About mages on bot...

Muirgilla·Apr 6, 2018·38 votes·2,787 views

I play adc and 8/10 game when I have a mage on bot against me I am more afraid of him, instead of the adc. You guys had those games where there were 2 mage "supports" at bot and the 2 adcs were desperately struggling to farm while being obliriated by the "support" mages? I mean... a mage support combo (let's say a brand e + w) does more then 50% of my hp as damage, while staying safe from a distance i cannot counterattack. And this damage sticks on during the whole game, even gets worse, there is no "weak early" or "weak late" game. I know - i am supposed to douge all that stuff, but making 1 mistake cuts off my head completely? I need to play perfectly every 10 seconds or so (interval between their combos) just to survive, not even thinking about fighting? Meanwhile that retard playing a mage bot has to hit 1 of his 30 attempts to combo me and that completely shuts down the lane for me? How come? I just find it frustrating getting 70% of my health bar being removed from the 2/5 mage support and magically in the end have less damage dealt then that support, despite having a better score.

47 Comments

Aerial Queen LizApr 6, 201823 votes

You know, mages see it the other way around, cause they have mana issues, and are based on cooldowns where ADCs don't need mana nearly as much and once they get their core items they just need to auto and keep a good position. And even though a mage can burst you down with 1 combo, it's also true that if a Blitz grabs him the mage is pretty much as dead as any ADC, so positioning is required in both classes. What Mages have in burst, they lack in DPS. Meanwhile we have ADCs like Twitch or Vayne and Tristana, that have both dps and burst with Shiv. As you say the mage has to hit his combo 1 out of 20 attempts, but at the 5 attempt he's probably out of mana, and if you and your support can't play around his cooldowns and just play passive the whole lane, the result will be obvious.

ValiantKillerApr 6, 201821 votes

[{quoted}](name=Feathers Waltz,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6YT5EcAv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-06T17:02:50.504+0000)

You know, mages see it the other way around, cause they have mana issues, and are based on cooldowns where ADCs don't need mana nearly as much and once they get their core items they just need to auto and keep a good position. And even though a mage can burst you down with 1 combo, it's also true that if a Blitz grabs him the mage is pretty much as dead as any ADC, so positioning is required in both classes. What Mages have in burst, they lack in DPS. Meanwhile we have ADCs like Twitch or Vayne and Tristana, that have both dps and burst with Shiv. As you say the mage has to hit his combo 1 out of 20 attempts, but at the 5 attempt he's probably out of mana, and if you and your support can't play around his cooldowns and just play passive the whole lane, the result will be obvious.

Still i think he is having problem with more than others mages support from the way he typed his post, but if that is the case i agree brand is over powered right now all it take one fire pillar after his point to click e.

flibitydooApr 6, 201810 votes

the problem is your saying he's oom after attempt 5, but he can easily spam the combo for a continuous 10 mins before running oom due to how the support item gives mana regen.

The actual flat mana mage items, yes you do run oom after several full rotations (which is why mid mages complain about mana, but I think it's because riot balances around high level play aka the 2nd blue buff onwards always goes to midlane which is not true at all in soloQ) but when the mage goes botlane and gets support mana regen items, it basically makes mana an irrelevant stat when used in conjunction with the mana runes like manaflow brand.

SpecterVonBarenApr 6, 201816 votes

Its more that since a "support" mage doesn't need to use their spells for wave clear, so all that mana that would have been used to help vs can all go into attacking the enemy.

MarothennanApr 6, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Feathers Waltz,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6YT5EcAv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-06T17:02:50.504+0000)

You know, mages see it the other way around, cause they have mana issues, and are based on cooldowns where ADCs don't need mana nearly as much and once they get their core items they just need to auto and keep a good position. And even though a mage can burst you down with 1 combo, it's also true that if a Blitz grabs him the mage is pretty much as dead as any ADC, so positioning is required in both classes. What Mages have in burst, they lack in DPS. Meanwhile we have ADCs like Twitch or Vayne and Tristana, that have both dps and burst with Shiv. As you say the mage has to hit his combo 1 out of 20 attempts, but at the 5 attempt he's probably out of mana, and if you and your support can't play around his cooldowns and just play passive the whole lane, the result will be obvious.

If they don't like not having mana then they can happily go mid and buy a tear :)

AirKingNeoApr 7, 20182 votes

You know, mages see it the other way around, cause they have mana issues, and are based on cooldowns

item 3802

And we wonder why midlane is uninteractive waveclear in high tiers...

Elisza KitsuneApr 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Feathers Waltz,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6YT5EcAv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-06T17:02:50.504+0000)

You know, mages see it the other way around, cause they have mana issues, and are based on cooldowns where ADCs don't need mana nearly as much and once they get their core items they just need to auto and keep a good position. And even though a mage can burst you down with 1 combo, it's also true that if a Blitz grabs him the mage is pretty much as dead as any ADC, so positioning is required in both classes. What Mages have in burst, they lack in DPS. Meanwhile we have ADCs like Twitch or Vayne and Tristana, that have both dps and burst with Shiv. As you say the mage has to hit his combo 1 out of 20 attempts, but at the 5 attempt he's probably out of mana, and if you and your support can't play around his cooldowns and just play passive the whole lane, the result will be obvious.

Xerath has virtually little to no mana issues bot lol and with someone like Caitlyn who can mega poke; walking out of turret or sometimes even staying near it can be a death sentence and always being forced to back makes them chunk towers especially if you have no jg pressure bot

rtbf221651412Apr 7, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Feathers Waltz,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6YT5EcAv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-06T17:02:50.504+0000)

You know, mages see it the other way around, cause they have mana issues, and are based on cooldowns

Wut.

-Support main.

Flawless FetusApr 7, 20181 votes

You're right... But op is talking about laning vs mage supports. Early game aas don't do shit. Adcs are pretty garbage until they get their core items. At which case they have way more dps than a support mage. Ops post wasn't referencing mid, late though. He's complaining about laning vs mage "supports". What you say is true, I'm just not sure how it holds any relevance. Lol.

HópeApr 7, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Feathers Waltz,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6YT5EcAv,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-04-06T17:02:50.504+0000)

You know, mages see it the other way around, cause they have mana issues,

No they dont.

DraehlApr 6, 20187 votes

Just another symptom of nearly every champion doing too much damage. Riot needs to seriously reexamine TTK and look into buffing both base and scaling HP.

Pika FoxApr 7, 20187 votes

Youre supposed to be more afraid of the support than the enemy ADC. ADCs are garbage early unless youre a fringe pick like cait or varus. Supports dictate the entire lane phase, and usually have much higher damage output as well.

If you dont respect the thresh, leona, blitz, brand, etc., you WILL die. If you dont repsect the ADC, youll take an auto or two. Maybe need to B.

AptestApr 6, 20185 votes

here is how i see it, as a support main.

A mage support has advantages and disadvantages over a support support. he will have more damage. Probably this can ramp up to a solo laner's levels. but he will have less control. Therefore not only his ADC but also himself will be less able to apply this damage.

As the ADC in this matchup, please understand you can't have the cake of getting to deal all the sweet damage every game. Some games are simply not built around you dealing the damage and you getting the kills.

So what should you do? pick a safer or more independent champion and focus on being useful regardless. I suggest Lucian.

The weak point in a mage support's game is the mid game. When their lack of items makes their base damage not sufficient, and they havn't picked up enough passive gold to hurt. As a support support, you are in a comparable situation damage wize, but your utility does not go away.

As an ADC, a combination of small magic resist items and your usual item build (build a hexdrinker, you will not regret it) will allow you to punish their low point.

MuirgillaApr 6, 20184 votes

{quoted}

here is how i see it, as a support main.

A mage support has advantages and disadvantages over a support support. he will have more damage. Probably this can ramp up to a solo laner's levels. but he will have less control. Therefore not only his ADC but also himself will be less able to apply this damage.

As the ADC in this matchup, please understand you can't have the cake of getting to deal all the sweet damage every game. Some games are simply not built around you dealing the damage and you getting the kills.

So what should you do? pick a safer or more independent champion and focus on being useful regardless. I suggest Lucian.

--

The weak point in a mage support's game is the mid game. When their lack of items makes their base damage not sufficient, and they havn't picked up enough passive gold to hurt. As a support support, you are in a comparable situation damage wize, but your utility does not go away.

As an ADC, a combination of small magic resist items and your usual item build (build a hexdrinker, you will not regret it) will allow you to punish their low point.

Hmm I totally get and respect your point of view. I am curious - what do you mean by "being useful regardless". All an adc can bring to the table is damage, I believe. If I am not dealing the damage what else can I do that makes me useful? Ever wonder why brand/zyra/annie mid is not a thing anymore (in 90% of the cases)? Because I do. I miss the time when those champions actually had some risk associated with them. Now that assassin jungler (or tank maybe, they deal nearly the same damage meh) would rather focus that juicy Ashe, witch they sometimes mistake for a caster minion, can't blame them. As mentioned above - those mages went from mid to bot, because of the free mana regen, but also because they feel more safe just hiding in the bush and spamming 1 or 2 spells without taking any risk whatsoever. Not to mention the ignite buff. Lastly - I am not an adc main, but I DO believe that I should be getting not all the damage, but at least more then half of the damage from my lane every game. The role of a mage support should be a supportive damage source, but not the main damage source.

ampheonApr 6, 20182 votes

{quoted}> I am curious - what do you mean by "being useful regardless". All an adc can bring to the table is damage, I believe. If I am not dealing the damage what else can I do that makes me useful?

While you may not be doing damage, most adcs have good sieging potential (the best being Caitlyn) and are great at dealing damage to objectives (where Kalista is one of the best)

Lastly - I am not an adc main, but I DO believe that I should be getting not all the damage, but at least more then half of the damage from my lane every game. The role of a mage support should be a supportive damage source, but not the main damage source.

Personally, as a support main, I do not mind a damage support doing the majority of the damage in the lane (especially since certain adcs have comparatively little damage during lane), as long as there is some point where they fall off and have to rely on they're utility+damage, rather then be a second midlaner. As the least supporty and the most damage focused, their winning should be largely focused on winning lane, or heavily zoning the opposing adc from CS, as they should be at least slightly gold dependent for damage. If not, a normal support should be able to outscale due to having more utility.

Of course, I don't play damage supports as often, but they do make the lane interesting, provided they have some utility to their damage (like Zyra , who generally needs to hit the root first), but not , because he's pure damage and the stun is only icing on his combo.

AptestApr 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Hmm I totally get and respect your point of view.

Let me sharpen the image a little bit. The laning phase is hard and you have to bide your time because of the skillshot spam and the overabundance of base damage. There is a timing where their usefulness drops sharply, and you want to exploit it.

I am curious - what do you mean by "being useful regardless". All an adc can bring to the table is damage, I believe. If I am not dealing the damage what else can I do that makes me useful?

Some ADCs spike in the mid game or have easy way of outplaying "skillshot mages" or have utility. even if you don't have any of these, your damage may not be late game but it is still very much there.

Ever wonder why brand/zyra/annie mid is not a thing anymore (in 90% of the cases)? Because I do. I miss the time when those champions actually had some risk associated with them. Now that assassin jungler (or tank maybe, they deal nearly the same damage meh) would rather focus that juicy Ashe, witch they sometimes mistake for a caster minion, can't blame them. As mentioned above - those mages went from mid to bot, because of the free mana regen, but also because they feel more safe just hiding in the bush and spamming 1 or 2 spells without taking any risk whatsoever. Not to mention the ignite buff.

Brand / Zyra were initially pushed to bot lane by the a combination of very mobile opponents that were very good at dealing with skillshot mages, and higher range siege mages poking them from outside their range. As these guys are generally DPSers, just like ADCs, they are not as good at protecting their own ass if they are alone.

But definitely they found their place because abusing early game advantage is easier than abusing a mid game power spike, and because dealing damage is fun.

Lastly - I am not an adc main, but I DO believe that I should be getting not all the damage, but at least more then half of the damage from my lane every game. The role of a mage support should be a supportive damage source, but not the main damage source.

I agree with you. this game is based on the premise that damage is gated by gold. This is a baseline assumption in the game. Should be kept.

Lastly i do think that mage supports are overall good for the game. they spice things up and keep the dynamics of bot lane to be not stagnant. They throw a wrench in the "all tanjk" or "all janna" metas we sometimes see.

Zane ZephyrApr 6, 20181 votes

They aren't played mid because they're immobile, short ranged, and exploitable

In brand and zyra's case, they have very situational CC that if missed it leaves them defenseless and it's all skillshots.

They also have kits that work well against multiple people and just luckily there's two people bot lane so it makes sense that they are played down there as opposed to mid lane

AlienPrimateApr 6, 20184 votes

{quoted}

I need to play perfectly every 10 seconds or so (interval between their combos) just to survive, not even thinking about fighting?

They have cooldowns. You do not. You said it yourself. Immediately after they miss their combo you should engage and they will be helpless.

MuirgillaApr 6, 20188 votes

{quoted}

They have cooldowns. You do not. You said it yourself. Immediately after they miss their combo you should engage and they will be helpless.

Sounds good on paper, doesn't work ingame. By the way I am not an adc main, don't put me in that category, I just play it as an off-lane. In most cases the support is the one that engages, I have to follow through after him. So yet again, I am dependent on another person's actions. You see, I was a top lane main for 3 seasons, until all the tanks made me switch that lane to jungle/adc. So yeah, I guess I have the mindset of a player that wants to take the game in my own hands (and I find nothing wrong with that in solo que), so having to relay on my support to punish the opposite support is kinda eeh... And also - how would I engage a zyra/lux/brand that spam their harass abilities on me, saving their CC in case I try to counter fight them? And we all know that when somebody is walking towards you it's much easier to hit a spell like zyra/lux q, for example.

ampheonApr 6, 20181 votes

Against a lux, Thresh is the best answer, though pretty much any catcher or vanguard support will work, just try not to get poked down too much and wait until level 2/3

AimléssApr 6, 20181 votes

I don't think you even read what he said. He is playing ADC, not sup. You can't even think of an ADC to counter them, cause there really aren't any ADC's that can deal with a Zyra or Brand early without the support doing most of the work, except maybe an early game powerhouse like MF or Jhin and only really Jhin can engage himself.

ampheonApr 7, 20181 votes

Whoops, meant for him to ask his support to choose Thresh. Prob shouldve made that more clear

AimléssApr 8, 20181 votes

GL with that. I have to beg my autofill sups not to play Ezreal and MF, plus if they're not good at Thresh they're gonna get destroyed their best bet is Janna, can poke and will keep them alive.

AptestApr 7, 20182 votes

{quoted} In most cases the support is the one that engages, I have to follow through after him. So yet again, I am dependent on another person's actions.

looks like i missed this question so let me try and answer it.

in most cases it is as you said. The ADC must wait for a catch or initiation skill to connect on the enemy team and have the enemy team's burst controlled by the initiation before committing.

In many cases this catch skill is coming from the team's support, but if your team has a mage support than someone else on your team should do this job. For instance a tank jungler or tank top lane or tank mid (can be non tank options like Olaf and Anivia too). So instead of waiting for your Leona to go in or for your Nami to get a good bubble, you wait for your top lane nanutilus to get a good catch. Basically you do the same routine as before only you wait for a different character to start it up.

If your team doesn't have these options because everybody keeps telling the guy lower on the pick order to pick a tank while they pick an assassin or a duelist themselves and you end up with a team comp like fizz fiora kahzix lucian brand, than you're a little bit F-ed composition wise and hopefully you get some proper mistakes from he enemy team.

Adn yes, there's definitely a tug-o-war between the different lanes / roles on who "gets" to play the tank, with everybody wanting to have tank play solidify as the other lane's job (junglers want tank tops as a norm, top laners want tank jungles as a norm etc) and basically all of them want support to have a tank meta (only, if tahm kench is powerful enough to 1v1 the enemy top lane because that's his privilige as a juggernaut than please nerf him).

Because while everybody understands that "tanks" are super important composition wise, they are not as fun to play as, say, a jax or a Camille.

AptestApr 7, 20181 votes

{quoted} In most cases the support is the one that engages, I have to follow through after him. So yet again, I am dependent on another person's actions.

looks like i missed this question so let me try and answer it.

in most cases it is as you said. The ADC must wait for a catch or initiation skill to connect on the enemy team and have the enemy team's burst controlled by the initiation before committing.

...and in this case you should pick a high utility carry like Ashe or Kalista and be ok with getting killed early in the fights because you have to play bait. your team has enough damage.

Because while everybody understands that "tanks" are super important composition wise, they are not as fun to play as, say, a jax or a Camille.

SaiannaApr 6, 20184 votes

Meanwhile that retard playing a mage bot

how about dodge those skillshots? In lategame your every AA is like 1hit-KO for a mage.

ChuShoeApr 7, 20184 votes

You're not talking about mage supports, you're talking about brand. And I'm sure everyone on here agrees that brand is very overtuned right now.

vgamedudeApr 7, 20183 votes

lmao adcs complaining about a class that has to worry about mana, scales far worse, can miss their spells, have far more of an effect on abilities with CDs, don't get lifesteal etc.

5050BSApr 7, 20185 votes

worry about mana??!!

LOLOL item 3003 + MFB = no mana issues ever

vgamedudeApr 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

worry about mana??!!

LOLOL + MFB = no mana issues ever

Love how the special people browsing this forum upvoted you as if you frequently get a finished damn staff on bot lane mage.

God this place sucks.

ZaneShadowApr 6, 20182 votes

So I do want to explain how Supports work. They are fairly average or slightly above average normally. They then fall off personally to buff their ADC with items and abilities. Adc are the reverse. They start fairly weak, making the Supports feel like dieties in the mean time. But as the game goes on, ADC out scale the supports, leaving them in the dust.

So look at lane, supports should start scarier than the adc. But then as the laning phase goes on and gets close to over, it becomes the adc who take over. Some supports bounce back after that, but most don't. Their job becomes cc robots with heal/shields for their adc. As a support main, i love the job, but ya.

Supreme Senpai69Apr 7, 20182 votes

supports are stronger early on. ADCs are really weak early on, except for a few like draven

FrostQueensPlaneApr 6, 20181 votes

Mage supports are complete garbage right now I honestly don't understand how this is the only board that can still find people to complain about them. It's actually stupid as hell.

ZaneShadowApr 6, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Mage supports are complete garbage right now I honestly don't understand how this is the only board that can still find people to complain about them. It's actually stupid as hell.

hey hey, none of that. Ya support mages are really weak right now, but with the recent locket and tank support item nerf, they should be bouncing back a little bit now. He's an adc, hes naturally going to want to play with and against tank supports (besides leona). Its like how i feel about top lane. I love it when my team picked a tank, but when I play top lane I'd play weaker options like jugernaughts and because Im familiar with them my opponent would get hosed and make my class look broken. It's about personal perception here, as rediculus as that sounds. No need to flame a guy. I do wish he was a bit calmer about it on his end though.

AimléssApr 6, 20188 votes

They're straight up cancer in lane, and make it a horrible experience for the ADC if the sup doesn't know what he's doing. The reason their winrates aren't super high is because they fall off mid game, but who cares if they fall off if they're making my lane literal cancer!

ShinjusukeApr 6, 20181 votes

Any of the "support" mages that are there for no other reason than Riot's massive failure to make them appealing mid laners are problems.

Lux at least has a shield, so her kit at least does something "support"-y. I hate seeing her as a support, but there is an argument for her being one, at least.

But Zyra should not be bot lane just because Riot crapped on her potential as a mid.

Brand, the LIVING ENTITY OF FLAME THAT WANTS TO BURN THE ENTIRE WORLD TO A CRISP, should NOT be bot lane playing "oh dear I have to keep my ADC safe that's my job" just because Riot refuses to make him a viable mid.

Support has been a trash can for immobile Mages Riot has ruined for way too fucking long, and it's infuriating.

I'm waiting for the day when they nerf Ekko or Xerath hard enough that they can't be played mid or top and get shoved into support. Not because they're supposed to be supports, but because Riot ruins Mage kits, leaves them that way, and then they can only support viably.

DraehlApr 6, 20182 votes

Zyra could do better in mid if it was a lower damage environment overall. Her kit has a lot of sustained damage with her plants while at the same time, as you point out she is immobile, making her easy to implode even at full hp. Slow down the game's overall TTK and she'd be quite viable mid. As for her being botlane- that's where the Q+W plant poke, root, and knockup are handy. I can see you hating on Brand bot since he's pretty much raw damage, but Zyra is a lot closer to a catcher support than most mages. As a Bard main I play Zyra and Nami as my backups. Aside from doing more damage and having no heals, I don't feel they play massively different from one another.

SerophousApr 6, 20181 votes

Man, you would've gone crazy seeing soraka / blitz bot in pro play

KaeblenApr 6, 20181 votes

Now, I'm not saying you're wrong, but...

now you know how the rest of us have felt for about ADC's...how long now?

Lolman978Apr 6, 20181 votes

Hey I used to play AP Lux support

Till I one shot the ADC and Support with one Q and R

I don't play her anymore

MezoApr 7, 20181 votes

You can play Lucian , Sivir or MF and kill them in lane instead of playing Champions like Twitch , Tristana , Vayne ,etc.. I used to play Mid last season but during Ardent meta i played support and ofc mage supports Because Winning or losing depends on what happening in Bot lane. Champions like Zyra, Brand , Lux , Karma are useful to make enemy ADC behind as much as possible .. But yea now it different maybe i should play mid again without losing my chance to carry because the meta changing right now.

TeCoolMageApr 7, 20181 votes

Depending on your support, hex drinker is your friend

P0IS0N IVYApr 7, 20181 votes

I honestly can't justify creating an argument in return for this just because so much is based off of pure salt.

You claim to play adc but you for some reason you have no idea who controls the laning phase.

ShablagooApr 7, 20181 votes

Well this makes sense ya considering you should be weak early game? I Also think later in the game you can easily auto attack and dodge literally doing nothing while a mage has to land his stuff, if he misses then he dies, what do you have to miss after having two items?

Meep ManApr 7, 20181 votes

Because, unlike what people think, Marksman are weaker than damage oriented Supports early game by a fairly large gap. Marksman are, however, undoubtedly better late game. There's only about two, maybe three or four Mages in the game that even border with how good a farmed late game Marksman is and most of them go Middle.

CraktiteApr 7, 20181 votes

When i play mage 10/10 game i have an ADC on bot with AND against me. And since I start to play (S3), there is problem no? When i go mid i can see Yasuo champ, assassin, mage (all class). Top i can see fighter, tanks and sometimes mage (battlemage) or ADC. Jungle i can see Assassin, fighter, tanks, some adc and some mage. Support i can see "support", some mage and tanks. But always adc : balance problem.

Glory97Apr 7, 20181 votes

Mages have long cooldowns, they are skillshot reliant and they have to back everytime the get hit by an ability before a fight breaks out, because they have zero sustain. Meanwhile the adc can do everything he wants in teamfights. He does as much burst as the mage just by rightclicking and he can do the damage permanently, he can eat eat two poke abilities, but attack three times and get back full health. When he gets hit by cc he can just qss and sometimes they can even revive with ga.

This is the perspective of every mage player in lategame. It's quite similar to how you describe the early game perspective of adcs isn't it?