Top lane sucks right now

bubthestud·Sep 1, 2019·4 votes·2,227 views

Can we please do something about ADC champs playing top all the time? I can't queue without fearing an ADC champ is gonna go top lane against me. I play Voli or Riven and I have to worry about a tristana or vayne who can just kite me unless they make a mistake. Basically I have to play amazing and they can half ass it. That's not counter play. I have no outplay ability on my own. Two things have to happen for me to do well in lane against a ranged champ. First they have to have a enter a coma and second they still have to be blind and then maybe I can have fun top lane. Please fix this. I am so sick of top lane ending like this.

15 Comments

MagicFlyingLlamaSep 1, 20192 votes

Top sucketh eternal

Cind3rkickSep 1, 20191 votes

Don't play top then?

You make it sound like a silver player could just pick vayne top and suddenly beat a diamond riven main.

Every champ has counterplay, you just gotta learn to exploit it.

ChiefDovahkinSep 1, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Don't play top then?

You make it sound like a silver player could just pick vayne top and suddenly beat a diamond riven main.

Every champ has counterplay, you just gotta learn to exploit it.

Some silver players could pick Vayne top and "suddenly" beat a diamond ranked player. Riven may be the exception as her 4 dashes are the single individual way to counter Vayne's 2 disengages. Think about picking Vayne into Garen, Darius, Pantheon, Renekton, Sion, Malphite, Poppy, etc. Her entire champion was designed to kite out fighters and tanks and she has full capability to do that at level 3, maybe it's even better that it's pre 6 because the fighters & tanks often pick up a big mobility/burst ability at 6. Even at 6 and beyond, Vayne has a 3 sec cd q and she just repositions on them. Very few champions will one shot a farmed Vayne who is equal level with them. All she has to do is r>q and you'll miss a portion of your damage with most of these champs and she's all of a sudden not reachable in the fight any longer.

And you're not comparing champs, you're comparing skill level. A silver player most likely has no idea how to kite and walk in between aas while a diamond riven is animation cancelling. You also chose THE single best top laner for most matchups in the game and that is straight statistical fact. She's also clearly the best option for engaging ranged besides Jax and aatrox.

This shit with adc tops is complete cheez, they're extremely low counterplay for what I would consider "healthy" gameplay. It ruins the entire game for multiple players, just like Viktor top did. Both top laners get to effectively do nothing, but farm back and forth to tower because Vayne has no engage and Vayne's opponent has no god forsaken chance of winning a trade or securing the kill into a push back, 3 seq short dashes, and near constant invisibility at 6. Especially when they mostly go ignite because everyone knows cheez players aren't good enough to win with tp.

Just for picking Vayne the one player has almost complete lane control and map pressure due to constant lane priority. Very few jungs will have strong ganks into her and she has a lot of herald pressure even solo.

The fact is Vayne doesn't even need true damage to win all of these match ups bc she was just designed to destroy melees in a 1v1. Without having the chance to counterpick her with aatrox, this is a largely unbeatable lane and most junglers will not be able to continually gank for her since again, as she walks with the wave she has a guaranteed 3 sec q cd. The thing that really grosses me out is a melee has to play perfectly to not get annhilated by her, but Vayne just fishes for autos for 20 minutes and wins the game. Ridiculous that this has been allowed for so long.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 1, 20191 votes

If you're playing Riven or Voli and having trouble with them...I'm not sure how to help you.

As Voli, just run them down. You move faster than them, out-damage them, and out-tank them. Just fucking right-click at them.

As Riven, learn her combos. You shouldn't be struggling against them.

JackMcCarrySep 1, 20191 votes

Quinn 2% pickrate, 52% winrate. Vayne 1.7% pickrate, 48% winrate. Tristana 0.6% pickrate, 47% winrate. To put that into perspective, you'd have more than double the chance of seeing JUST darius than all 3 of those adc's combined.

They are the defenition of win (more like annoy) lane, lose game. They offer 0 frontline, CC, utility or any team support, their only hopes of winning is snowballing so far out of control no one can deal with them, and that requires a player who feeds them hard enough in the first place.

Everytime im against a Vayne top it's the same shtick, play reserved, all in when they slip, wait for gank, watch enemy ranged laner start shit talking in all chat.

Even if you have a hard time into them, they are not common picks by any means like you say they are, in your last 20+ games you faced 1 ranged toplaner, which was Kennen.

ChiefDovahkinSep 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

2% pickrate, 52% winrate. 1.7% pickrate, 48% winrate. 0.6% pickrate, 47% winrate. To put that into perspective, you'd have more than double the chance of seeing JUST darius than all 3 of those adc's combined.

They are the defenition of win (more like annoy) lane, lose game. They offer 0 frontline, CC, utility or any team support, their only hopes of winning is snowballing so far out of control no one can deal with them, and that requires a player who feeds them hard enough in the first place.

Everytime im against a Vayne top it's the same shtick, play reserved, all in when they slip, wait for gank, watch enemy ranged laner start shit talking in all chat.

Even if you have a hard time into them, they are not common picks by any means like you say they are, in your last 20+ games you faced 1 ranged toplaner, which was Kennen.

What matters is it completely ruins the lane experience. It's harshly imbalanced through the first 15 minutes of gameplay and VERY few junglers can do anything about it. With basic gold level skills this is complete cheez and almost anyone could climb with it. It shuts a whole side of the map down and tilts the crap out of the enemy player while denying him harsly.

JackMcCarrySep 1, 20191 votes

What matters is it completely ruins the lane experience.

No, it doesnt matter, because many picks ruin "the lane experience" depending on your champ, not to mention laning phase is only 1 part of the game. Also, subjective, Darius/Morde ruin my toplane experience, i would prefer fighting a Vayne over them almost into any pick because i know that 1 slip up from Vayne and i'll 1 shot her whenever she gets in my range.

It's harshly imbalanced through the first 15 minutes of gameplay and VERY few junglers can do anything about it

What ELO are you that a Jungler cant gank a lone marksmen in top?

tilts the crap out of the enemy player while denying him harsly.

Again, subjective, you're giving me your opinions (which are valid) and im giving numbers. OP complains he cant queue top without the fear of facing a marksmen, i proved him that not only 2/3 of those marksmen picks weak, but you'd have double the chance of just facing Darius, than all 3 of them combined.

ChiefDovahkinSep 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

No, it doesnt matter, because many picks ruin "the lane experience" depending on your champ, not to mention laning phase is only 1 part of the game. Also, subjective, Darius/Morde ruin my toplane experience, i would prefer fighting a Vayne over them almost into any pick because i know that 1 slip up from Vayne and i'll 1 shot her whenever she gets in my range.

What ELO are you that a Jungler cant gank a lone marksmen in top?

Again, subjective, you're giving me your opinions (which are valid) and im giving numbers. OP complains he cant queue top without the fear of facing a marksmen, i proved him that not only 2/3 of those marksmen picks weak, but you'd have double the chance of just facing Darius, than all 3 of them combined.

Many is an exaggeration. Darius and Mordekaiser are both pretty balanced after their most recent changes. In fact, I'm willing to bet a lot of people could argue Morde could use a late game buff.

It's not nearly as subjective as you're trying to make it. It's a matter of available counterplay and what that counterplay is. Against Vayne, most champs have to hide under their tower until mid game. It's no different than like Yi into Jax. Jax will punish him if he doesn't play safe. The issue is, Vayne and other ranged tops, do this to most of their matchups and basically just turn off that side of the map.

If you prefer fighting a Vayne then you've never faced an even remotely good one. Vayne has always been a bane of the community much like Akali. Again, her kit allows her to harshly bully melees. If you haven't done/experienced this, then idk why you're getting involved with this guy's post. It's not new and there are other champs that do it similarly.

I'm Platinum hbu? Vayne has a 3 sec dash at level 1 when walking with the wave. And she'll just condemn one of you away. No single champ has the damage to burst her pre 6 so most junglers won't even gank her unless she pushes way up. Which, with proper wave management, can be avoided.

Again, not subjective, you just want it to be for some reason. Early cheezing someone, bullying them in lane, denying them cs, and repeat killing will lead to tilting and making someone play worse. It's part of the game whether you think it's an opinion or not.

The stats you clipped don't really prove much. You may have the playrates of the 2 champs he cites (and quinn), but there's another handful that have a similar abuse pattern and much higher play rates. And trust me, there is a constant fear of fighting a ranged champ. That's why most of the meta stays mobile like Riven and Jax. Every time a Darius player locks Darius 1st, he runs a huge risk of being useless all game into a list of ranged tops.

Your right, Darius does get picked significantly more than those 3 combined. However, his winrate barely ever breaks 50% even though he's this extremely strong lane bullying resetting healing 1/2 his hp while on the brink of death champion (sarcasm). The fact is he's pretty balanced having little cc and an engage tool on a long cd. Not to mention he's really just too squishy to close out games solo. He's picked even more than Aatrox who in a lot of ways is a better version of Darius. Vayne's just all around better at playing top lane.

JackMcCarrySep 1, 20191 votes

Many is an exaggeration. Darius and Mordekaiser are both pretty balanced after their most recent changes. In fact, I'm willing to bet a lot of people could argue Morde could use a late game buff.

You mean the same morde who is at the top of the toplaner picks from the patch he was reworked? Darius who is also an S+ pick for forever now? yea, they are not Riven or Jax, but they arent weak and when they counter you, they HARD counter you.

No single champ has the damage to burst her pre 6 so most junglers won't even gank her unless she pushes way up. Which, with proper wave management, can be avoided.

What kind of logic is that? If no champion can burst her pre-6, a freaking VAYNE! then NO champion is gankgable, unless you are gonna tell me Vayne is also tankier than melee champions. You realise that a jungler wont gank your lane ONLY if you can solo burst your enemy right? Im pretty sure throwing vayne into a 2v1 will shift the powers.

Again, not subjective, you just want it to be for some reason. Early cheezing someone, bullying them in lane, denying them cs, and repeat killing will lead to tilting and making someone play worse. It's part of the game whether you think it's an opinion or not.

Cheesing someone is tilting, the subjective part is what people are getting tilted by, i've had games where i literally just sat under turret as Pantheon to avoid fights against a morde, and he got tilted, BM in all chat and just started diving me and feeding me. I've had games where people are tilted because i Q them with GP, i've had games where people tilt because with 1 pull i shove them out of lane with Darius with passive + ignite. THATS subjective, everyone are tilted by different things, and just like you're mad that Vayne is zoning you when you're Darius, some Nasus player is fuming he cant get close to a minion because Darius is zoning him from his stacks, you just dont like when the shoe's on the other foot.

Your right, Darius does get picked significantly more than those 3 combined. However, his winrate barely ever breaks 50% even though he's this extremely strong lane bullying resetting healing 1/2 his hp while on the brink of death champion (.sarcasm)

His winrate is 51.4% winrate, 9.5% pickrate,, if you dont see how he's miles better as a whole than Vayne and Tristana top, then i dont know how else to talk to your logic, the fact he has double the pickrate of 3!!! of the marksmen top combined, and still has higher winrate than 2 of those is more than enough to show you who ACTUALLY is the better pick top, No, annoying you in a matchup doesnt make you a better pick, it just makes you an annoying pick, and Vayne/Tristana ARE annoying, i will not deny or defend that, but they dont need nerfs (around their toplane presence).

The fact is he's pretty balanced having little cc and an engage tool on a long cd. Not to mention he's really just too squishy to close out games solo.

Literally everything you said here can be said for vayne too, only vayne has about 1/6th of his pickrate, and has 48% winrate, oh but she's ranged, so gutt her i guess.

ChiefDovahkinSep 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You mean the same morde who is at the top of the toplaner picks from the patch he was reworked? Darius who is also an S+ pick for forever now? yea, they are not Riven or Jax, but they arent weak and when they counter you, they HARD counter you.

Yes the same Morde who gets kited by literally everyone and has to get fed in lane to make a difference. The same Morde who does not landslide win against any lane bullies top. Just because you get slapped by him doesn't make him opop. Also, "S+ tier" is an entirely meaningless term more dependent on playrate than anything else. Some sites will call champs S+ with under 50% winrates (Riven commonly).

What kind of logic is that? If no champion can burst her pre-6, a freaking VAYNE! then NO champion is gankgable, unless you are gonna tell me Vayne is also tankier than melee champions. You realise that a jungler wont gank your lane ONLY if you can solo burst your enemy right? Im pretty sure throwing vayne into a 2v1 will shift the powers.

Are you really saying champs should be capable of one shot bursting pre 6? That makes completely zero sense. And why would a jungler gank you and rely on you to do 100% of the damage? Do you play with a Nunu who misses his snowball every game? That basically means assassin jungles are useless. Lol I guess J4/Reksai/Elise don't do any damage early game?

Cheesing someone is tilting, the subjective part is what people are getting tilted by, i've had games where i literally just sat under turret as Pantheon to avoid fights against a morde, and he got tilted, BM in all chat and just started diving me and feeding me. I've had games where people are tilted because i Q them with GP, i've had games where people tilt because with 1 pull i shove them out of lane with Darius with passive + ignite. THATS subjective, everyone are tilted by different things, and just like you're mad that Vayne is zoning you when you're Darius, some Nasus player is fuming he cant get close to a minion because Darius is zoning him from his stacks, you just dont like when the shoe's on the other foot.

You completely changed the point of what we were talking about. This is a largely meaningless tangent.

His winrate is 51.4% winrate, 9.5% pickrate,, if you dont see how he's miles better as a whole than Vayne and Tristana top, then i dont know how else to talk to your logic, the fact he has double the pickrate of 3!!! of the marksmen top combined, and still has higher winrate than 2 of those is more than enough to show you who ACTUALLY is the better pick top, No, annoying you in a matchup doesnt make you a better pick, it just makes you an annoying pick, and Vayne/Tristana ARE annoying, i will not deny or defend that, but they dont need nerfs (around their toplane presence).

There is not a single other website to be found with a winrate on Darius that high. Is that Gold and below or something? He doesn't even hit 51% in Korea while having a similar playrate. I never said Darius was a worse champ. He's largely better and more impactful thorughout the game, but that has nothing to do with the fact that a Vayne would completely shut him down in lane and make him useless. Vayne still beats more matchups and harder. The fact that she will rarely solo carry games translates to the statistical differences. This whole post was about Vayne being a borderline unbeatable oppressive cancerous thing to face top and that's still true. Even if you tihnk Darius is strong, he still has clear exploitable weaknesses throughout the game, unlike adcs top.

Literally everything you said here can be said for vayne too, only vayne has about 1/6th of his pickrate, and has 48% winrate, oh but she's ranged, so gutt her i guess.

Vayne is an adc that runs people down and smacks them with damage. She has constant ms buffs towards enemies and during her ult, near constant invis, she has plenty of engage for a marksman and more disengage than is typical. Darius is extremely different and plays an entirely different role. You say don't nerf her due to top, but it's more about giving melees a way to deal with the marksman abuse. It's a whole class problem and it branches to champs like Neeko and Viktor too.

JackMcCarrySep 2, 20192 votes

You say don't nerf her due to top, but it's more about giving melees a way to deal with the marksman abuse. It's a whole class problem and it branches to champs like Neeko and Viktor too.

Read your entire post, only gonna reply to that because that's the most relevent one. And i totally agree with you, melee champs need a starting item that will help them survive versus long range match ups - IN LANE, something like doran's shield but better against ranged.

ChiefDovahkinSep 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Read your entire post, only gonna reply to that because that's the most relevent one. And i totally agree with you, melee champs need a starting item that will help them survive versus long range match ups - IN LANE, something like doran's shield but better against ranged.

Old D shield used to do this! It reduced flat damage per auto! It got nerfed because champs who already have defensive abilities (Jax/Riven oo them again?) were extremely tanky in the early 1v1. Maybe chrysalis or boneplat could be changed to this? @riot

musixxalSep 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

2% pickrate, 52% winrate. 1.7% pickrate, 48% winrate. 0.6% pickrate, 47% winrate. To put that into perspective, you'd have more than double the chance of seeing JUST darius than all 3 of those adc's combined.

They are the defenition of win (more like annoy) lane, lose game. They offer 0 frontline, CC, utility or any team support, their only hopes of winning is snowballing so far out of control no one can deal with them, and that requires a player who feeds them hard enough in the first place.

Everytime im against a Vayne top it's the same shtick, play reserved, all in when they slip, wait for gank, watch enemy ranged laner start shit talking in all chat.

Even if you have a hard time into them, they are not common picks by any means like you say they are, in your last 20+ games you faced 1 ranged toplaner, which was Kennen.

but even seeing darius or vlad isn't fun, so adding to the mix that any of the mentioned here can be found there too isn't pleasing news no matter how rare.

JackMcCarrySep 3, 20191 votes

If you hate most of toplane's picks except for a very few specific match ups, then maybe toplane isnt for you? Darius and Vlad have been toplaners pretty much for their entire league's duration.

musixxalSep 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

If you hate most of toplane's picks except for a very few specific match ups, then maybe toplane isnt for you? Darius and Vlad have been toplaners pretty much for their entire league's duration.

i've played top lane for 8 fucking seasons i don't care what you have to say about the lane i likely know more about it than you do. i was playing the lane before darius even came out, he's fucking cancer but whatever we tolerate him now there are worse things. i've seen how it's changed over the years with the remakes and the new draftiing system and role select and the proliferation of teleport metahumpers who don't even know how to use teleport. it isn't a fun lane, i just play what i want to play there because i can play whatever i want to play there. if i want to play top lane kata then i'll play top lane kata.