Can we address the issue with lethality assassins (Zed, Talon, etc)

ovocherad·Feb 7, 2018·3 votes·1,411 views

I am a hardcore Zed and Talon main, and I took a break from League for a while and decided to return. I heard about the whole lethality nerf from 20 to 18 and I didn't think much of it at the time thinking it wouldn't make much of a difference. However, after playing many games with Talon and Zed this is just bullshit. I don't know if it was the lethality nerf or another nerf I missed but the assassins are just stupidly weak, please please buff them in some way because I only do good with them due to experience but they are just trash right now...

46 Comments

KaiokoFeb 7, 20185 votes

Between the damage you get from electrocute and the extra lethality from dashing -- the nerf was perfectly justifiable.

MysticDreams12Feb 7, 20184 votes

Well, I'm not bronze but I think it's stupid.

Zed is still bat shit strong, even if he doesn't have a good winrate. Also, on the PBE notes it looks like Rickless Abandon is giving him a buff on his ult CD which blows my mind because he already has a low ult CD with 40%CDR.

I played against one of them the other day. Go ahead, look my match up, it was one of my Morgana games. He had over 20 kills, mostly cause he abused the Jinx-Shen bot but still. It was hell to play against.

The lethality nerf is not that big of a deal especially when the AD side abuses Duskblade so god damn well.

ZedUsanGovosFeb 7, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Well, I'm not bronze but I think it's stupid.

Zed is still bat shit strong, even if he doesn't have a good winrate. Also, on the PBE notes it looks like Rickless Abandon is giving him a buff on his ult CD which blows my mind because he already has a low ult CD with 40%CDR.

I played against one of them the other day. Go ahead, look my match up, it was one of my Morgana games. He had over 20 kills, mostly cause he abused the Jinx-Shen bot but still. It was hell to play against.

The lethality nerf is not that big of a deal especially when the AD side abuses Duskblade so god damn well.

They aren't abusing DBlade. They're using it as intended. But Riot overtuned it, so that it does more than it should. Zed and Talon are incredibly weak. Stopwatch fucks them early game, there's a whole lack of 20 or so Lethality from S7, and the Ult Cooldown reduction isn't even that bad. If one of the two get fed off your botlane, that's not their problem. That doesn't make them strong.

MysticDreams12Feb 7, 20184 votes

Nope. They are abusing it.

Zed is extremely strong, Talon strong but more manageable to play against. Not everyone takes stopwatch, and a whole 20 AD lost?! Why don't you look at all the AP we lost since the s5 or whatever season marksmen update? We've probably lost over a 100 by now. So stop complaining about that when AP has it worse.

And yes, when Zed can abuse the bot lane matchup, he gets even stronger cause Riot decided to slap a buff on him to where he gets more AD from the people he kills. -.-

He's strong as hell, and even if you think I'm biased cause I hate him, it doesn't change the facts.

Edge of DaybreakFeb 7, 20184 votes

You can't abuse something specifically designed for you to use that logic makes 0 sense.

Zed and Talon already have large buffs on pbe specifically because they are too weak right now... Meanwhile mages are so strong that we see multiple mages being nerfed every patch like come on people.

You do realize that zed gained more ad from his old w without having to kill anyone right?

Well you are obviously biased that part is the only thing right about that post.

MysticDreams12Feb 7, 20183 votes

Nope.

He's getting buffed because Riot is AD biased, nothing else.

None of them are weak.

JegonnFeb 7, 20185 votes

I'm glad silvers aren't in charge of balancing the game, you mainly play lux you're so obviously biased in this argument and just whining about assassins like everyone else on these boards. You need to understand what the assassin class is meant to do and if they aren't as strong as they're intended to be they will get buffs just like when midlane mages need some extra help and things Riot will oblige you. item 2420 item 3157 item 1029 item 3047 summoner 3 summoner 21 summoner 7 item 3191 item 3027

MysticDreams12Feb 7, 20183 votes

Really? How rude.

I play Lux because right now she's the safest champ for me to play since the preseason changes and loss of defensive runes and masteries.

Reported.

JegonnFeb 7, 20184 votes

Oh man woe is me I disagreed with your opinion and stated my own. I'm so rude for doing exactly the boards are here for. Discussion. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

MysticDreams12Feb 7, 20183 votes

You can discuss with people without telling them to stop being a crybaby and attacking them for who they play and telling them to "learn to play the game". Everyone has their main, I play Lux a lot. Who cares? I'm sure you have your favorite so don't be like that to me. I also know how to play the game pretty well. If you are going to still be rude, I will report and ignore you.

JegonnFeb 7, 20184 votes

I never insulted you, I never attacked you, I simply stated my opinion on silver players not being on the balance team and you said riot is AD biased meanwhile I'm not allowed to say you're biased when you play mid lane immobile mages that are supposed to be countered by mid lane assassins??? Your own logic is flawed I'm not sure why you think you're above the law here.

MysticDreams12Feb 7, 20183 votes

Can you read? You told me stop stop whining, to learn how to play the game, and attacked me for playing Lux. That's all rude and insulting.

Assassins are and should not be the counters to mages in my opinion. Anyway, I'm not biased because I'm a mage player. I'm ok with most AD champs. I just hate Zed with all the fibers in my being because of his stupid ass kit and frustrates me to hell.

Moving on. Riot has shown over and over again how they are biased against AP. I've seen it and it takes a while to look it up but from my own view, I've seen them give love taps to the AD side while constantly nerfing AP into the ground. When it's time for the AD update, they give them a ton of cool stuff on top of great defensive items and stats, while we loose AP and get a shit ton of CDR to compensate. I saw it when all the Zed mains were complaining about Zhonyas, they nerfed it for that sole reason.

My logic isn't flawed. I may be passionate but I'm not stupid.

JegonnFeb 7, 20184 votes

Telling someone to educate themselves and to stop whining is not an attack lmao. I only brought up the fact that you play mid lane mages such as lux which inherently makes you biased against assassins because they counter the champions you play. Riot is not biased against AP, you should back it up because it's just your opinion when you don't have any evidence to support it.

MysticDreams12Feb 7, 20184 votes

I am educated, and yes you are being rude and offensive so you get a report.

No, it doesn't make me biased. Like I said, I'm fine with most champs. What I don't like is Zed, and AD itemization being better.

Do you really want me to spend a ton of time looking everything up? Cause it's a lot. Anyway, I think I found where that lovetap nerf was when people were constantly complaining about him, patch 6.7- he got:

Cooldown increased to 22 / 20 / 18 / 16 / 14 seconds from 18 / 17 / 16 / 15 / 14. Extra bonus AD reduced to 4 / 8 / 12 / 16 / 20% bonus AD from 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25% bonus AD.

Which was bogus because people were not complaining about his stupid W, but about his ult and his extreme high reward no risk.

While it's been so long I can't remember who were the biggest ones hit with a nerf bat around that time, in the same patch, Soraka was hit heavily with mana costs increases: Starcall Starcall Mana cost increased to 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60 from 40 at all ranks. Astral Infusion Astral Infusion Mana cost increased to 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 from 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60.

I found info on http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/V6.7.

It can take time but I know there are other examples out there, but this is just one to hopefully satisfy you with "evidence."

JegonnFeb 7, 20184 votes

I don't know how you think a 4 second difference in level 1 Zed W cooldown is a love tap nerf, his W is his bread and butter for Zed to do anything at all, it's how he trades and escapes and is essential to him so making it take 4 seconds longer for it to come off of CD was not a love tap nerf at all, most Zed mains were very very disappointed and if you take a look at how many nerfs Zed has gotten since his release you would assume Riot hates Zed but even Riot states that Zed is what the optimal assassin is and his current state is completely and perfectly balanced and they want to make other assassins fit the role just like him right now.

MysticDreams12Feb 7, 20183 votes

I think it's a love tap, on top of that I saw all the people's complaints about the nerf at the time as well. Very small compared to what I've seen them do to AP champs.

I know Zed isn't their pet, that title goes to Lee Sin. I'm just trying to show how they barely nerf AD but nerf AP so much more then them.

Totally Not JinxFeb 8, 20181 votes

Hello there! I've edited out part of your comment as it did not fit in with the Universal Rules; Namely, some statements were disrespectful. If you have questions, feel free to talk to us in the The Boards Moderation Discord or the Discuss the Boards sub-board.

Edge of DaybreakFeb 7, 20184 votes

How are they ad biased when mages crush ad mids into the ground? None of them are weak? Are you related to Alex Jones?

MysticDreams12Feb 7, 20183 votes

I don't even know who Alex Jones is.

Read my above comment. Not all mages crush them.

Edge of DaybreakFeb 7, 20184 votes

Here are my issues with your views on bias. You claim riot love taps AD but nerfing ap into the ground which is a powerful claim to make considering statistics have proven this wrong for years. Since i'm going to only discuss the state of AD mids vs AP mids because I think the state of ADC's is bs right now but it's an issue that affects ap and ad mids alike. Why would riot be hard nerfing AD mids who are the weaker class of midlaner?

Are you expecting any large nerfs to a class that is already struggling because that isn't going to happen. Also the reason AP is nerfed so much is because they are still dominating with no opposition due to how strong they are no matter how many nerfs they receive. When pros are actually saying that picking an AD mid is trolling you know there is a problem and for the first time since release Riot is giving talon a buff. it's not even a small buff he's getting over 130 more damage on his AOE ult.

Not all ap mids are crushing. Yes this is true some are not great right now while others have a chokehold on the lane. In contrast 0 ad mids are doing well. When you look at who wins mid it's all AP champions and mostly just mages.

Bias would be riot nerfing ap mids when ad mids were already winning. This has never been the case in the history of league. AD mids were on top was patch 7.2 with the release of new duskblade. They were nerfed literally next patch. That's what bias looks like. One class rules for years but the moment another surpasses them instantly taken down.

Riot nerfed zhonyas because it was a must buy vs every matchup ap and ad. Since you say you play lux I know you have suffered getting your ult hit with zhonyas more times than you can count. Now imagine being melee and squishy having to deal with zhonyas.

Zed players were complaining about QSS. Everyone has some grip with zhonyas.

MysticDreams12Feb 7, 20182 votes

I already gave an example proving my claim. Read above.

Statistics haven't proven it wrong. Haven't seen that anywhere.

AP is better because they have better late game and teamwork. AD doesn't have that, that's their weakness. So of course the popular side of what people play is AP. But doesn't mean they are the dominant side.

It hasn't been this way for a couple seasons now but in season 4/5 I forget where but AD mids were winning and that was when AP was constantly getting butchered. Not as much now cause the metas change but I went through that hell. Don't say that my facts are wrong because of that. I've given proof.

I don't remember duskblade getting nerfed right after. It took them awhile before they did, just like it takes them a long time do do anything cause they want enough stats to prove that they need to nerf something.

No. They nerfed it due to Zed mains complaining. I saw it.

DeranoxFeb 20, 20181 votes

[deleted]

MysticDreams12Feb 20, 20181 votes

0/10 reply.

My argument was just fine, and don't use people's rank/champion they main against them.

Another automatic downvote and report.

ZedUsanGovosFeb 7, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Nope. They are abusing it.

Zed is extremely strong, Talon strong but more manageable to play against. Not everyone takes stopwatch, and a whole 20 AD lost?! Why don't you look at all the AP we lost since the s5 or whatever season marksmen update? We've probably lost over a 100 by now. So stop complaining about that when AP has it worse.

And yes, when Zed can abuse the bot lane matchup, he gets even stronger cause Riot decided to slap a buff on him to where he gets more AD from the people he kills. -.-

He's strong as hell, and even if you think I'm biased cause I hate him, it doesn't change the facts.

You're avoiding the question Frhaast asked. How are they abusing it if it was intended for them? That's like saying Tanks abuse health/armor/MR. Or Lux abuses AP.

Zed isn't strong. He's utter shit high-elo. Sure, not everyone takes Stopwatch, but they do against Zed, because a perfectly timed (haha pun) Stopwatch early game can starve Zed of any snowball potential pre-6. And it's not a whole 20 AD, it's a whole 20 Lethality. Lethality =/= AD. Lethality is flat armor pen. It's what allows him to burst down squishies. AD alone won't help him. AP is literally getting three new items, and three slightly buffed items. Lethality has Youmuu's, DBlade, and EoN, the latter of which no one takes, and DBlade was overtuned to the point that every other fucking role and class started ABUSING it.

YOU CALL THAT "REWORK" A BUFF TO ZED'S ULT? That shit is literally fucking useless. He gets like what, 5-30 AD at MOST from an ADC? Even then, he risks his life only to: NOT get the kill OR the AD, to not get the kill, and DIE, even if he does get the AD, to get the kill, die, and get the AD, or to not get the kill, nor the AD, but to barely live after wasting his ultimate. It's literally a lose/lose/lose/lose/lose situation.

And yes, your bias does invalidate your argument. There are no facts to support your evidence. THE ONLY reason and I repeat the ONLY fucking reason low-elo players struggle against him is because they don't know how to fucking play against him. They always fucking get caught out of position and die, because that's what their punishment is. If you fuck up your position near Zed, have fun in the Gray Screen! It's your fault if you get caught out. Secondly, Zed is SUPPOSED to kill ANY and ALL squishy, problematic champions, be them ADC or APC. Don't give me that "Muh Mage Squishy bursttt" bullshit. If you're a fed Lux, and Zed's fed, you can bet your left nipple he's coming for you.

if Riot was AD Biased, they'd have reverted Zed's previous nerfs at this point. Hell, not even at this point. They'd have reverted those nerfs back when DBlade wasn't hotfixed.

All the Mages were crying about Zed and lo and behold fucking Stopwatch joined the lobby. Whoopdeedoo, you fuckin' happy now? NOPE. Mages also cried about AP Itemization. Fair argument, as AD Itemization is better in general, but AD ASSASSIN itemization is fucking limited too. Zed and Talon generally go Youmuu's+Duskblade+ and/or Cleaver, with maybe a crit item, GA, and MAYBE a defense item like Maw or Sterak's or Merc Scim. Before S7, they'd go Youmuu's+BoRK+Cleaver+some Crit+GA. They weren't even dependent on DBlade back then. Riot overtuned it, now almost every other fucking class/role aside from AP Mages/Tanks (ignoring Hybrids) abuses it.

AP isn't just better because they're good late-game. They're better at ALL stages of the game. When's the last time you saw a Talon mid in a pro-game? Near the beginning of last year. I think around MSI, when Faker played him. What about Zed? Around the Summer Split I believe last year by BDD? I don't recall the exact time. Aside from those points in time, Mages have ALWAYS been fucking dominant in the SoloQ+Comp+Pro scene. Not just in quantity of champs, but also quality of champs.

When BDD was playing him, that was also when Zed was fairly strong because of the extra 20 Lethality he had S7 AS WELL as the overtuned DBlade. He was actually doing really well for the first time since 7.2 For all of S7, he had a 45-47% winrate constantly after Lethality was nerfed. That was all until it got reworked. He wasn't too broken when Lethality got reworked and after DBlade was "hotfixed", nor was he as weak as before.

Now without that extra Lethality, with the intro of Stopwatches, and with his targets dealing far more damage far faster than he does, Zed is extremely weak, with Talon being worse than him, hence Talon getting the much more impactful buff. Lower ult cooldown late game? Literally makes me puke. A better buff would be, like I said before, reverting some of his previous hard-hitting nerfs, i.e. the Ult Delay, or even the W missile speed. The things that actually count where he's at his peak performance (early-mid game).

Don't even try and fucking argue with people who actually know Zed. What the fuck do you think it means when Stylish, the undefeated BEST Zed NA stops fucking playing him, the unarguably BEST Zed KR stops fucking playing him AND League together, and when Riot themselves see the need for him to get some attention?

MysticDreams12Feb 8, 20181 votes

And you just eradicated your whole argument cause that all shows you are a biased Zed lover.

Reported and ignored. If you can come back and talk without insults, then maybe I might listen to you.

Until then, good bye!

ZedUsanGovosFeb 8, 20183 votes

{quoted}

And you just eradicated your whole argument cause that all shows you are a biased Zed lover.

Reported and ignored. If you can come back and talk without insults, then maybe I might listen to you.

Until then, good bye!

Funny how you think that you actually have a more valid opinion when everything you said about Zed was refuted by the people who know him.

When all else fails, report the people you don't know how to create a counterargument for.

L U L. That's super fucking sad tbh.

MysticDreams12Feb 8, 20181 votes

And they are wrong as well. My opinion is just fine.

You were reported because you were being disrespectful and insulting.

I think you're just salty that you caught by the mods.

And what's sad is that you are taking it out on others for your own mistakes.

Grow up.

ZedUsanGovosFeb 8, 20183 votes

{quoted}

And they are wrong as well. My opinion is just fine.

You were reported because you were being disrespectful and insulting.

I think you're just salty that you caught by the mods.

And what's sad is that you are taking it out on others for your own mistakes.

Grow up.

LMAO. I think you have a little trouble processing things. Lemme spell it out for you.

#The points that you made

#about Zed and Talon being strong/broken

#have all been refuted by

#people who know those champions.

I don't care if I've been "caught" by the mods for voicing my opinion. If people are gonna cry about being told to use their brain and think about things logically, good for them. Report me. Doesn't change the fact that you're refusing to acknowledge the fact that your points have been nullified. You're neither acknowledging my points, nor your own points and what you got wrong, and you're not even trying to see what points I or anyone else may have gotten wrong either.

I'll never understand this odd mindset that those who know jack-diddly-shit about a champion somehow have a greater understanding and/or a more valid opinion than those who actually take the time to look at their strengths and weaknesses. Even moreso, that those very people refuse to acknowledge either side's correct or incorrect points.

MysticDreams12Feb 8, 20181 votes

No, I don't have any trouble processing things. My points, came with facts, and were not disputed by anyone.

I did use my brain and think logically, you are just being offensive with no reason.

I'm not wrong in anything here besides knowing how you are being and just reporting you.

I know the strengths and weaknesses of Zed. Stop being rude.

Reported and ignored.

ZedUsanGovosFeb 8, 20183 votes

{quoted}

No, I don't have any trouble processing things. My points, came with facts, and were not disputed by anyone.

I did use my brain and think logically, you are just being offensive with no reason.

I'm not wrong in anything here besides knowing how you are being and just reporting you.

I know the strengths and weaknesses of Zed. Stop being rude.

Reported and ignored.

Really now?

#AP is better because they have better late game and teamwork. AD doesn't have that, that's their weakness. So of course the popular side of what people play is AP. But doesn't mean they are the dominant side.

Hm.... Last I checked, a majority of SoloQ+Comp+Pro games had an AP Mid. :thinking:

#Nope. They are abusing it.

Hm.... I guess Lux is abusing AP because she deals too much damage with it and has really hard CC. :thinking:

#And yes, when Zed can abuse the bot lane matchup, he gets even stronger cause Riot decided to slap a buff on him to where he gets more AD from the people he kills. -.-

Hm.... except he actually gets far less AD than he had on his W in S6. Not to mention that the extra AD either comes with the outcome of his death, which goes against the idea of an assassin getting in, getting the kill, and getting out, or that Zed doesn't get the AD, nor does he get the kill, and instead wastes his ult even if he lives. :thinking:

#Assassins are and should not be the counters to mages in my opinion.

Except they should be because that's their designated role. To kill the fucking annoying enemy squishy. If the enemy Ez is 5/2 and the enemy Ryze is 3/4, Zed is gonna go for the Ez. If the enemy Syndra is 7/1 and the enemy Varus is 1/3, Zed is gonna go for the Syndra. Mages aren't fucking special. :thinking:

#Cooldown increased to 22 / 20 / 18 / 16 / 14 seconds from 18 / 17 / 16 / 15 / 14. Extra bonus AD reduced to 4 / 8 / 12 / 16 / 20% bonus AD from 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25% bonus AD.

#Which was bogus because people were not complaining about his stupid W, but about his ult and his extreme high reward no risk.

I agree, this is bogus, because nerfs to his W and/or R are the most fucking hard-hitting. Those are the reason he's an assassin. Without them, he'd be a worse, less mobile Talon. Not to mention the reduced Missile Speed on his W. And he's high reward no risk???? In what universe is that logical? Melee assassins are always the high reward high risk champions. They have to get in your face. They don't auto-attack from across lane like certain champs... Twitch :thinking:

#So stop complaining about that when AP has it worse.

Except AP is getting an itemization update in the coming patch. Three NEW items, three adjusted items, and a returning item. That's 7 altered/added items in total. Lethality had three-- one of which is rarely taken these days, and the other of which Riot overtuned to fucking Kingdom Come. :thinking:

#I saw it when all the Zed mains were complaining about Zhonyas, they nerfed it for that sole reason.

All the Mage Mains were complaining about Zed, and once again I reiterate, Stopwatch was fucking added in as an item and a free rune. :thinking:

Zed is a Feast/Famine champ. If you beat him in lane, gucci. Don't let him snowball pre-6. If your team feeds him, that's on them, not him. Stopwatch works to prevent any early potential kills by Zed. Not to mention the fact that it also helps build into Z's Hourglass.

You are wrong in not even acknowledging the points at which you've been disproven and just been focusing on the ones that hurt your feelings.

You clearly don't know his strengths/weaknesses.

Otherwise, a lot of the points you made wouldn't have been made in the first place, such as the "fact" that his W CD nerf and "rework" were "love-taps" and "buffs" respectively. Or the "fact" that he's "abusing" a stat literally designed FOR his class/role. Or the "fact" that Zed gets "more" AD from his Death Marked targets when they've been slain. Or the "fact" that Zed lost 20 AD and not 20 Lethality from S7 into S8/Pre-S8. Yep. Y'sure are showing a clear understanding of all his little intricacies and conditions. Mhm. Yeeeppp. Mhm.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/270711324516810753/411004256712261632/ZedThinking.png

MysticDreams12Feb 8, 20181 votes

Reported.

You are wrong in many points there but it's not worth replying to you and your bias.

Good BYE.

Totally Not JinxFeb 8, 20182 votes

Quick heads-up, I've edited out part of your comment as it did not fit in with the Universal Rules; specifically, it was disrespectful to a fellow player. If you have questions, feel free to talk to us in the The Boards Moderation Discord or the Discuss the Boards sub-board.

Totally Not JinxFeb 8, 20183 votes

Hello there! I've edited out a significant part of your comment as it did not fit in with the Universal Rules; Namely, many of your comments were disrespectful. If you have questions, feel free to talk to us in the The Boards Moderation Discord or the Discuss the Boards sub-board.

ActivatingEMPFeb 8, 20182 votes

Who told you Talon is strong? His winrate dropped 4% from last season, along with a decreased pick rate. This meta is brutal for Talon, along with the loss of stormraider's surge.

DeranoxFeb 20, 20181 votes

There are so many things wrong with what you are saying. You clearly do not understand what situation Zed and Talon are in right now. <Removed by Moderation> I assume you probably do not know how to play against assassins. In higher elo, Zed and Talon get stomped by AP mages at all stages of the game.

We can't even get ahead early and snowball due to stopwatches and Ninja Tabi's that hard counter us. There is a reason why you will see AP champs in the midlane 90% of the time in high elo. Those who actually play Zed and Talon in this meta are people who main them/OTPs and know how to do decently well with them because they have good knowledge of how they work. However, it is for a fact that they are absolute garbage in the current meta compared to several AP midlaners.

Please do not try and justify anything about AD assassins <Removed by Moderation> If you ask anyone in Masters/Challenger, they will ALL agree that Zed and Talon are almost never picked as they are absolutely worthless in this meta. Anything that happens in bronze/silver is utterly meaningless in the grand scheme of things as the players in that elo have little to no knowledge about how the game works.

<Removed by Moderation> I'm just being honest in my words. It just really, really annoys me when people don't know a thing about what they're talking about. Have a good day.

MysticDreams12Feb 20, 20181 votes

Really? How rude.

NEVER use someone's elo or rank against them, that's an automatic report, and also the mods don't tolerate that. Be nice and respectful.

I know how to play against assassins, don't rudely assume that. Stopwatches are only used once, and Zhonya's I already used in my thread's argument so I'm not repeating that again.

I know a lot about assassins, again stop with the accusations and assuming stuff that is quite frankly, WRONG. My arguments are justified, I brought proof. Just because I'm lower elo doesn't mean my opinions or FACTS are wrong.

Learn to be respectful and nice because it really, really annoys me when people falsely assume things and attack them for their rank.

And, I know what I'm talking about. Reported, downvoted, and now ignored. Bye!

DeranoxFeb 21, 20181 votes

Your "argument" is the following : "Riot is AD biased, nothing else".

But I guess I'm the one whose falsely assuming things! Great facts and proofs you have given indeed, I appreciate it.

Anyways, to each their own opinion, right? ^-^

[slayer-jinx-wink]

MysticDreams12Feb 21, 20181 votes

Rude.

I've given facts, no else need to show you. And yes, you've been falsely assuming things all along.

Again, learn to be respectful.

Bye now.

[slayer-jinx-catface]

ModJikkerFeb 21, 20182 votes

{quoted}

There are so many things wrong with what you are saying. You clearly do not understand what situation Zed and Talon are in right now. <Removed by Moderation> I assume you probably do not know how to play against assassins. In higher elo, Zed and Talon get stomped by AP mages at all stages of the game.

We can't even get ahead early and snowball due to stopwatches and Ninja Tabi's that hard counter us. There is a reason why you will see AP champs in the midlane 90% of the time in high elo. Those who actually play Zed and Talon in this meta are people who main them/OTPs and know how to do decently well with them because they have good knowledge of how they work. However, it is for a fact that they are absolute garbage in the current meta compared to several AP midlaners.

Please do not try and justify anything about AD assassins <Removed by Moderation> If you ask anyone in Masters/Challenger, they will ALL agree that Zed and Talon are almost never picked as they are absolutely worthless in this meta. Anything that happens in bronze/silver is utterly meaningless in the grand scheme of things as the players in that elo have little to no knowledge about how the game works.

<Removed by Moderation> I'm just being honest in my words. It just really, really annoys me when people don't know a thing about what they're talking about. Have a good day.

Hey,

I edited your comment to remove unnecessary mentions of rank that were used to discredit the OP. Your argument is fine and sound without having to resort to using rank as a part of it. Let's keep it friendly and respectful here. If you have questions about this edit, please come to the Discord.

Thanks

[poppy-wink]

Lucian WaifuFeb 7, 20183 votes

I am not bronze either and also think it is stupid. The "nerf" was more than necessary because of the changes to runes, with electrocute dealing ad damage, with zed, all that extra damage he can pretty easily get off once he hit level 3 can do 70% hp to champs in a single rotation if the enemy doesn't position perfectly.

Warrior PrincessFeb 7, 20183 votes

LOL assasins are weaK!?!?!?!?! you must be playing the wrong game.

ovocheradFeb 11, 20182 votes

This is coming from a Lux main?

CeolFeb 11, 20181 votes

I don't think Zed or any AD assassins are particularly weak - in a micro/1v1 aspect, I think their damage is quite strong - especially with item 3147 . It's a combination of multiple reasons why AD assassins generally don't perform well.

Many teams don't compensate for having an AD mid. Which means, without a real magic damage threat/presence, enemies stack armour and quickly nullify your damage and outscale your team.
AD+Support combination dominates currently and any utility that enables or aids that combination is more effective than selfish picks, particularly, in the case of assassins, /generally/ only the assassin receives the gold and no team assists or distribution of gold occurs - you may be ahead, but it doesn't mean your team is (higher elos take advantage of the map pressure, but the point still stands).
You're an early focused class in a meta that doesn't give enough time to close out a game before ADs become extremely relevant or Supports/Tanks make you irrelevant. Utility dominates teamfights when carries have too much protection.
Assassin rework funneled out kill-potential in kits to , meaning you're more dependent on that 1 item spike than you were before. Additionally, if you fall behind, you're much more irrelevant now. (I think Zed doesn't really suffer this, he didn't really change much - but Talon, etc. did) You're also easier to competently fight 1 on 1. (I personally find an issue with an assassin having to 'outplay' me all the time, you'd think them finding me on the map by myself without any real protection enough of an outplay...but sure)

How can you cope with these issues? You pressure bot lane and help them snowball. Taking all of the gold and kills is no longer viable. You can't solo carry as Zed or Talon anymore, especially the higher up you go. Use your pressure to invade the enemy jg with your jg and put the teams laners behind while putting your team ahead. Your roaming is now your strength (and your pick-potential, but this is situational and never a given against competent players).