Unpopular Opinion: Ryze is not overpowered

Exdeus·Dec 3, 2019·4 votes·2,461 views

Now before you read this, i do not play ryze ever. However, I do lane against him every other game. He is so easy to counterplay. Just dont stand next to the wave, and play a champ that outranges him, he then becomes utterly useless. Also, i would rather see this attention towards other champs like , , or . But ya know, riot just gonna insta gib ryze because hes a champion for one patch. When these champs have been terrorizing solo queue for ages. Honorable Mentions:

62 Comments

BBKongDec 3, 201911 votes

"just play a champ that outranges him" isn't counterplay.

ExdeusDec 3, 20192 votes

{quoted}

"just play a champ that outranges him" isn't counterplay.

???

BBKongDec 3, 20196 votes

{quoted}

???

What? It's true. That's not what people mean when they talk about counterplay, that's counterpicking (or a form of it).

That's like saying "damage is too high assassins one-shot you before you can react, how do you counterplay it" and you say "that's so easy lol just play fizz and dodge the damage!"

If you can't see why that doesn't answer the question then I can't help you.

ExdeusDec 3, 20192 votes

{quoted}

What? It's true. That's not what people mean when they talk about counterplay, that's counterpicking (or a form of it).

That's like saying "damage is too high assassins one-shot you before you can react, how do you counterplay it" and you say "that's so easy lol just play fizz and dodge the damage!"

If you can't see why that doesn't answer the question then I can't help you.

there just exists a double standard with most of the community. Alot of champs done have much counterplay other than to counterpick. Just dont understand why ryze is getting so much attention. A example of this is Kassadin , a champ literally designed to be good into any AP champ and is counterplayed by AD assassins or adcs. I just dont understand why this is such a problematic opinion. Idk, maybe i am just a Twisted Fate abuser who just outroams ryze anyways.

The thigh guyDec 3, 20192 votes

{quoted}

"just play a champ that outranges him" isn't counterplay.

So why is that acceptable counterplay to every juggernaut ever?

ZackTheWaffleManDec 3, 20191 votes

it isn't. the counterplay to juggernauts is "don't let them get into melee range 4Head"

The thigh guyDec 3, 20192 votes

{quoted}

it isn't. the counterplay to juggernauts is "don't let them get into melee range 4Head"

Yup. So “out range them” is only counterplay if they are melee. Got it. Bias confirmed.

ﬂooDec 4, 20191 votes

"Out ranging" is a given advantage of being ranged over melee, it's not counterplay. In other words, you are automatically not getting into their range if your own range allows you to stay further away.

The thigh guyDec 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

"Out ranging" is a given advantage of being ranged over melee, it's not counterplay. In other words, you are automatically not getting into their range if your own range allows you to stay further away.

And yet “don’t let them get near you” ie “out range them” is the only counterplay to juggernauts.

2Charmnot2CharmDec 3, 20191 votes

Tbh even if you outrange ryze, nothing is stopping ryze from just killing you through your tank.

In that case not only do you need to out range ryze, but your range has to be big enough that you’re no where close to your tanks who are supposed to be able to protect you, yet still be able to pump out damage from that distance.

Very few champs have that range, but then you factor in that their damage are projectiles which will take even longer to have any impact (before ryze dodges with phase rush+ his own movespeed buff) instead of having on demand damage.

This is why its stupid af to look at everything in an vacuum and people that do this (like the OP) need to stop suggesting balance changes at all.

ExdeusDec 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Tbh even if you outrange ryze, nothing is stopping ryze from just killing you through your tank.

In that case not only do you need to out range ryze, but your range has to be big enough that you’re no where close to your tanks who are supposed to be able to protect you, yet still be able to pump out damage from that distance.

Very few champs have that range, but then you factor in that their damage are projectiles which will take even longer to have any impact (before ryze dodges with phase rush+ his own movespeed buff) instead of having on demand damage.

This is why its stupid af to look at everything in an vacuum and people that do this need to stop suggesting balance changes at all.

Veigar Xerath Zoe Syndra Orianna Malzahar Azir Ahri Kassadin Lux

ExdeusDec 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

maybe not Ahri but you get the idea

hazerddexDec 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

maybe not Ahri but you get the idea

Orianna has shorter range then Ryze last i checked.

Xerath top lane is a death sentence because of turret spacing and xerath's ludicrously slow movement speed. if you get ganked while your near the river your basically fubar if your up against a competent jungler.

Malzahar actually has pritty bad range your clearly thinking of his space aids that bounce off minions, but ryze again is TANKY and malz's space aids are easily avoidable.

Kassadin is basically perma banned in high elo so good luck actually getting him.

Syndra range is also pritty bad unless your counter her stun which has a long ass cooldown.

Veigar has a lot of cooldowns, but of the ones you listed hes the only one that has a snowballs chance (because he snowballs infinitely.)

Jinzo TorranceDec 4, 20191 votes

Malz completely shits on Ryze, his voildling can block his Q (all Ryze damage) and Ryze E has 615 range compared to Malz R of 700. Ryze gets completely dominated apart from early levels.

Same as Syndra, she just spams Q on his head all lane.

Jinzo TorranceDec 4, 20191 votes

It kinda is.

"Counterplay" today to bruisers is "Don't let get in range and CC melt them" and counterplay to all ADC is "Instakill them"

There's no counterplay to Darius other than having more range than his Apprehend and there's absolutely no counterplay to a Jinx other than 100-0 her before she starts lifestealing health back.

That's what current gameplay boils down too.

Hayaishi2Dec 3, 20195 votes

Yeah i gotta play another mage against him. Counterpicking isn't counterplay.

Ahri BakaDec 3, 20193 votes

He is op , including all the champions u mentioned except Rumble , actually Ryze is the most overpowered between them

ExdeusDec 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Baka,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6Qbjk2Zz,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-12-03T17:29:01.227+0000)

He is op , including all the champions u mentioned except Rumble , actually Ryze is the most overpowered between them

explain

Ahri BakaDec 3, 20191 votes

why

dont botherDec 3, 20192 votes

48% WR plat+ yes hes very op must nerf

SithesisLordDec 4, 20191 votes

In what world is a champion outscaling everyone in the game with just a Tear not OP?

dont botherDec 4, 20191 votes

tear is a scaling item which builds into an item with 50 ap and 1400 mana that synergises very well with ryze?

IllabetheDec 3, 20191 votes

You haven't met him with Conquerer yet. Self heals for 17% damage done in rapid succession while dealing 70-80% max HP damage per hit. Takes 3 champs, 1 grievous wounds, and 2 Flashes just to kill him because a lot of his spam is on target clicking, not skill shots.

ExdeusDec 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You haven't met him with Conquerer yet. Self heals for 17% damage done in rapid succession while dealing 70-80% max HP damage per hit. Takes 3 champs, 1 grievous wounds, and 2 Flashes just to kill him because a lot of his spam is on target clicking, not skill shots.

then nerf conquerer? I dont like this idea of a rune is broken, therefore the champion is.

IllabetheDec 3, 20191 votes

It's only doing this on specific champs after Postseason 10 change. No longer has True damage, but can store 8 seconds, so that an adc can use it. As a side effect, now spam mages like Ryze/Cass can now over self sustain.

Part of the fix might be a nerf, but the reality is Ryze's damage since Season 9 has always been scary, and almost unavoidable, unless you are Morgana, and negate the CC and some damage, set up CC, and rotate out so a teammate can kill him, or you have flash up.

dont botherDec 3, 20191 votes

conqueror is outclassed by phase rush and is a bad take on ryze, and to do damage ryze has to land his q which in fact is a "skill shot" but sure lets over exaggerate it a little.

IllabetheDec 4, 20191 votes

You really have no clue what you're talking about. Phase Rush was Season 9. Conquerer so far is Season 10.

And yes he has to hit things. Not like he can't E, and then spam skill shots. I can beat him but it's dangerous to do so.

dont botherDec 4, 20191 votes

Phase rush is still far superior as a main keystone for Ryze, stop over exaggerating conqueror on him, it may be good as a keystone but there are far superior runes Ryze can take that will benefit him more. I've been maining Ryze here and there for 2 years so I'm pretty sure i know more about what I'm talking about than you do.

IllabetheDec 4, 20191 votes

2 years don't matter when the change that broke the synergy occurred in the last 3 weeks :)

You really have no clue; there's actually a conquerer nerf on PBE right now that directly cites Ryze.

dont botherDec 4, 20191 votes

while conqueror may stack really fast on Ryze he loses out on the safety/speed (self peel from phase rush), cdr, and scaling from the gathering storm. There are other champions that utilizes conqueror way harder than ryze for example cassiopeia. I don't care how a ryze dominated your silver games just because you all sucked. A hardstuck silvers' clueless opinion who doesnt even play the champion doesnt matter i guess as well.

IllabetheDec 4, 20191 votes

Good. I'm glad he dominates Silver. I'm Diamond II.

dont botherDec 5, 20191 votes

^_^

BeatzBoyFTWDec 3, 20191 votes

Just dont stand next to the wave, and play a champ that outranges him, he then becomes utterly useless.

This is the poorest argument ever made. Maybe it'll work for someone at very low elo, but at other tiers, this is literally nothing. As others have said, this is not an example of counterplay.

Ryze is exceptionally strong for his machine-gun playstyle, and especially being an early lane abuser by spamming EQ whenever the opponent goes near his own minions (there's just never a point where you'll be able to not stand near them during the whole laning phase). In the mid-late game, he'll get to scale hard & has good map control with his ult.

ExdeusDec 3, 20192 votes

{quoted}

This is the poorest argument ever made. Maybe it'll work for someone at very low elo, but at other tiers, this is literally nothing. As others have said, this is not an example of counterplay.

Ryze is exceptionally strong for his machine-gun playstyle, and especially being an early lane abuser by spamming EQ whenever the opponent goes near his own minions. In the mid-late game, he'll get to scale hard & has good map control with his ult.

Again, feel like there is a double standard. Why arnt we complain about Caitlyn being broken then? She has incredibly high range, safe laning phase, good waveclear and can one shot you late game from a very high range. But yet we complain about ryze because we were stupid enough to get into his spell range (which isnt very high btw)

BeatzBoyFTWDec 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Again, feel like there is a double standard. Why arnt we complain about being broken then? She has incredibly high range, safe laning phase, good waveclear and can one shot you late game from a very high range. But yet we complain about ryze because we were stupid enough to get into his spell range (which isnt very high btw)

Cz she does not have a machine-gun playstyle, has a very telegraphic Q where it gives us the time to dodge unlike Ryze who can just double point & click us to death (not to mention her ult having a full 1 second time for us to counter back), and is more squishy than Ryze since she can't build anything defensive, unlike Ryze that builds Rod, Archangel & sometimes Frozen Heart.

You're basically comparing apples with orange with this.

ExdeusDec 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Cz she does not have a machine-gun playstyle, has a very telegraphic Q where it gives us the time to dodge unlike Ryze who can just double point & click us to death (not to mention her ult having a full 1 second time for us to counter back), and is more squishy than Ryze since she can't build anything defensive, unlike Ryze that builds Rod, Archangel & sometimes Frozen Heart.

U must not play in higher elos then. She absolutely does. Ive seen Caitlyn countless times buffer their headshot damage to get like 4 headshots at the same time one shotting 2 people in the process, all while being in a safe range

BeatzBoyFTWDec 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

U must not play in higher elos then. She absolutely does. Ive seen Caitlyn countless times buffer their headshot damage to get like 4 headshots at the same time one shotting 2 people in the process, all while being in a safe range

Sounds like the enemy being absolutely terrible playing against her. Even if you added in her AA+E+AA, enemies can still expect to dodge it off unlike the P&C Ryze's abilities contains.

ExdeusDec 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Sounds like the enemy being absolutely terrible playing against her. Even if you added in her AA+E+AA, enemies can still expect to dodge it off unlike the P&C Ryze's abilities contains.

Then is sounds like the enemy being terrible playing against ryze LOL i dont understand this arguement

BeatzBoyFTWDec 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Then is sounds like the enemy being terrible playing against ryze LOL i dont understand this arguement

This is exactly how we felt when you said "Just dont stand next to the wave, and play a champ that outranges him, he then becomes utterly useless". Funny how logic works, huh.

ExdeusDec 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

This is exactly how we felt when you said "Just dont stand next to the wave, and play a champ that outranges him, he then becomes utterly useless". Funny how logic works, huh.

Well its because i don't follow a double standard and believe that counterpicking and counterplay are the same thing. But to each their own i guess.

ExdeusDec 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Well its because i don't follow a double standard and believe that counterpicking and counterplay are the same thing. But to each their own i guess.

but i do agree that this form of "counterplay" probably isnt fun for most people, and i do understand that.

Zed geniusDec 3, 20191 votes

and play a champ that outranges him

Ah yes. I always wanted to pull out my Xerath top lane.

ExdeusDec 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zed genius,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6Qbjk2Zz,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2019-12-03T20:48:25.328+0000)

Ah yes. I always wanted to pull out my Xerath top lane.

im specifically talking about midlane, top lane is kinda a doomed lane at this point.

hazerddexDec 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

im specifically talking about midlane, top lane is kinda a doomed lane at this point.

but you see him more top then midlane sooooo

ExdeusDec 4, 20192 votes

{quoted}

but you see him more top then midlane sooooo

Thats actually statistically incorrect. He is picked midlane 4% more than toplane plat+.

HommeGoujonDec 3, 20191 votes

I thought counterplay was used for "in-game" situations, like when you're actually playing. Not at champ selection.

Ex: I was first pick and picked a melee champion, the enemy got Ryze and he's bullying me, what's the counterplay? You: "don't stand next to your wave and pick a ranged champion".

ExdeusDec 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I thought counterplay was used for "in-game" situations, like when you're actually playing. Not at champ selection.

Ex: I was first pick and picked a melee champion, the enemy got Ryze and he's bullying me, what's the counterplay? You: "don't stand next to your wave and pick a ranged champion".

Like ive said many times, IF this was the case. Why do we have a double standard? Champs like Kassadin are impossible to lane against unless you are playing an ad or adc. Even before these next nerfs. The counterplay to kass (at least in a 1v1 ) IS counterpicking. Im saying that, since i dont like to be a hypocrite, i think that counterpicking IS counterplay. But, im not claiming this to be "fun" for your average player.

SchenixDec 3, 20191 votes

He's unfun to lane into, difficult to match in split pushing later, and retains teamfight potential all at the same time while simultaneously being able to adapt his build without sacrificing anything significant, and flex roles.

Also, no, outranging him is neither counterplay nor is it accurate.That is an attempt at counterpicking, and Ryze's power does not solely lie in harassing the laner. His kit gives him massive control over waves, which a smart player exploits. Which therein lies an issue.

He is a champion that both needs extensive macro skills, and also needs solid micro and mechanics to pilot. Therefore there will always remain a huge disparity in his mains depending on elo, even if everyone who plays him by elo isn't efficient with him. It's also not really a champion people can pick up and perform on consistently. I play against Ryze on here into Gold and they run around spamming spells into the wave or trying to harass. I play into Ryze on Diamond and they still do that, but when they start actually managing the wave instead of focusing on mindless harass, it's going to turn into an annoying game.

Sometimes when you hand players too much power, they don't know what to do. This is also the case for Yasuo, Akali, Irelia, etc. Too much to manage, but the few players that continue learning it will be a menace.