A lot of people might disagree, but it's true. Masteries add a whole new element to the game thats hard to balance without completely ruining champs or making certain champs broken.
Keevalroy41 votesMasteries are fine, keystones are what broke champions.
Pÿrö2 votesCan i get an A-men
D rok1 votesI agree - I find myself playing around my keystone (and the enemy's) more than I play around my own kit. The very idea of making 9 new passives and splitting them among 130 champions is just a balancing nightmare.
The old set-and-forget masteries weren't great, but at least they were in the background, affecting your power levels, but not really affecting the WAY you play. These keyestones have just made balance hell, and honestly I find the game less fun with them. I don't envy the balance team right now at all.
WadeWilson133724 votesMasteries and runes add a layer of depth and customization to the game that is crucial in MOBAs, RPGs, and MMOs.
However, Keystones are not okay. They are designed to be specific enough where they favor and even break a handful of champions, while punishing many others simply because they dont benefit from them.
For example, if youre a tanky champion with no shields/sustain, then you cant really benefit much from the Runic Armor mastery, which is 8% bonus healing and shields, which is MASSIVE compared to the joke that is 45 hp to a tank.
There is several champions that lack a fantastic keystone for them. An example of this would be Gnar. Because of his mini form being considered ranged, he cant get the double lifesteal proc from Grasp, making it a bad keystone for him even though hes meant to be a tank. So now he is a tank that is pushed to go Fervor or Thunderlords, which is just not optimal. There is also champions like Gangplank who absolutely break keystones such as Grasp with a RANGED PROC (Omg Riot for the love of God fix that shit already).
But regardless, Keystones were like 90% of Riot's ideas, a great concept, but so poorly implemented it favors a small pool of individuals while massively screwing over the majority of others.
They need to just bring back the old mastery system which was just vanilla and simple, adding a layer of transparent depth that the majority of people wont see through.
The Yetii Rider2 votesA tank without shields/sustain? So a tank that doesn't have any heals in their kit and no shields, who doesn't build Locket, Warmog's, Zz'rot, Spirit Visage, or Banshee's Veil...so Rammus? No, Rammus builds Zz'rot. Who are you talking about?
Shen, Udyr, Sion, Mordekaiser, Lee Sin, Poppy, Nautilus, Skarner and Malphite all have shields.
Garen, Mundo, Darius, Warwick, Aatrox, Ekko, Alistar and Tahm Kench all have healing.
Braum, Thresh and Leona all build Relic Shield and Locket.
Who are you talking about that can't use the bonus healing/shield?
WadeWilson13374 votesTanks dont build lockets unless they are supports. Tanks will opt to get 
or 
as they are more gold effecient and give more resistances to themselves.
No one builds Warmogs atm, i dont think ive seen a single high elo player build Warmogs since Season 5 to be entirely honest. Resistances are just too important.
Spirit Visage and Banshees dont give any direct sustain or shielding so...no idea what your argument are on those either.
You completely missed my point though, which is champions with more sustain/shielding are exceptionally strong atm due to the fact they get a 8% bonus to them. See 
and 
.
The overall point of this post is that the current masteries favor certain champs over others, which is poor game design.
The Yetii Rider2 votesThe 8% bonus applies to regeneration. SV and BV both give plenty of regeneration.
And the 8% bonus favoring certain champs over others is not poor game design. The bonus to your shield is minimal. If you have a 500 shield, you get 40 extra shield. That's maybe half an auto at the point that you will have 500 shield. The bonus to regeneration (always active) is far more important.
D rok2 votesGod, I agree so hard with this.
[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
Spoofghoul1 votesMaybe, i like the idea of keystones but like you said they are often too specific in their use.
take windspeakers blessing for example the small bonus to resistances is nice but cannot be used on many champions.
On its on the 10% increased healing/sheilding isnt all that great its pretty comparable to runic armor which is only slighlty weaker.
If the armor/mr bonus also applied to self heals and shields, obviously not regen or regen abilities like mundo ult or voli passive. then lots of champions could make much better use of it.
Right now its only decent on a handfull of support champs.Maybe like 5 champions
The same is true for the warlords bloodlust, its mostly good on auto attackers speicifically adc's because of their dps
If it was half as strong, 10% instead of 20% but was omnvivamp like gunblade instead of plain old lifesteal then it would be usefull on alot more champions.
And fervor also only favors dps auto attackers. If it would apply to single target spells aswell then it would be more appealing to alot more champions. This might break ryze though :P
Just pointing a few out here.
Anyway my point being for most champiosn there really only is 1 keystone thats good and the resta re meh or flat out unusable The entire idea has fallen flat. It was supposed to make your mastery choices be more meaningfull and im pact gameplay patters more, And yes they succeeded in making ti impact gameplay, but the choice part isnt really there. By making the masteries more usable by more champions they might actually compete with ech other and make players opt into different playstyles with the same champion.
Hullabaloo9071 votesYou can totally get grasp on ranged champs
WadeWilson13371 votesThere is not a single purely ranged champion that takes grasp consistently and does well with it. Not a single one. Taking grasp on a ranged champ just doesnt make sense, Warlords is the better option for them.
Hullabaloo9071 votesThat's because almost no ranged champs build tank, and it is a tank mastery.
WadeWilson13371 votesAnd youre arguing ranged can take Grasp for what reason then...?
Hullabaloo9071 votesThey can if they build tank.
KING ATTILA15 votesRemove runes too.
XeroKimo1 votesIn all honesty I don't think they should remove runes, with an upcoming update, tier 2 runes will become the lowest tier and they are all going to be 1 ip
As for why I think they shouldn't remove runes, let's just say that they did remove runes, they will most likely have to adjust either base damages, ability scaling, level scaling or actually give every single champ their own "runes" as a base, for eg; AP champs actually starting out with a little ap and get ap per level. If the very last thing I mentioned were to happen, it would ruin any other possible play styles with that champ because everything else will become less optimal as they don't have "runes" you can pick from
On the other hand, if they choose to adjust every single champs level scaling, ability scaling or base damages scaling, that becomes a) a lot of work b) a sht ton more rebalancing to do in order to actually make everything at a "normal" level
TNHA Baritone15 votesLast season's masteries worked JUST FINE.
YumaS2Astral6 votes[{quoted}](name=Karma Mechanix,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4kfB05TA,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-04-24T04:15:04.403+0000)
Last season's masteries worked JUST FINE.
I personally understand Riot's reason to replace old masteries with the current masteries. The old ones didn't felt impactful many times and they had a lot of invisible power. In addition, they were set in stone for many champions; you wouldn't decide "was that mastery better on X champion?"
The problem is that as much as this concept is cool, it is broken and makes champions be nerfed just because of them.
TNHA Baritone4 votesThe old ones didn't felt impactful many times and they had a lot of invisible power. In addition, they were set in stone for many champions; you wouldn't decide "was that mastery better on X champion?"
Oh you mean like the whole 3 months that thunderlords was better on every single champion?
NichtHurz3 votesYeah, but he's still right. For most of the time you'd just use standard rune pages and if you changed something you couldn't really feel it when playing. So the reasoning behind this idea is legit and I find myself trying to optimize my masteries more often.
Saphixia8 votesRemember before preseason how rito said something along the lines of "We want masteries to have a visible impact ingame." WELL the have done that havent they. And TBH they are only broken on champions that have hard to balance kits (Zed, Ekko, Mordekaiser, Yasuo) and its not as if these champions havent been broken by anything else in the past (Duskblade, the Juggernaught items, crit chance)
Count Zubat7 votesMaybe not whole masteries, but keystones. Since their release they caused nothing but problems and tbh, they are completely unneeded.
MLDzXnRRR5 votesKeystones are too strong.
The Deckowner3 votesThe stupid keystone is what broke the game.
warlord: free lifesteal fever of battle: free dmg on aa DFT:free dot on abilities TLD:free dmg windspeaker: free additional heal+resistance bond of stone:free dmg reduction Grasp of undying: free % hp dmg scaling with ur hp strength of ages: free hp
literally everything other than stromraider's surge is broken as fuck.
WadeWilson13371 votes[deleted]
Moon Mom3 votesI hate it when people underestimate stormraiders lol. I've been running that on Diana since it came out.
WadeWilson13371 votesStormraiders has a very fine niche, but 9/10 champions will just rather have Thunderlords.
Boulderox2 votesThat's what I don't get the keystone looks to favor assassins that can get in but can't get out, they give you stormraiders, and every assassin picks thunderlords just because damage...
Nimble Manta1 votesIt's great on burst mages.
WadeWilson13371 votesThe Thunderlords helps your typically weak laning phase alot, and the extra damage can be the difference between getting the killl or winning the trade. Alot of assassins have high mobility, so stormraiders just isnt needed.
Moon Mom1 votesI wouldn't even say that. Most melee assassins other than zed wont be in range to proc thunderlords, so it isn't worth it. Stormraiders gives you an escape outside of flash if you do enough damage to an enemy and are looking for an escape.
Poske1 votesStormraiders has a very fine niche, but 9/10 champions will just rather have Thunderlords.
Except that thunderlords is really weak atm....
WadeWilson13371 votesSaying Thunderlords is weak is just silly. Its not op, its just in a good position. Theres a reason people default to it when they dont know what other keystone to take.
Poske1 votesSaying Thunderlords is weak is just silly. Its not op, its just in a good position. Theres a reason people default to it when they dont know what other keystone to take.
Name a champion i ll tell you what to take
Thunderlord users are pretty much sheeps who are late to the party
WadeWilson13371 votes
Mid, not support 
Poske1 votes
Ahri - yes. I will mention however that dft is good with her e and w but she really needs bigger snowball potentional Azir - deathfire touch (100% sure as azir main) bard - yes donger -deathfire touch and thunderlord is even it all depends if towers proc deathfire touch Karma - you actually want the shield thingy Katarina- Deathfire touch gives her 213123193810 more dps.. so of on this 1 kennen- Idk he is thunder guy but dft should still be the best (Not sure on this 1) LE BL- Deathfire touch now this seems odd but dft is good if champion has single targeted abilities it gives her so much dps because of q and e 100% sure Lissandra- She can use dft since she is spammy but she can also use thunderlord Lulu should get the shield thingy. Not sure how pixie interacts if one basic = thunderlord then thunderlord Lux- Yes lux goes thunderlord orianna- Dft unless you are bad. If a champion spawns all the time dft is better.. and i never stop using abilities with her.. Riven- Warlords actually I hope boxbox swapped to it its better Syndra- DFT she never stops casting.. = dft Twisted fate- yes thunderlord Veigar -DFT has 50% ap scalling on a champion who can go up to 1200 ap its easy to explain viktor-dft single targetd abilities multiple isntaces of dmg and dots.. Xerath-When the fk you ll use all 3 abilities. Against bad midlaner who lets you e? Zed - well you go thunderlord since there is no better option ziggs - dft zilean- IDK zyra - Depends how plants react
WadeWilson13371 votesIf you take DFT on Azir, you are a boosted and should not main Azir anymore. Donger instaprocs Tlords with his W, it is by far a better choice. Karma - If you take Windspeakers on Karma mid, this conversation is officially over. Katarina - See Azir. Kennen - Tlords is 100% better. LB - ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME, Please for the love of god do not take DFT on Leblanc. Lissandra - Tlords is simply better. Lux - See Karma. Orianna - See Lissandra Riven - Debatable, but Tlords is better. Syndra - ...Pls for the love of god, read Lissandra. Veigar - Decent argument, but Tlords helps his abyssmal laning phase too much. Viktor - See Lissandra. Xerath - See Lissandra. Ziggs - See Lissandra Zilean - See Lissandra Zyra - See Lissandra
Poske1 votesIf you take DFT on Azir, you are a boosted and should not main Azir anymore.
I have more then 60% winrate on azir for 2 seasons already... Azir is godamn hypercarry you dont care about stupid bonus 50 dmg in lane . He is not designed to win a lane
Donger instaprocs Tlords with his W, it is by far a better choice.
If turrets proc dft dft is better But idk how it works
Karma - If you take Windspeakers on Karma mid, this conversation is officially over.
One of those noobs who doesnt use R > E with karma in teamfights OK .. No JUST WINDSPEAKERS PERIOD
Katarina - See Azir.
DFT gives you way more dps WTF IS NOT CLEAR? CHECK the godamn DFT AND thunderlord you ll see why thunderlord is outclassed. Got more pentakills with katarina then you got with all champions..
Kennen - Tlords is 100% better.
IDK I dont play kennen. Even fervor could work even windspeaker.. (QW target Gain ms. PROFIT)
LB - ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME, Please for the love of god do not take DFT on Leblanc.
I was top 20 le bl EU for a reason.. Both procs of Q apply full dmg from dft since its single targetd. Both procs of e apply full full dft since its single targeted . You generaly just get way more dmg Did lots of testing dft won
Lissandra - Tlords is simply better.
She has 2 sec cooldown on her q that alone makes it debatable
Lux - See Karma.
Yes thunderlord is better on lux but thats because she can Just E>AA And proc it karma cant do that so easly. You really want stupidly strong shield on karma
Orianna - See Lissandra. Plz dont play ori with thunderlord for the love of your team.. Again this is my main... kinda pointless to argue with me I know what gives me more dps
Riven - Debatable, but Tlords is better.
Tlords is better if you want to lose a lane. She has no sustain and pots are 50 gold. Good riven players dont build lifesteal specially not early on ...
Syndra - ...Pls for the love of god, read Lissandra.
Syndra is spammy champion she pokes with q / qw rarely she uses 3 abilities and when she does its because she wants to all in / jungler is coming you ll rarely proc it unless you are vs melee
Veigar - Decent argument, but Tlords helps his abyssmal laning phase too much.
He has 2 dmging abilities -.- You ll only proc it once you use ultimate or come to aa target AT WHICH POINT YOU ARE COMING CLOSE TO ENEMY JUST TO AA HIM FOR THUNDERLORD. enemy ll trade back then..
Viktor - See Lissandra.
Well viktor has that Q>E>aa pattern you gotta keep in mind his kit has multiple dots. His R specifily interacts stupidly with dft. And given taht Viktor is a safe Mage who scales.. You dont want thunderlord
Xerath - See Lissandra.
WHO THE FK POKES WITH ALL 3 ABILITIES? You ll EQW target 3 times per lane SUCH WORTH and I am only mentioning laning phase because THUNDERLORD SKS dick late game
Ziggs
Zilean - Both keystones suck on zilean. Zilean doesnt really have good keystone Zyra - Depends on plants
You dont seem to know how stupidly conditional thunderlord is. DFT makes everything stronger period It interacts stupidly with dots spammy champions and single targeted abilities. If an x champion does any dft is better on him
pugsly2 votesMasteries could very well be viable if balancing were done at a proper level, instead of nerfing individual champions rather than looking at whats actually making them strong
Wimbledofy4 votessounds like you are talking about keystones, not masteries as a whole.
Poske2 votesA lot of people might disagree, but it's true. Masteries add a whole new element to the game thats hard to balance without completely ruining champs or making certain champs broken.
Completly disagree
Name me 1 masterie which makes certain champion broken atm? You cant
Strongest abuse case imo is deathfiretouch brand and warlord yasuo having that said those champions are even potentionaly to weak
Masteries are healthy addition to the game
I would really like supports being buffed by masteries giving them more ways to interact since that is the biggest no to support role Masteries for supports could easly be made OP yet healthy since supports do deserve it
Lovely Pants1 votesMasteries can be balanced, but that doesn't mean they are healthy. When you have blanket numbers being thrown into the system it doesn't give extra power to those who need it. It has to be absorbed into the balance somewhere in the long run.
What happens when Brand is strong with Deathfire Touch or Soraka and Janna are more hellish to face in lane with the addition of Windspeaker's Blessing? That extra power comes out of their individual kits in the long run. They don't get to choose other masteries because they are tied to the synergy with their specific keystones.
It becomes a crutch for a champion's kit, not a boon.
Poske1 votes[{quoted}](name=Lovely Pants,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4kfB05TA,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2016-04-25T13:37:12.574+0000)
Masteries can be balanced, but that doesn't mean they are healthy. When you have blanket numbers being thrown into the system it doesn't give extra power to those who need it. It has to be absorbed into the balance somewhere in the long run.
What happens when Brand is strong with Deathfire Touch or Soraka and Janna are more hellish to face in lane with the addition of Windspeaker's Blessing? That extra power comes out of their individual kits in the long run. They don't get to choose other masteries because they are tied to the synergy with their specific keystones.
It becomes a crutch for a champion's kit, not a boon.
Same argument can be said about items?
Are we done now?
Your thread is borderline pointless
Lovely Pants1 votesWhen one thing does something you automatically want another thing that doubles down on that? One system existing isn't a defense for the other becoming more like it.
Furthermore, items and masteries as they stand interact with champions in different ways.
Items are additional power locked behind gold purchases. The choices you make in a build as a result are more dynamic as they can change according to the pace of the game and the unique relative power of players on either side of the game. This makes item build choice more meaningful.
It also means that a better portion of the early game can be defined more by basic champion kit strengths and weaknesses.
While items do create some scenarios of generally accessible power and utility, they have more targeted effects on the range of a class' baseline power and potential. Our current masteries don't stick very well to class so much as create random synergies with individual champions across classes.
There's always a struggle between what baseline power is afforded to champions through their kits and what is afforded through generally accessible mechanics. I would argue that items carry enough weight in the latter and work in a sensible enough fashion that masteries should be tailored more towards strategic benefits and some small poorly-scaling benefits than more overt forms of power.
Aids cuz League1 votesDid I just hear someone say Yasuo is to weak
Poske1 votesDid I just hear someone say Yasuo is to weak
Yasuo is one of the easiest champions to camp and against any player who can handle the burden of : I should bait his windwall before killing him (If windwall impacts your champion anyway (Malzahar etc) I should AA his shield before killing him I shouldnt engage on him when he has his tornado ready I shouldnt engage on him when he has his e charged I shouldnt engage on him in mid game when there are allied minions around (In early game this doesnt matter minions do hurt him ) I should constantly aa my creeps so he cant push my wave to much. This doesnt mean you shouldnt last hit... Then there are other tips Stun him once he ultis so he cant q people Generaly dodge his q (Left-Right) Stun him as he is activating his q (Tilts them hard)
At my division Good midlaner Does all of this. I dont even want to mention how often yasuo player is punished by a jungler more then a naughty girl by a d-i-c-k
Given that majority of playerbase is bad and cant exploit this weaknesses I can understand why You would find it wierd when I say that yasuo is to weak
I was hoping that Phantom dancer ll make him more tanky but eh from my testing didnt work as well as I though it would
Aids cuz League1 votesOh I know he has tons of weak points, but compared to others he isn't that weak, its mainly that double crit passive.
Nekusen1 votesor just rework cancerous spells like 
trollpole
Quepha1 votesCompletely wrong. Mastery setups are bound so tightly to champions that it makes it easier to balance an entire class.
Hella Kaiser1 votesnah, the whole game is broken