Karthus Wall of Pain Nerf

SwiftExE··58 votes·4,933 views

Hello all!

I'm a long time Karthus player, and he's my most played champ by far. When I read the patch notes of the most recent patch, I was dismayed, but I didn't think it would affect Karthus too much in game. After playing a few games with him, I have to say that the nerf actually affected him quite significantly (moreso in laning phase than late game, but still noticeable then as well).

For those of you that don't know the nerf, Wall of pain's "slow drops to half effectiveness after 1 second". While this may not seem like a huge change, it essentially makes Karthus' laning phase even harder than it was before. Karthus only takes 1 point in his wall early on too, meaning that the slow will essentially be nonexistent after 1 second. Karthus now has a much harder time calling in jungle ganks without any "real" form of CC anymore (the slow is nonexistent, try it in a custom). If you're up against an aggressive mid laner, wall doesn't really discourage them from diving you either.

Karthus as a champion has always followed the motto of "go neutral in lane, win late game". Nerfing the wall has made going neutral in lane even harder than it was before. It said in the patch notes that this nerf was also based upon allowing players to have an easier time dodging Karthus' Qs. Honestly, I can say with 100% certainty that good players who were slowed by Karthus' pre-nerf Wall of Pain managed to dodge his lay wastes quite effectively (they just had to move in unpredictable ways). The new deathfire mastery may have also contributed to him being nerfed, but with that mastery getting nerfed in the same patch, Karthus has been hurt in two ways now.

In summation, this Karthus change was not needed. Karthus isn't certainly doing poorly in this meta, but he's also definitely one of the top played mid laners (I'm looking at you Brand). The nerf just seems so arbitrary, just like the last Karthus nerf I can remember (a .10 AP ratio nerf on his E, which may be the only other change to Karthus in the past 3 years). I strongly urge you to either revert this change, or at least allow more time before the slow's speed decays to half.

TLDR: Unneeded Karthus nerf. Hurts him in all parts of the game. Arbitrary change in a meta where Karthus isn't at the top.

Thank you for reading!

32 Comments

commit an hero40 votes

I mean I don't understand Riot's logic when it comes to nerfs sometimes.

Brand was doing pretty well because of DFT and games just ending fairly early. He gets a 10 extra mana love tap on his W.

Karthus suddenly sees a bit more play and BOOM a fairly huge utility nerf on his W. I will agree he was strong but if you look at his winrate over the past two patches it's gone down a solid 3%.

Brand's winrate mid went down really because of the buff to TLD and the precision change benefiting assassins even more.

tl;dr Rito's logic of nerfs makes me scratch my head sometimes.

SwiftExE17 votes

I didn't know about the 3% drop in win rate, so thank you for sharing! Karthus was honestly in a good spot before this wall nerf, and I certainly hope he'll return to it soon.

Talon121 votes

the logic of "well that was op, lets nerf it so its useless. Oh look, thunderlords is weak on ad and strong on ap, lets nerf ap and buff ad. Now all those ad people take thunderlords... we have to nerf it to 10% ad from 30%"

Yma S3 votes

{quoted}

I mean I don't understand Riot's logic when it comes to nerfs sometimes.

Brand was doing pretty well because of DFT and games just ending fairly early. He gets a 10 extra mana love tap on his W.

Karthus suddenly sees a bit more play and BOOM a fairly huge utility nerf on his W. I will agree he was strong but if you look at his winrate over the past two patches it's gone down a solid 3%.

Brand's winrate mid went down really because of the buff to TLD and the precision change benefiting assassins even more.

tl;dr Rito's logic of nerfs makes me scratch my head sometimes.

it was 20 mana nerf, which isn't a "lovetap" especially on his waveclear spell, and especially on a champion who can't itemize for mana unless he wants to lose damage and be garbage

and it was targeted at brand support (who can itemize for mana), yet fucks brand mid players like me

Riot is completely full of shit

Arch Mage Magnus17 votes

In short, Riot has NO clue how to balance this game. You see it time and time again....an item causes a champ to excel just a little too much. Riot then nerfs the champs that were affected, and then nerfs the item next. This basically makes all those champs even more useless to what they were in the season prior.

Paladin 0f Life1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arch Mage Magnus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5l6U6yKI,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-12-14T04:17:27.922+0000)

In short, Riot has NO clue how to balance this game. You see it time and time again....an item causes a champ to excel just a little too much. Riot then nerfs the champs that were affected, and then nerfs the item next. This basically makes all those champs even more useless to what they were in the season prior.

#tiamat #anyAP

Dreamspitter1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arch Mage Magnus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5l6U6yKI,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-12-14T04:17:27.922+0000)

In short, Riot has NO clue how to balance this game. You see it time and time again....an item causes a champ to excel just a little too much. Riot then nerfs the champs that were affected, and then nerfs the item next. This basically makes all those champs even more useless to what they were in the season prior.

So what happened to Sejuani?

IcyPepper1 votes

Yeah, basically. She, as they put it, had her time in the spotlight.

Meanwhile... nah, not even going to bother. I'll just come across as a salty whiner :/ It's clear they have a bit of favoritism, and that little spotlight comment pissed Sejuani mains off because it's obvious she got double-nerfed then not really looked at afterwards because she's not hypermobile and/or really flashy (although her five-man ult is pretty damn boss).

MAN OF INTELLECT17 votes

To add: Karthus has been slowly nerfed by a slew of new champions that have invulnerabilities that can dodge Karthus's ult AND/OR provide invulnerability to their teammates:

Bard TahmKench Kalista Kindred Ekko

And of course, the age-old classic counter item 3157

PalPlays1 votes

Don't forget the good Rek'Sai players out there. I can't tell you how many times I've escaped danger with her ult.

FistOfSharkiesha13 votes

Karthus was already a niche pick that was countered by 90% of mid laners. You basically picked him into Morgana and nobody picked her anyways. Now it's even worse. Level 2 first blood given to Fizz/Yasuo/Akali/Annie/etc etc and the moment you come back to lane you're food again. Having no burst, no mobility, and no hard CC is a death sentence in mid lane. Now they made it even worse.

ahferroin73 votes

He's also good against: Annie (he outranges everything she has) Yasuo (everything except his AA's goes past the wind wall, his passive absolutely screws Yasuo when Karrthus gets ulted, and a good Karrthus player can easily zone out Yasuo) Gragas (Similar reasons to him being good against Morgana) Heimerdinger (His Q can oneshot Heims turrets from beyond their range) Lulu Teemo Zilean Sona Lissandra Gallio (Karth can outscale Gallio relatively easily) Varus

Yes, most of them are themselves uncommon picks (except Yas of course), but Karth is still picked even against other people. The usual strategy with him is not to win lane, but to be game changing in mid to late game.

Omiwom5 votes

Couldn't agree more. His wall was the only thing dissuading mid laners with enough burst to kill him from just rolling over him because of the threat of getting slowed under his tower.

Another reason the decay hurts him: it becomes tougher to land Qs on a target who's movespeed is changing up. I grew used to the constant slow that Wall of Pain provided. Now I have to predict that burst of speed my opponent gets when the slow decays.

And let's be honest here, if Karthus doesn't have his wall or a Rylai's, it's very difficult to hit successive Qs on targets with boots, especially on these increasingly mobile champs Riot keeps cooking up Kalista Ahri Leblanc Kindred Yasuo

NineTailedMystic3 votes

I mean, LB was put out in 2010, and Ahri 2011. At least 90% of Ahri's mobility is tied to her ult, as well as Kindred's tiny little hop being held to a 9 sec static CD unless she uses it in W. No one likes Yas or Kalista though.

Retillin1 votes

You do know Ahri has a speed boost on her Q right? Rather large as well.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

{quoted}

90% of Ahri's mobility is tied to her ult

SwiftExE5 votes

I'm not exaggerating that as it stands right now, a wall placed at max range won't allow Karthus enough time to even get within Q range of the enemy (if they're running away of course).

RipReviveFkRito4 votes

100% agreed item 3070 Karthus

OneTrickBarrel2 votes

Yet they buff obnoxious and irritating champions like Leblanc making it even more of a hell to lane against. (check latest PBE changes on E plus the buff on her w speed).

Saianna2 votes

Unfortunately Karthus playerbase isn't as strong as even 10th of Lees fanbase, thus I wouldn't expect anything else than further nerfs "to balance him properly".

ahferroin71 votes

I think what you mean is not as vocal...

Nikoyopu2 votes

I have to agree. If an indirect nerf is enough to bring a champion in line (and it usually is) then why in the name of god would you nerf the champion? For all intents and purposes these champs are doubly nerfed. In addition since competitive hasn't started yet nerfing champs in weird ways like this (they did a similar thing to Swain's W which has made kiting on him much harder) is really questionable.

MagicalDemons2 votes

the 2% of people who play him would be sad he's gettin a nerd tho

OneTrickBarrel1 votes

And yet they buff Leblancs E speed so its easier to hit like she weak right know and in need of buffss....loolol

Maximum Morde1 votes

I didn't even feel the nerf. Rylais is life. Rush it every game and you won't feel the nerf either.

ahferroin71 votes

Lol, I get yelled at sometimes for building it, then I get a pentakill or feed one to our carry, and people stop complaining.

Robert Smith1 votes

To be honest this might be a sign that they are doing an immobile mage change after pre-season. Karthus is the first that comes to my mind along with Malz. But unlike space aids Karthus' kit does not interact with itself well. I always felt that his E should do more if you Q someone. This nerf might be a window as to what he might be like in the future, hopefully he will be like Garen, or Darius with a somewhat passive change to the kit and not Morde and Skarner level change.

ahferroin71 votes

While I feel your pain (no pun intended), I would like to point out that it's pretty easy against a lot of people to land the wall right on top of them.

On that note, I wholeheartedly agree with the bit about people dodging Lay Waste. They're nerfing him to accomodate people who don't understand how to play, which goes in direct opposition to the obvious policy they have of not doing that (I'm looking at you Lee Sin, Riven, every assassin in the game, Katarina, Yasuo, Thresh, and a bunch of other champs that so many people don't seem to understand how to properly play against).

Yordle Xayah1 votes

He was OP, had to nerf **RIGHT AWAY **like Swain

This guy on the other hand is very well balanced 100% Brand

Keitron1 votes

Agreed i notice the change and its harsh to get you're Q item 3116 going. Hes also one of the lowest picked champions and he went from 52% to 49% thanks riot.

Joe Dredd1 votes

because he's supposed to not roll everyone and everything early?

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