, 20141 votes

Just as mids can't waveclear early, you can't push that hard in a 1v2 earlygame(remember, towers get a damage reduction buff before 7 minutes), especially as an AP midlaner.

Yet the tower still falls...

Do you mean that your enemy not being an idiot and giving away free kills is preventable

On your own team I mean, personally. Yes it is impossible for a game to not have any mistakes but at higher levels of play there are less of them thus making duo mid and all other strategies more viable than at a silver level

that choking out your vision is preventable? Because there's really not much you can do about either.

I guess you haven't heard of sweepers... (this is sarcasm, of course you have heard of sweepers!) You might think that just because a jungler on stream you saw was the only one on a team using sweepers it is against the rules for anyone else to buy one as well! False! Not just the jungler can buy sweepers. You seem to be tunnel visioning again. I guess I have to remind you that the items you buy, the champions you select, and the lanes you choose to play are not predestined by the meta.

It's not just about smite and ganking. You need to secure the rest of your jungle for XP and take a sightstone to ward while you roam.

No.

Ganking as a laner is always less effective than ganking as a jungler. The enemy laner can easily see you leaving,

No.

most toplaners are too hard to kill as an underfarmed AP anyway

And.... No.

Half your argument is downright false. The rest of it is influenced by this belief that the current meta dictates how you should play, otherwise it is unviable.

Not trying to toot my own horn here by quoting myself but...

the tower still falls...

Just like your argument!

Hopefully the other open minded folks in this thread will help you to stop tunnel visioning. There is clearly nothing I can do for you!

FrikgeekNov 1, 20141 votes

the tower still falls

Yes, in your own experience, in silver

implying that you can effectively gank as a laner without getting spotted by wards in higher elo

implying that duo mid isn't a strat completely reliant on snowballing earlygame, therefore making it less effective when it's harder to force the enemy to make a mistake and snowball off of it

implying you'll ever kill a mundo or Renekton as a midlaner who only takes half farm

Sure, in silver. But not in any decent rating.

Sweepers prevent vision choking

Uh, how? Sweepers are the #1 tool for choking vision, they don't counter themselves. Once you lose your towers half the enemy team will have sweepers(except for maybe the adc who is going to have a scrying orb) and every ward you place in your own jungle will get sweeped out in a matter of seconds.

You seem to think that I'm basing my thoughts by watching streamers, but let me break that illusion of yours. I'm fucking master tier(You can easily confirm this on lolking or op.gg). I don't need to watch streams to see what high Elo looks like, I play in it every time I queue up for a ranked game.

volume709Nov 1, 20141 votes

Yes, in your own experience, in silver

I guess the tower wouldn't go down earlier in any other situation than. Just mine! Nope, it's still a 1v2 for a considerable amount of time in the game. Enough for the duo mid laners to capitalize on an advantage, in any league!

implying that duo mid isn't a strat completely reliant on snowballing earlygame

Nope, it's not any more reliant on snowballing than the current meta is. It capitalizes on an inevitable early game gold and composition advantage. If they send the support mid we still have a composition advantage which = gold advantage.

implying you'll ever kill a mundo or Renekton as a midlaner who only takes half farm

You've contradicted yourself once again! The mundo/ren will have considerably less farm than each individual mid laner and in the end we will just have a gold advantage. The tower will easily fall like your argument once again!

You clearly didn't take enough time to type up and think about this response, you're formatting suffered because of it! At this point I've noticed a pattern. You're responses can be summed up to statements like "but this..." "but your team..." "But that...." I will always have a counter argument because I have theorycrafted this strat. If it was any less effective, I wouldn't use it! So unless you have an actual argument that isn't influenced by how flustered you are I would kindly counter it! If you continue to let your emotions influence your argument I am afraid I would have to stop replying as I wouldn't want to cause any more distress!

FrikgeekNov 1, 20141 votes

Enough for the duo mid laners to capitalise on the advantage, in any league!

Your whole argument is centred around this idea of a 1v2 quickpush, but there's a reason why you do a quickpush with your ADC or toplaner. They have higher AD and do much more damage to towers. If you really wanted to put 2 people mid it would be much more effective to get an AD and a bruiser, not 2 mages. The tower will not fall before your bot tower does(because your adc is in a 1v2 too). Their ADC will be able to push faster, especially if the support takes AD marks(like a lot of high Elo supports do). Once the bot tower falls botlane can just rotate mid and stop your push, maybe even counterpushing to your tower.

Just go into a game and time how long it takes for 2 mages to push a tower versus how long it takes for an AD and support to do the same.

The mundo/rene will have considerable less farm than each individual mid laner

He's in a 1v1 lane while you guys have to share your cs. Even if the duo mid rotates recalls to get every single cs that toplaner will most likely hit 70% or more, depending on how hard he's getting ganked. Now your pooled cs might be higher than his, but you can't just leave mid and roam together. Do you seriously believe that a good toplaner won't look at his minimap and see 2 midlaners missing?

I will always have a counter argument

Except that you don't. These aren't counter arguments, they're baseless theories mostly formed by your low elo mentality. There are a lot of weird strats that work(like sending your bruiser with the support and letting the adc have a solo lane, or ganking at level 2 for a quick push), but duo mid doesn't happen to be one of them, at least not with the current state of the game.

if it was any less effective, I wouldn't use it!

You're still silver. If this strategy was actually effective you'd be at least diamond by now. You'd be winning way more than 52% of your games in silver. Look, I can win games with AD Lulu top when I smurf in gold, that doesn't mean it's a viable strategy that would work in master.

You're probably winning because the enemies are slow to adapt and start pushing themselves to counter your 1v2 push. This will almost certainly not happen in higher Elos.

As I've said before, prove me wrong by getting to high Elo using this strat. Make sure to leave a reply when you do.

volume709Nov 1, 20141 votes

ill most likely hit 70% or more, depending on how hard he's getting ganked.

Not 70% but I see your point. This stat also relies on outside help from the jungler. Neither of us are wrong. Neither of us are going to prove one strat to be better. Once again duo mid fits my play style better and I personally get better results with it. I am positive someone at a higher level would be able to pull this off as well.

Except that you don't. These aren't counter arguments, they're baseless theories

Could say the same for you. Once again everyone of your arguments rely on which champions are selected and how the game is played out. Of course in reality my team and the other team don't have the best composition to deal with duo mid but same could be said about the current meta strat.

You're still silver. If this strategy was actually effective you'd be at least diamond by now.

I do not have the mechanics to play at that level. A successful strategy on it's own does not get you promoted, it's your mechanical skills that get you there. I have proven this strategy to be just as viable as the current meta. You are really just rehashing all your previous arguments at this point perhaps because you realize you will not be able to 'win' this argument. I will not be replying to anything I have already answered before. If you have any more questions/demands that you wish to be answered please make sure they haven't been said in this thread already! Thank you!

Matthias9119Oct 31, 20141 votes

Duo mid is fine, even if your team isn't 100% in agreement... but not if someone with higher pick priority wants solo mid. You shouldn't barge into someone else's lane and be all "IMMA TAKE YOUR FARM, DEAL WITH IT". That's disrespectful at best, game-ruining at worst. If the guy who called mid first is fine with it, go nuts.

But if you want to run off-meta strategies all the time I strongly recommend Team Builder or forming a premade team. Or at least duo with someone else who wants to duo mid -- that way if either of you gets to pick mid you can share the lane.

IMO if your team forces you to (0-CS) support they don't get to complain if you want to use an off-meta support, as long as you are actually doing support-y things and not taking the ADC's CS.

volume709Oct 31, 20141 votes

There is no way any team would force you to not take cs because no one is entitled to the minions. Once again it is the current meta for a support to give the ADC all the cs but if I am going to select an APC support I am most likely going to take some cs so I can afford my support/AP items. This is the same logic I apply to duo mid. If we have two APCs I believe the gold should be distributed. I do not make it a game to take others cs I just take enough so I can afford my respectable items at a reasonable point in time. As should the other laner.

Matthias9119Oct 31, 20143 votes

It's one thing to disagree with your team about strategy. It's another to actively undermine them and not let them play the roles they want when they have higher pick priority than you.

However, I will totally agree that players should be more open-minded, even in Ranked play. But you need to try to TALK with them and agree on a strategy. If you CAN'T agree, you should be following pick order, which means not stealing someone else's lane just because you don't want to play a "meta" role.

volume709Oct 31, 20141 votes

I am not undermining or preventing anyone from playing their roles. I don't think this strat would work at all for me if I didn't communicate with my team. Believe it or not I don't get uncooperative teams as often as you might think. I play to win and I expect the other players to have the same mindset. It's not like I am just picking what I want because I don't get a solo lane. I insist on duo mid regardless of what pick I am. If I am first pick I will suggest it and because it isn't the current meta I don't get to do my preferred strategy.

Matthias9119Oct 31, 20142 votes

If the first pick(s) think having a solo mid is superior to running duo mid, and then you "insist" on running duo mid by going mid regardless, you are preventing them from running their preferred strategy.

I have no problem with anyone trying any wacky thing they want, even in Ranked, as long as it's something they think can actually work. But not if you have to bully or blackmail your team to do it. "I'm going mid no matter what, deal" is arguably not all that much better than "mid or feed".

Like I said before, if you want to do this in Ranked it would be a lot better if you duoed with someone who also wanted to run duo mid. Then if either of you get to pick when mid is still open you can call duo mid. But if someone else calls solo mid first you should not forcibly take the lane IMO.

volume709Nov 1, 20141 votes

I'm sure all ADCs would prefer a solo lane but there is always that dreaded 5th player on your team. I believe APC support to be more effective than the typical 0 cs full tank support. I believe the APC support role I've grown fond of is better utilized mid, I would never bully or blackmail anyone to play what I want. I make sacrifices to play the champions I enjoy just as we all have to make sacrifices to play how we want!

Matthias9119Nov 1, 20141 votes

I believe APC support to be more effective than the typical 0 cs full tank support.

Rock whatever champion you want as long as you're working with the team and trying to win. No problem there.

I believe the APC support role I've grown fond of is better utilized mid...

...and not everyone is going to agree. If you've got an early pick then -- IMO, at least -- part of what "pick order" encompasses is being able to take a solo lane if you want.

Your team should be talking with you and considering taking you up on duo mid, but if they don't think it is a good idea then forcing them to do it against their will starts to be really problematic. If you're the last pick and someone's taken a slot in each lane and the jungle, you should duo with the person who wants you there.

AtheosisXOct 31, 20141 votes

I am not undermining or preventing anyone from playing their roles. I don't think this strat would work at all for me if I didn't communicate with my team. Believe it or not I don't get uncooperative teams as often as you might think. I play to win and I expect the other players to have the same mindset. It's not like I am just picking what I want because I don't get a solo lane. I insist on duo mid regardless of what pick I am. If I am first pick I will suggest it and because it isn't the current meta I don't get to do my preferred strategy.

You started this thread under the premise that people immediately call you a troll when you posit your non-meta ideas, and now you say most teammates are cooperative. Which is it?

volume709Nov 1, 20141 votes

Perhaps I should have specified that most of the time when in game they cooperate. I very often get teams that trash talk, troll, and or dodge in the pregame lobby but when the game finally starts they drop the act in fear of the tribunal and decide to cooperate. If we win they either discard the fact that we won with a non meta strat or they very rarely praise me for my innovative play. If we lose I am flamed 100% of the time. I am generally reported unjustly which is the reason I make this post.

Sailor MintNov 1, 20142 votes

Are you serious? Do you have any idea how much of a selfish jerk you sound like?

You are forcing your beliefs on other people, against their will. Acting like a savior or a martyr depending on the outcome.

And then you post on the forums to complain about the "toxic community" that won't hail you as a savior and prophet, and instead persecute you for breaking the meta.

Your liberty ends where the liberty of others begins. Having fun at four other people's expense is unacceptable.

volume709Nov 1, 20141 votes

You are forcing your beliefs on other people, against their will. Acting like a savior or a martyr depending on the outcome.

Just as this community forced this "meta" on me.

I will no longer abide by this meta, I am sorry. There are many other ways to play.

And then you post on the forums to complain about the "toxic community" that won't hail you as a savior and prophet, and instead persecute you for breaking the meta.

I never asked for special treatment. All I want is to draw attention to the reaction I am getting because I am faced with toxicity by playing differently. Playing differently is actually a quality endorsed by Riot Games themselves. If it wasn't they would force me to play by your meta! I just want to be treated as equal and not be reporting for doing nothing wrong.

Having fun at four other people's expense is unacceptable.

I wholeheartedly agree, but the line must be drawn somewhere. Playing differently is not "trolling" simple as that. I cannot stress it enough that if you feel "trolled" when there are no rules being broken, it is your fault and no one elses.

Sailor MintNov 1, 20141 votes

It's not your decision. The standard meta was setup and is accepted by the majority.

You are ruining games. And what's worse, you either don't realize it or are denying it. Riot doesn't enforce the meta, but they do not condone selfish acts that infringe on the rights of others. You are not more important than the 9 other players in your game.

If you get 4 other people, that's fine. As soon as one person doesn't want to, it's your job to be the bigger man and play standard.

You don't sound like a very friendly person, if you act the same way ingame as you do on the forums, people disagreeing with you on the meta is the least of your worries.

volume709Nov 1, 20141 votes

It's not your decision.

Oh but it is! Nothing is in place to force me to conform to these "rules". You want to know why? Because the meta is not a set of rules.

The standard meta was setup and is accepted by the majority.

Sure! I accept that it is popular but I don't accept that is the best way to play for me to synergize with my team.

You are ruining games.

My win ratio with duo mid is higher than when I use the standard meta strategy so really showing others that there is more than one way to play and simultaneously winning is doing the opposite of "ruining games"

You are not more important than the 9 other players in your game.

The 9 players are not more important than me either. I support each and every individual players decision to play differently.

but they do not condone selfish acts that infringe on the rights of others.

You can argue the other players are being selfish by not allowing me to play the game the way I want. This can go both ways. Everyone on my team has to make sacrifices to play together. I don't just lock in one champion every game. I pick my champion base on what my team needs the most. In more ways than not I am actually working with my team whether you like it or not.

You don't sound like a very friendly person, if you act the same way ingame as you do on the forums, people disagreeing with you on the meta is the least of your worries.

I am sorry I don't account for the hypersensitivity of this community if that is what you are referencing. I am being nothing but civil. If you are offended by a simple disagreement I suggest maybe lightening up a little. I haven't made anything personal in this thread but here you go, getting personally offended by a different way of playing. Like I said

Playing differently is not "trolling" simple as that. I cannot stress it enough that if you feel "trolled" when there are no rules being broken, it is your fault and no one elses.

Paper1Nov 1, 20141 votes

Ok, so I tried reading everything I this nested conversation. It's hard to sum it up, but here's how I see it.

You don't seem to agree with the idea that "the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few". Disagree with that as much as you like, but the fact is most people in solo q accept that idea. I suggest if you want to play this way, you find four other people who think the way that you do and try your starts then. Sorry, but unless you are someone who is universally accepted to understand this game and can convince the masses with your revolutionary ideas, then you will have a hard time getting people to play that way. You are the latter, so am I, so is the majority of the player base. Feel free to continue to share your opinions, good luck with that, but please, keep it out of my, and any other guys solo q games

volume709Nov 1, 20141 votes

"the needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few"

I'm pretty sure riot would agree that each individual players opinions should be considered, not just the majority.

Sorry, but unless you are someone who is universally accepted to understand this game and can convince the masses with your revolutionary ideas, then you will have a hard time getting people to play that way.

All I want is for people to cooperate together. Play together in a way that promotes teamwork instead of discarding anything that isn't the current meta. I have proven I am anything but selfish in this thread. I don't need a 50k twitch viewer following to promote this mindset.

keep it out of my, and any other guys solo q games

It's the way I play. If I end up in one of your games I will most likely do it because it is my main strategy!

Paper1Nov 2, 20142 votes

You cant speak for riot. Unless you give me proof that they say that, I will simply assume that statement is false. First, it is very unlikely that everyone will agree on a chosen topic. If 5 hungry people were on a deserted island, and four of them wanted to find food, but you wanted to make a campfire, then assuming you can only do one of these things, four people will go find food and completely ignore your idea of making a campfire. Now you can persuade me all you like whether you think a campfire is better than getting food, but in the end if I want food and other people want food with me, then I have the right to get food. You also have the right to make a campfire by yourself. The different with your league games in champion select is that you are getting a bamboo cage, putting the other 4 people on your team into it and locking it for twenty minutes until your campfire is built. It is wrong to lock people up in a bamboo cage, because now I cant get food so i could die of starvation (or in a league game, losing the game), only because YOU wanted to build a campfire.

You cant force people to cooperate with each other. In a game where you can meet four random strangers every game, sure you can persuade all you like, but the reality is you wont be able to get everyone to cooperate 100 percent of the time. I never said you were selfish, but from what I have read, you haven't convinced me that you are team player. I have read as many arguments that you have made as I can. You can twist mine and other people's arguments any way you want, but by making this thread and placing your opinions on the internet, you have opted into, whether knowingly or not, being open for judgement on your opinions. It is not up to you to judge your "strategy", its for us to judge it. Many people's judgement here is that you are not a team player because of what you may have said in text, or people have read between the lines and come to this conclusion.

I honestly don't believe anything I say will make you change your mind. Maybe you will not respect my opinion like you have done to many others here. But if there is one thing I really want to try and grill into you, its this: If you joined my game and I feel that you are, whether forcefully or not, asking me to play something that I am not comfortable with. I have the right to say no to you. In addition,if the majority of other players in the game feel alike and if you continue to either persuade to me to do your strategy or you just follow through with your strategy, then you should not be surprised that I persuade you back to not do it for the sake of the 3 or 4 other people in OUR TEAM that agree with me. If you refuse, then I will report you for it, because you have basically just locked me and three or four other people in a cage for twenty minutes.

That's all I'm going to say, because I'm tired and I'm sick of regular people like me on this particular thread that are raising some very good points and flaws in your argument, and yet you still insist you are right, without any proper, and I mean proper, scientific proof that your ideas are indeed superior to the current meta. Have a nice day :)

volume709Nov 2, 20141 votes

I can assure you I am not putting anyone in a "bamboo cage". My main goal is to win and if refuse to cooperate you are contributing to the demise of the game not me. Like I have said I am cooperating with my team 100% and apparently it isn't enough for the average LoL player who refuses to be open minded. Yes alternate strategies can work! If you aren't willing to consider that then it's your problem. I understand it may be hard to look at things from a different perspective. A majority of the replies opposed to my strategy in this thread are from about two people. Everyone else agrees that my teammates refusing to cooperate with me are the issue. Maybe in the future you will open your mind like some of the other here.

Paper1Nov 2, 20141 votes

Firstly, I am disappointed with the rather abrupt response. I don't think you really embraced what I had to say. Whether you know it or not, you are putting people in a cage, if at any point in your decision making you decide to go against the majority no matter what. It's, quite frankly, rude. You think this is the apprentice where every game you are the project manager. You are NOT that. By disagreeing with the team, you are creating the risk of demise because all hope of five people getting along Is gone. If four people agreed with you, then you are right, I would be causing the risk of demise. But I bet that's not true in your case, is it? If you truly are trying your best to cooperate, then do it. Follow through with the strategy of the four people in the team. I also find it baffling that you expect people to fully consider your strategy in the time given during champion select. There is literally no time in champion select to consider all the reprocussions of an alternate strategy, whereas everyone should be able to in every game know the reprocussions of the standard meta. That does not mean I'm closed minded, it just means I'm going to go with what I know is an optimal strategy.

Like I said, if you find four or three other people who want to do alternate strategies, then great, go do that. Otherwise, just carefully read my post again. I've taken time out of my day to respond to this, you should be thankful for that. Don't claim that this is a respectful argument either. If you disregard any point I try to make, it's disrespectful. Plain and simple

Paper1Nov 2, 20141 votes

I replied to your recent thread, but to the wrong comment. You can find it after my response and before your previous response.

volume709Nov 2, 20141 votes

Agreement =/= cooperation, there is simply no correlation whatsoever. You see, I don't agree with the meta and I don't let it dictate how I play, otherwise it would actually restrict my options. I don't have to agree with my team to cooperate with them 100%, simple as that. I understand you might think this because quite frankly you are looking at this very one dimensionally but please, I insist you open your mind!

Paper1Nov 2, 20141 votes

Agreement =/= cooperation, there is simply no correlation whatsoever. You see, I don't agree with meta and I don't let it dictate how I play, otherwise it would actually restrict my options. I don't have to agree with my team to cooperate with them 100%, simple as that. I understand you might think this because quite frankly you are looking at this very one dimensionally but please, I insist you open your mind!

You are right, Agreement doesn't equal cooperation. However, you are incorrect that there is absolutely no correlation whatsoever. Just like how I have not yet proven that there is a positive one, and unless I actually carry out a survey of a good sample of league players, I probably never will. I'm going to have a go at explaining why anyway. There might be something mathematical I may have overlooked, so I'm going to use this page as a reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_and_dependence

I want to use a scatter graph for my argument. For a scatter graph, we need the two variables we want to compare (Agreement and Cooperation), a scale for each variable and the topic that each variable is based on. Since this is a team game with five people on each team, the topic will be selected so that each point on the graph represents how much I agree with the other four people on my team and how cooperative I am with the four other people on my team. The scale shall be an average percentage value, and I do mean average because values of agreement and cooperation will change throughout the game. Is taking the average an acceptable measure? That's debatable, but I believe it is a good compromise. In a standard game, there will be multiple events that occur that effect these variables, and by excluding outliers, we will probably get an average that is reliable. Finally, we need a sample size. We can take it to be as large as we want. It would take too much time in practice to survey everyone of course, but we aren't, so lets just assume the sample size is big enough so that it reflects the whole population of league players.

Lets think. What would the distribution of points probably look like? Ignoring the trend for the moment, I think the points would be arranged like the top left graph from this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_and_dependence#mediaviewer/File:Anscombe%27s_quartet_3.svg i.e. A good spread of points that range from 0 to 100 percent in both variables. Maybe you can get clusters at certain parts of the graph, but it is basically a hypothesis. Nobody knows what the actual graph will look like until somebody actually does the experiment.

Here's where the disagreement is. As you have explained it to me, you think there is no correlation at all. On a scatter graph, that would be represented by points spread out across the whole graph with no noticeable pattern whatsoever, so not outliers or clusters e.t.c. I think that we will get a good spread of points across the whole graph, but cluster to form a diagonal line from the data points (0,0) to (100,100). If you need a picture, feel free to ask and Ill see if I can draw one. This shows a positive correlation. Why do I think this will be the result? Ask yourself this:

Is there a good reason why I would 100 percent agree with my team and be 0 percent cooperative? or 2)Is there a good reason why I would 0 percent agree with my team and be 100 percent cooperative? Oh btw, just so we understand the meanings of the words: https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=cooperate https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=agree

For 1), I would point to a situation where you have a guy who is just selfish and wants to do everything his way/afk. He may agree with everything the guys say, but for whatever crazy reason he has, he just doesn't want to do it that way. That's probably someone I would report.

running out of characters so going onto another one.

Paper1Nov 2, 20141 votes

for 2), The best situation I can think of is a surrender vote. Maybe a person wants to surrender and the other four don't, but even tho they disagree with them, they will continue to work with them and try to win the game.

So there are reasons for both, but I think the amount of players relative to the middle man (50,50) is small, from experience of playing the game and how many of these kinds of people I meet on a daily basis. If you want to put a number on it, I can go by the tribunal statistics that the toxic community makes up less than 5 percent of the player base (I don't know a link, but if you do some research, you can probably find it somewhere). From experience, I think a good proportion of those players fall under category (1). Therefore, there are 95 percent of players not in the top left or bottom right of my graph, hence the diagonal line I was talking about.

One final thing about this I want to point out is that "correlation does not imply causation", so I cant conclude that the more I agree with my teammates, the more cooperative I'll be or vice versa, but because of the reasoning, its a good educated guess. If I want to interchange these worlds and it still makes sense in context, then I will do so. If you are person number (2), then good for you you cant change who your are, but you should be willing to accept that 95 percent of the player base is likely to be category (3) i.e. on the line joining (0,0) and (100,100).

Btw, I'm not thinking one dimensionally: http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/One-dimensional_thinking I think if you look at some of the questions i've posed above, I've talked about the middle ground. Also, I am open minded: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-mindedness You have to take my word for it over the internet that I have read a fair amount of your arguments and thought about it for a good while before posting. I don't think that's what you mean though, you are talking about open mindedness in champion select and in game. Like I said last post however, it is simply unfair of you to expect me to be open minded about an idea which you cant fully explain in a pick/ban phase and which I cant fully analyze in the time given. Likewise in game where things are happening all the time and I'm trying to focus on multiple things at once.

Hope that helps you understand where I am coming from. If you accuse me of not being things that I am not again, then I really am not going to respond again, because its basically verbal abuse. Thanks

volume709Nov 3, 20141 votes

That's probably someone I would report.

Except, it's just not reportable because the summoners code is not being broken. Once again I can apply a similar logic of your needlessly lengthy post to other players "selfishly" forcing me to abide by their way of playing. In the end I am here to promote and endorse a different style of play and to encourage other players to pick and play in whatever way benefits their team on less of a general level!

In closing, neither of us are wrong about which strat is better, it's a matter of preference and applicability! Although, I applaud you for taking the time at an attempt to besmirch my loyalty to the game and the summoners code! A great read indeed!

Paper1Nov 3, 20142 votes

I love this. It basically proves you have no solid counterargument's to any of my well thought out points, and resort to making false claims that I am a selfish or questioning your loyalty to league of legends, neither of which you have any evidence for.

I will, for one last time, pick on the points you made. Basically if you click the report button, there are categories, two of which are "Leaving the game/afk" and "Griefing: Assisting the enemy team". The type A person I described earlier is reportable for A, since afk'ing is just unacceptable. Under a few circumstances, I could report the type B person in the second category, as a consequence of them doing something in game like "afk farming" and then continuously dying for it, then refusing to change their strategy. Your quote only refers to type A, but I suspect you will probably pick on this next, so I thought id mention it :).

My last post wasn't about which strat was better, it was about the correlation between agreement and cooperation among a team of five. The previous posts maybe, but that's not my aim. The bottom line is, it is me and the majority of the player base who believe that the current standard strategy of playing the game is optimal, until another strategy is then accepted to be the most optimal. For anyone wanting to win games in league of legends, this is important since you maximize your chances of victory while minimizing the chances of defeat. It is exactly like how scientists propose theorems to each other, check them, and then draw a conclusion on whether the theorem is true, until new information is gained that disproves it.

My advice for you is to attempt something like this if you want people to accept your way of playing, but you need to do it properly. That is, compare games that use the current strategy with your strategy, find patterns in map control, play style, objectives, gold difference e.t.c. and after a while, if you manage to explain using the results that your strategy is indeed optimal, then you will have proved me and the rest of the player base wrong. A lot more people will probably start using your strategy, until of course the next best thing comes along.

Fortunately, there will always be some people who agree with you now, and will be willing to play with you and your strategy. I would recommend trying that out. It will probably make you happier, or if not, I know it'll make us happier. Thank you for reading and good luck.

PS I honestly didn't remember the summoners code, but its not like I had to anyway, all the points seem pretty trivial. BTW, I found point number four very relevant here :).