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Senna should have a Support Build-Path

Octagoon··8 votes·8,263 views

I play a lot of support, specifically enchanter/caster supports, so got really excited when Senna was announced as this Marksman-Support hybrid, hoping that she'd be some sort enchanter support that has some marksman capabilities and gameplay. In the end, though, she ended up being way more on the Marksman side than I had hoped. Don't get me wrong, I'm still really excited for Senna, and I think it's a great idea to open up the support role and invite players who usually stick to a different role to try out support, but her current kit and especially her current scalings feel a bit too much like a pure ADC than a Marksman-Support.

Like I said, this isn't wrong in any way, but Senna is so close to working both as the more Marksman-like Support she is right now and as the enchanter type Support I was hoping for. Even though her scalings don't really allow for an enchanter build-path right now, her kit could allow her to function as an enchanter with just a few tiny tweaks. I don't really know what balance repercussions it would have, but the change that seems easiest and most effective to me would be to just expand her passive a bit. Her passive already makes it so Senna gains AD instead of AP for the Spelltheif's Edge item path, so why not the other support items? I'd love to rush an Athene's Unholy Grail right into an Ardent Censer on Senna, and this tweak would allow it, but with her only AP scalings being a .2 on her Q heal and a .4 on ult damage and shield right now, it doesn't really seem like a possibility. With this passive change, the Marksman side of Senna would function just as well while also allowing for more traditional support players like myself to feel more comfortable with her.

There are other options, like adding more AP scalings, or maybe just hyper-driving the AP scalings she already has, but I feel like the passive option just has the most finesse to it. I'll definitely still play Senna if this change doesn't happen, but I'd love to have the option to play her in my preferred play style. Once again, I have no idea what balance implications this would have, but it seems like it's just a good idea to open up Senna to a wider demographic and allow more people to enjoy the new champ.

26 Comments

Josh Sand6 votes

I'm honestly not sure why you would bother putting a shield and heal in her kit without giving her a decent enchanter build path. I've been dying to see them make a mechanically demanding shield support and I was hoping Senna would finally be that champion.

Octagoon4 votes

I KNOW. Senna has what she needs in her kit to be this really cool and unique champion that has the ability to be challenging as an enchanter or carry support, but her scalings don't allow her to play as an enchanter. It would just take a tiny change to her passive or scalings to open up this different high skill-cap enchanter build.

Saezio2 votes

We have many enchanter supports. If you want to support as enchanter there are ample picks. People that like to play as marksmen will now have an out to support too. Why should she be tailored for enchanters specifically? Why not IDK, make her be able to feel like a Juggernaut.

Octagoon3 votes

I completely agree. I do think that adding a Support that has the kit and gameplay of a Marksman is a really good idea, but my point is that with the kit and playstyle Senna already has, you can open up options for people who like Marksman and Enchanter play-styles. All they'd have to do is allow her to gain AD instead of AP for the other support options. Senna wouldn't lose anything she already has, she'd just have another more Enchanter-like build-path.

Z3SIeeper2 votes

She's not a marksman that builds support. She's a support that builds marksman (though honestly it's really just lethality).

Octagoon2 votes

That's where I get kind of mixed feelings.

I understand that Senna is a support who is only really meant to be built as a marksman to highlight her original style and design, and that by adding the ability for Senna to be built as a traditional support kind of ruins the whole idea.

At the same time, though, encouraging a champion like Senna to be the carry doesn't really work out in a gameplay sense. It works for a champion like Pyke because Pyke's kit, specifically his ult allows him to power-up without sacrificing too much of his ADCs power, but Senna doesn't have that ability. I'm only basing this on pretty basic knowledge, but it seems like when Senna is powerful, no one really wins.

Her passive makes it so even when she's relatively strong, she's not too powerful, the -35% damage on crits and lack of AD on level-up preventing it, as well as other things like her 0.5-second attack wind-up. Her passive certainly makes up for this somewhat, but not enough to allow her to be as strong as a full carry. So if she gets a bunch of the early kills, she's only strong for a small amount of the game, but soon, all the negative effects of her passive catch up to her. That's fine, a support like Senna shouldn't ever be as strong as a carry, but the problem is that most other carry supports either become strong to the point where they become the carry, or they help their ADC get strong in other ways, like Pyke sharing kill gold, but it doesn't seem like Senna can do either. When Senna's the strong one in the late game, you kind of just have two weaker ADC's.

Beyond just that though, Senna isn't just a marksman or just a support, she's both. Personally, I think that means that she should be able to play as both. It's hard to make a kit in which that can happen, but Riot has basically already done it. If all it takes to allow Senna to play as both of her classes is a few passive or scaling changes, I don't see any reason to not do that.

The way I see, Senna could easily keep all that's unique about her while also opening her up to an additional demographic of characters by adding a traditional support build path. I understand that she loses a bit of her identity of being the pure Marksman-Support, but I just feel that the exchange is worth it.

Z3SIeeper1 votes

She's not encouraged to be a carry.

In no way shape or form is this champion a carry. Just like any other damage-based support, she deals damage on top of her utility.

Think how Brand is a "support" or Pyke is a "support". Senna is a "support".

You can play her ADC or support and she'll play exactly the same. Same build, same skill order, same everything. Nothing changes. Just like Brand and Pyke.

Also Senna is constantly getting AD, range and crit over time on top of her passive scaling up the % damage each level. She scales, she doesn't fall off.

Octagoon1 votes

That's not entirely true though.

Senna doesn't exactly fall into the same category as Brand or Pyke because neither of them have to face their downsides to the extent that Senna has to. When Brand is strong, He's a carry. He'll continue to take the gold and get just as strong as any other mid lane mage would and basically be a carry. When Pyke is strong, he's certainly strong, but not quite as strong as a full assassin. His damage is a bit less than most assassins, and he usually has to use his best disengage ability to deal the damage needed to kill a stronger unit. Don't get me wrong, his W is a plenty strong disengage, but it's no Zed ult shadow or Kha'Zix jump reset. That's okay for Pyke though, because even though he's a bit weaker than a full assassin, he makes up for it by sharing the kill gold with his ADC.

Senna doesn't quite fit that though. While you're completely right, Senna does scale, that was bad wording on my part, it's not really a matter of scaling or not, it's a matter of scaling as well as an ADC. Brand will scale just as well as any other Mage, and while Pyke may be a bit behind other assassins, he gives triple the gold for each kill, so he's fine. Senna though, is just weaker than other ADCs. She has the downsides of the lack of AD on level-up, and lack of mobility, and the other things I mentioned above, so she's in the same boat as Pyke when it comes to being a bit behind, but unlike Pyke, she doesn't really have a mechanic to make up for it.

Sure, Senna has her range, or crazy ult, or inherent scaling crit, but with the downsides in mind, when you weigh her against another ADC, she just kind of falls flat. That's where she differs from the others. That's why I said the 'two weaker ADCs' thing. It's because when Senna gets strong, she doesn't have enough to compete with the other ADCs, and her ADC won't be able to compete either because Senna's taken all the gold.

And again, I don't really see that as the main problem.

Even if she is able to compete with other ADCs or make up for it in some way, there isn't any real reason to deny another play-style from coming to light. Senna already has what she needs, she just needs a tweak or two to allow that style to come out. It just allows more people to enjoy Senna in the way they want to. I can't see that as a bad thing.

Pika Fox1 votes

{quoted}

That's not entirely true though.

Senna doesn't exactly fall into the same category as Brand or Pyke because neither of them have to face their downsides to the extent that Senna has to. When Brand is strong, He's a carry. He'll continue to take the gold and get just as strong as any other mid lane mage would and basically be a carry. When Pyke is strong, he's certainly strong, but not quite as strong as a full assassin. His damage is a bit less than most assassins, and he usually has to use his best disengage ability to deal the damage needed to kill a stronger unit. Don't get me wrong, his W is a plenty strong disengage, but it's no Zed ult shadow or Kha'Zix jump reset. That's okay for Pyke though, because even though he's a bit weaker than a full assassin, he makes up for it by sharing the kill gold with his ADC.

Senna doesn't quite fit that though. While you're completely right, Senna does scale, that was bad wording on my part, it's not really a matter of scaling or not, it's a matter of scaling as well as an ADC. Brand will scale just as well as any other Mage, and while Pyke may be a bit behind other assassins, he gives triple the gold for each kill, so he's fine. Senna though, is just weaker than other ADCs. She has the downsides of the lack of AD on level-up, and lack of mobility, and the other things I mentioned above, so she's in the same boat as Pyke when it comes to being a bit behind, but unlike Pyke, she doesn't really have a mechanic to make up for it.

Sure, Senna has her range, or crazy ult, or inherent scaling crit, but with the downsides in mind, when you weigh her against another ADC, she just kind of falls flat. That's where she differs from the others. That's why I said the 'two weaker ADCs' thing. It's because when Senna gets strong, she doesn't have enough to compete with the other ADCs, and her ADC won't be able to compete either because Senna's taken all the gold.

And again, I don't really see that as the main problem.

Even if she is able to compete with other ADCs or make up for it in some way, there isn't any real reason to deny another play-style from coming to light. Senna already has what she needs, she just needs a tweak or two to allow that style to come out. It just allows more people to enjoy Senna in the way they want to. I can't see that as a bad thing.

I mean, yes, when brand is strong, he is pretty much a full fledged midlaner in terms of AoE damage. However, when brand is weak, he lacks utility to fallback on, where as Pyke still has his Q, his E, and can still hang around for executes to just at least goldgen for his team. If brand is behind and tries to hang around for his EQ, hes not likely going to live long or do anything with his stun.

FlameHalbrdOkido2 votes

I think she also gets bonus stats from her stacking passive that will make her heals and shields stronger as well, so u don't even need items as bad since ur passive will help, so u CAN build those support items, and then rely on ur passive to give u the AD scalings u need for the missing AD ur NOT getting for not being able to convert ALL AP from those traditional enchaner items into AD, her passive is basically free scaling

Dynikus1 votes

Her passive already makes it so Senna gains AD instead of AP for the Spelltheif's Edge item path, so why not the other support items?

Because the only reason they did that is that there is no AD support item yet. It's a change they did for a single patch. As soon as preseason hits, she'll build the AD support item.

Saezio1 votes

They could have forced her into one of the other 2 items though. Why does she get a better treatment than any other ad champ that goes support? Baffling.

Octagoon1 votes

I know that Riot only really has that in the passive right now because the AD Support items that are being added in the new season aren't out yet, but what I'm trying to say is that since Riot seems to have the ability to change the way Senna interacts with the AP Support items, there's an opportunity to expand on that and allow Senna to access more build paths and let her build as an AP Support.

Done251 votes

She needs AP ratios on her Q and R damage.

Saezio1 votes

She already has some doesn't she?

Done251 votes

{quoted}

She already has some doesn't she?

Oops, the R damage has AP scaling, but the Q doesn't.

Kazekiba1 votes

Q does not have AP Ratios on the damage. For that matter, I dont think her Snare does either. Senna gets free marksman stats for playing the game, I agree she should not BUILD like an ADC too. In no universe should a supports first back be a BF Sword.

Pika Fox1 votes

Primary reason is probably just because she is a lanky, squishy looking champion with a big gun, which people look at and go "alright, doesnt look big and beefy so probably not a tank, and she is shooting me with autos a lot so probably AD".

It makes more visual sense for her build path to be more in line with damage than for it to be more in line with "Suddenly, Redemption!"

Octagoon1 votes

That's a good point. Visual clarity is certainly very important.

Senna is already a bit weak on the visual clarity, her design doesn't exactly scream "AoE Stealth Ghoul Zone". So her clarity won't ever seem 100% accurate.

But honestly, I can't say that I have any good solution for that. Her white cloak does have a cleric-like look to it, so the healing isn't a complete surprise. Maybe just make her cloak a bit lighter, or have her particle effects be a bit more white and support looking? I can't really say, but even something small like that could give enough visual clarity to make her healing not seem completely un-characteristic.

Pika Fox1 votes

{quoted}

That's a good point. Visual clarity is certainly very important.

Senna is already a bit weak on the visual clarity, her design doesn't exactly scream "AoE Stealth Ghoul Zone". So her clarity won't ever seem 100% accurate.

But honestly, I can't say that I have any good solution for that. Her white cloak does have a cleric-like look to it, so the healing isn't a complete surprise. Maybe just make her cloak a bit lighter, or have her particle effects be a bit more white and support looking? I can't really say, but even something small like that could give enough visual clarity to make her healing not seem completely un-characteristic.

Agreed that her healing visuals could be a bit better on her base skin, i think the primary thing riot is worried about there is too much visual noise, but her skin has more obvious visuals on her ally Q, so i think they could afford to make it a bit more obvious.

Josh Sand3 votes

Kits aren't specifically tied to how a champion looks

This is a game with a Ninja that is a tank Shen

A guy in plate armor that is a burst assassin JarvanIV

A lady in plate armor that is squish af Kayle

A pirate that doesnt want to get into melee with you Gangplank

A gerbil ninja that wants to charge at you face-first Kennen

And a crying midget that can eat damage for days Amumu

Pika Fox2 votes

[{quoted}](name=ixi Josh Sand,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=53rrMoWX,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2019-11-02T03:44:41.497+0000)

Kits aren't specifically tied to how a champion looks

This is a game with a Ninja that is a tank Shen

A guy in plate armor that is a burst assassin JarvanIV

A lady in plate armor that is squish af Kayle

A pirate that doesnt want to get into melee with you Gangplank

A gerbil ninja that wants to charge at you face-first Kennen

And a crying midget that can eat damage for days Amumu

Shen is fairly bulky with a large model, and fairly slow. He is also still squishy for a tank, and relies on his abilities to negate damage.

Jarvan isnt a burst assassin, hes more of a fighter.... tank.... thing.... He really came out before focused on more defined roles. Hes mostly just an initiator who leads his team into battle.

GP is still competent at melee combat. Pirates arent exactly known for pure melee prowess.

Kayles model is also fairly small, and plate armor as is depicted on her isnt translated as being beefy.

Yeah, and he is affectionately referred to as pikachu, who does the same thing.

Again, amumu is a more squishy tank, as most of his tank stats comes strictly from items. Hes also an original champion, so his art design isnt as coherent as newer ones.

Josh Sand3 votes

The argument you proposed was that Senna's build path was related to her aesthetic appearance, which doesn't hold water given that league has a hobbit mummy that can tank entire teams, warriors in plate armor that are squishy, ninjas who are tanks, and other ninjas that literally want to jump in the middle of as many opponents as possible.

That's about the only response I can actually deliver after reading your argument about GP being competent at melee combat, and that pirates weren't characteristically melee fighters... when everyone knows that pirates have historically carry melee weapons and short-ranged black powder weapons.

gl on your next posts man

IainG101 votes

I think the Q Heal and R Shield should ONLY scale with AP; currently there doesn't seem to be any real reason to not got full AD-lethality.

Wulframm Rolf1 votes

her heal is already strong, and she's focused on damage. try building unholy grail on her. she has ap scaling for a reason, it's just her passive is focused on AD so that's where she scales the strongest. i think hybrid builds are viable. probably.

PuIse1 votes

not sure why this hasn't been said already but there is a reason lulu an raka scale so poorly now. not even gonna start on top laners who start building her tank with free scaling if they haven't already tried

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