Gromp and Krugs

Its Marluxia·Jan 6, 2015·4 votes·1,350 views

Simple and Clean, Gromp and Krugs should no longer give Laners level 2. Reduce XP Given to laners for first 5 minutes or something, this is season 3 all over again, but instead of getting half a level THE ADC CAN GET ONE WHOLE LEVEL.

19 Comments

Cale017Jan 6, 20155 votes

Two solutions for this problem:

A) The enemy team can do the same. If they don't, you're allowing them to push the lane for free and giving them free CS. If they do, both sides now have a player at level 2 and probably at a bit less health depending on how the fight went and what against.

B) People should probably just stop poaching in general. It's a dick move to the jungler, we don't like it when you take it upon yourself to take our camps. A nice jungler will come into lane, get a kill and walk away, or get an assist and take a minion or two. Some might be fine with just the assist. But a pissed jungler will come into lane, get the kill, steal the double, and finish clearing that wave before heading back into the jungle to keep farming.

I mean, hey, it just means you can push for the turret right?

Taking a jungler's camp is one of the single worst things you can do for someone who doesn't owe you a damned thing. We don't sit in your lanes taking your source of xp and gold, don't come into the jungle taking ours. Yes, they respawn, but so do minions. Difference is, minions don't give you buffs that in many cases a jungler needs to help their clear times or with objective/sight control. Take raptors from us, and we no longer know when we're in vision of a ward. Take Krugs and we can't stun other monsters or deal increased damage to a turret. Take wolves and we can't get that nifty sentry. Take gromp and tanky junglers lose one of their better sources of jungle clear. Red and blue buff need no explanation beyond don't assume that they're yours for the taking no matter what phase of the game it is. In most cases if I see a laner trying to take one of my camps, especially when I've already got them fed at my own expense or if they're just being dicks otherwise, I'll drop whatever else I'm doing and head that way because in most cases I can guarantee you that I'll get there before you can finish them off, and I guarantee my smite is going to do more damage than anything your kit can throw out. And I'm always happy to see laners giving me leashes for free. If you keep doing it I'll camp your lane out just to make sure you get nothing but assists because believe me, being a jungler gives you enough predictive ability to know exactly when we need to fire what ability to net us the kill instead. If you particularly piss us off, we can just watch you flounder in lane while giving our precious ganks to other laners. I'm not worried about losing one lane if it means I can get the other two super fed.

The long and short of it is that as a laner, you aren't getting as much out of any of the buffs as a jungler is. Even if the camps respawn, that's no excuse to take a camp because that potentially sets your jungler back, which weakens their ganking abilties, and possibly tips the scales in the enemy's favor. A butterfly flaps it's wings in one hemisphere and a hurricane hits the shores in another. We need those camps. Take them from us and we're more than happy to take more from you. Only difference is, we're good enough to make it look like we're still helping you out while we do it. Last time I checked, killing an enemy when it looks like they might escape if you don't act right then and there is better than letting them get away with their health bar low, and if you're pushing for a turret it doesn't really matter who gets the creeps in a wave. And it's oh so easy to let Nocturne's passive clear a wave, or grab that last second Q to make sure that running carry coughs up 300 gold.

But hey, we're just helping the team win.

SecretAgentHulkJan 6, 20151 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdyVbwnPt0U&feature=youtu.be&t=4m56s

Sightless66Jan 6, 20151 votes

A) The enemy team can do the same.

That's not a solution, that's how it is right now. They can't push fast enough to deny me anything and they can't outfight me with the early experience gain. As far as bot lane is concerned, there are much higher gains than risks for taking a camp. Just leaving it as it is isn't a solution.

People should probably just stop poaching in general.

So long as it gets me an advantage on my enemy laner and doesn't completely and utterly screw my jungler (like a buff steal would), people aren't going to stop. Also, as a jungler, I'm not going to start revolting and stealing entire waves of farm over this. Wanting to win will take precedence, and actively trying to screw over your teammates isn't helpful. Neither is taking lots of already-occupied lane farm when I could be doing something actually useful for the team. As much as it sucks to say, bot lane taking the camp is the best option for the team. If I started at the other side, my route likely doesn't include those before they respawn anyway, and I can always gank or something like that instead. This is not the same thing as them stealing camps that I need for buffs later. That is a bad option for the team. This isn't.

People aren't trying to be dicks when they take that camp at first spawn. They're using the best tactic to win. The solution is fixing it so that taking those camps is not the best way to win. It's the same way it was back in season 3 when taking the camps at level 1 was always done. It needs to be solved in a similar way. Just make machette required for jungle experience before 5 minutes. Problem completely solved, over and done with.

If you keep doing it I'll camp your lane out just to make sure you get nothing but assists because believe me, being a jungler gives you enough predictive ability to know exactly when we need to fire what ability to net us the kill instead.

Who the heck cares? The other dude dying is the important part. Killstealing is not a big deal. These threats mean nothing. The only threat you actually have is one of trying to play the game not to win, and most people aren't going to make that choice.

Cale017Jan 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That's not a solution, that's how it is right now. They can't push fast enough to deny me anything and they can't outfight me with the early experience gain. As far as bot lane is concerned, there are much higher gains than risks for taking a camp. Just leaving it as it is isn't a solution.

Yes, and how it is has become such a blatant issue that even Riot has stepped in and tried to give laners a slap on the wrist for it.

So long as it gets me an advantage on my enemy laner and doesn't completely and utterly screw my jungler (like a buff steal would), people aren't going to stop. Also, as a jungler, I'm not going to start revolting and stealing entire waves of farm over this. Wanting to win will take precedence, and actively trying to screw over your teammates isn't helpful. Neither is taking lots of already-occupied lane farm when I could be doing something actually useful for the team. As much as it sucks to say, bot lane taking the camp is the best option for the team. If I started at the other side, my route likely doesn't include those before they respawn anyway, and I can always gank or something like that instead. This is not the same thing as them stealing camps that I need for buffs later. That is a bad option for the team. This isn't.

An advantage that doesn't matter if the enemy laners don't let you engage on them for nothing through bad positioning, and an advantage that you can very quickly lose within the next few minutes of a match.

I'm not saying that junglers need to revolt or be outright dicks about it, because that's counterproductive. But I'm giving examples of how a jungler using the same sort of behavior towards a laner's territory that laners impose on a jungler's is frowned upon. If you don't like it when they act like that towards you, don't act like that towards them.

People aren't trying to be dicks when they take that camp at first spawn. They're using the best tactic to win. The solution is fixing it so that taking those camps is not the best way to win. It's the same way it was back in season 3 when taking the camps at level 1 was always done. It needs to be solved in a similar way. Just make machette required for jungle experience before 5 minutes. Problem completely solved, over and done with.

A gamble isn't a tactic, it's a risk. If it doesn't pay off, it was a waste. If it does, awesome. But nine times out of ten when a laner takes an early camp, the other lane catches up by level 4 or 5 without much issue. They usually end up hitting 6 at about the same time as they would have otherwise, and the lane is still decided by who can make the better plays, not who has more levels. I'm well aware that they aren't being dicks, although there are some who are dicks about it, but that doesn't change that it isn't a surefire tactic. Smart positioning, warding, and well timed engages are a surefire tactic to win. Not having a level that the enemy laner catches up to within three or four minutes of smart play.

Who the heck cares? The other dude dying is the important part. Killstealing is not a big deal. These threats mean nothing. The only threat you actually have is one of trying to play the game not to win, and most people aren't going to make that choice.

You're focusing on the wrong things. It's not about the killstealing. It's about the concept. It's about people getting cocky and giving up whatever iota of a lead they had. It's about them hindering a jungler's ability to gank at the times that they would normally have practiced being able to gank along their jungle routes. The benchmarks they usually hit. Laners don't want junglers to inhibit their ability to do their jobs, but laners expect a jungler to give up resources that help them do theirs.

Sightless66Jan 6, 20151 votes

Yes, and how it is has become such a blatant issue that even Riot has stepped in and tried to give laners a slap on the wrist for it.

Yeah, it is a problem. With that in mind, it would have been nice if Riot's solution did something to actually fix it. I mean, they took away less than one last hit worth of gold. Did anyone actually care? It wasn't a solution, it was just... nothing. It mattered more for mid-game jungle farming than level 1 camp taking. If Riot thinks level 1 poaching is a problem, then they should treat it like a problem and fix it.

The thing is, Riot knows they didn't fix the level 1 problem. They actually had on the PBE a jungle change that made all monsters spawn at 2:05, which would have completely prevented laners from taking camps. However, since this also would have killed leashing, they removed it after people made major objections. The point is, Riot is aware that they didn't actually solve the problem. They are aware that it is still a good idea for people to poach level 1 camps. They just haven't implemented a real solution yet.

nine times out of ten when a laner takes an early camp, the other lane catches up by level 4 or 5 without much issue.

Not from my games and the games I watch. It ends up giving some form of advantage in more than half the lanes where it is used. That's my analysis.

An advantage that doesn't matter if the enemy laners don't let you engage on them for nothing through bad positioning, and an advantage that you can very quickly lose within the next few minutes of a match.

If they stay back, then I get a better chance to farm while denying them farm. If I hit level 2 or 3 first, I can exploit that easily. I don't consider that a gamble, particularly since the cost is very low since a jungler has other good options for what to do with their time. I don't usually even take the camp opposite of where I start. I'm not exactly broken up about not having it up. It only becomes a major problem when a top-laner is taking my camps at the same time as the bot lane does (because, again, it's a good idea for him to do so).

But I'm giving examples of how a jungler using the same sort of behavior towards a laner's territory that laners impose on a jungler's is frowned upon.

But you're making the assumption that a laner taking a camp is just a bad idea. I don't agree that it is. I actually think it's the best thing for the team, so the entire concept just looks silly. It's comparing "something that is a good idea for the team but isn't great for the jungler" to "something that isn't good for the team, or anyone on it." It's not frowned upon just because it's the laner's territory; it's frowned upon because it's inefficient for the team as a whole. It's not a realistic comparison.

You're focusing on the wrong things. It's not about the killstealing. It's about the concept. It's about people getting cocky and giving up whatever iota of a lead they had.

And what does "I'm going to gank and be sure to take the kill" have to do with that concept? That's not a bad concept, but I don't think what you've been saying actually relates to that.

Laners don't want junglers to inhibit their ability to do their jobs, but laners expect a jungler to give up resources that help them do theirs.

If you inhibit my ability to do my job in a way that helps the team, I'll be all for it. If you can do it in a way that barely inhibits my job but majorly helps yours, I'll be even more for it (see, lane taxing after a gank, even if help pushing isn't needed). That's how I see taking a level 1 camp. If you're doing it just for the sake of spite, which is what the words you use seem to be going for, then it's different.

I'm just going to state my basic argument again. I think taking the camps level 1 is always a good idea, and even when I'm jungling, I expect my bot lane to do it. I'm not happy at all that it is a good idea, and I think the game needs to change so it isn't. I think Riot needs to step in with a change that actually matters, but isn't so ham-fisted as their "make all camps spawn at 2:05" solution.

Cale017Jan 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, it is a problem. With that in mind, it would have been nice if Riot's solution did something to actually fix it. I mean, they took away less than one last hit worth of gold. Did anyone actually care? It wasn't a solution, it was just... nothing. It mattered more for mid-game jungle farming than level 1 camp taking. If Riot thinks level 1 poaching is a problem, then they should treat it like a problem and fix it.

The thing is, Riot knows they didn't fix the level 1 problem. They actually had on the PBE a jungle change that made all monsters spawn at 2:05, which would have completely prevented laners from taking camps. However, since this also would have killed leashing, they removed it after people made major objections. The point is, Riot is aware that they didn't actually solve the problem. They are aware that it is still a good idea for people to poach level 1 camps. They just haven't implemented a real solution yet.

Agreed. Riot hasn't found a solution yet, because it's a tricky thing to find a solution for. But my point here is that they shouldn't have to find a solution, laners should just stay in their damned lanes.

Not from my games and the games I watch. It ends up giving some form of advantage in more than half the lanes where it is used. That's my analysis.

We've had different experiences, and I'm not going to say that yours are any less fitting than mine. We've just seen different things happen. Until I see something as consistently positive, my view on the advantage it gives will remain approximately "meh."

If they stay back, then I get a better chance to farm while denying them farm. If I hit level 2 or 3 first, I can exploit that easily. I don't consider that a gamble, particularly since the cost is very low since a jungler has other good options for what to do with their time. I don't usually even take the camp opposite of where I start. I'm not exactly broken up about not having it up. It only becomes a major problem when a top-laner is taking my camps at the same time as the bot lane does (because, again, it's a good idea for him to do so).

Pushing the enemy laners back means pushing yourself up, and opening yourself up to ganks when they freeze the lane farther than the midway point of the bottom lane. It looks like it's an advantage, but it really just leaves you more open to attack if the enemy jungler decides to camp you out. Proper support from the jungler negates any advantage a laner can have, so ticking your jungler off generally isn't a good idea.

But you're making the assumption that a laner taking a camp is just a bad idea. I don't agree that it is. I actually think it's the best thing for the team, so the entire concept just looks silly. It's comparing "something that is a good idea for the team but isn't great for the jungler" to "something that isn't good for the team, or anyone on it." It's not frowned upon just because it's the laner's territory; it's frowned upon because it's inefficient for the team as a whole. It's not a realistic comparison.

I don't think it's a bad idea. I think it isn't as good of an idea as leaving it for the jungler. I personally think sitting in your lane where you're supposed to be getting the gold that's already accepted as yours while the jungler stays in the jungle they're supposed to be getting the gold that's already accepted as theirs is a better one.

And what does "I'm going to gank and be sure to take the kill" have to do with that concept? That's not a bad concept, but I don't think what you've been saying actually relates to that.

Hold me back, and I'm going to deny you gold too. If you're going to take my camps I'll just leave you with the assist gold instead of letting you get the full benefit. Or I can be a nice guy and help the well communicated teammate out by accepting a lesser amount of gold and retreating into my jungle to continue killing innocent neutrals.

If you inhibit my ability to do my job in a way that helps the team, I'll be all for it. If you can do it in a way that barely inhibits my job but majorly helps yours, I'll be even more for it (see, lane taxing after a gank, even if help pushing isn't needed). That's how I see taking a level 1 camp. If you're doing it just for the sake of spite, which is what the words you use seem to be going for, then it's different.

It isn't about spite. It's drawing a comparison between the two behaviors. It's just as easy for a jungler to decide they're entitled to the gold and xp in a lane as laners seem to like to decide they're entitled to the same from a jungle. The jungler isn't your dog on a leash, you shouldn't be able to take from them what you see fit anymore than you want them to take what they see fit from you.

I'm just going to state my basic argument again. I think taking the camps level 1 is always a good idea, and even when I'm jungling, I expect my bot lane to do it. I'm not happy at all that it is a good idea, and I think the game needs to change so it isn't. I think Riot needs to step in with a change that actually matters, but isn't so ham-fisted as their "make all camps spawn at 2:05" solution.

I respectfully disagree. Laners should be in lane interacting with the enemy laners to keep the playing field as even as possible, because it's all too easy to lose an advantage in a game like this.

Honestly the solution would be solved easily enough by giving 25% reduced xp on neutral camps in the jungle to anyone who doesn't have a Machete/jungle item built. Laners can no longer get level 1 from a single camp, and junglers retain the full xp growth. Done.

Sightless66Jan 6, 20151 votes

But my point here is that they shouldn't have to find a solution, laners should just stay in their damned lanes.

So long as it is the best way to win, that isn't going to happen, and it is the best way to win. Team comes first.

I mean, what are you saying? Think about it for a second. You are saying that laners should stay out of the jungle even if there is no solution to the problem making it good for them to take part of the jungle (I know you don't think it is, but what you wrote is saying that it doesn't matter whether or not it is a good idea for them to poach). Why would they want to do that? Heck, even as a jungler, why would I want them to? I want them to make the choice that would make my team win most often.

Until I see something as consistently positive, my view on the advantage it gives will remain approximately "meh."

I advise taking a look at some of TheOddOne's games. He talks about this mechanic a lot. He hates it, but also notes the advantage it gives a lot, particularly when he plays support. It's a good place to start to see how huge the effect is on higher-level play.

Proper support from the jungler negates any advantage a laner can have, so ticking your jungler off generally isn't a good idea.

It doesn't tick junglers off usually. They expect it, because they know it's the best way to get bot lane an advantage.

Pushing the enemy laners back means pushing yourself up, and opening yourself up to ganks when they freeze the lane farther than the midway point of the bottom lane. It looks like it's an advantage, but it really just leaves you more open to attack if the enemy jungler decides to camp you out.

We could have a whole discussion about the virtues of pushing at specific timing and under what conditions, but what is important to note is that pushing is not just "bad". Besides, if I really don't want to push, I don't have to. They last hit three creeps while I didn't. It's pushing towards me now, and I'm a higher level. Freezing or pushing happens at my choice. I get to have the control, and if I want to push or freeze, I get to push or freeze. I can also get level 3 earlier, which makes it impossible for them to freeze against me if I do choose to push it in (unless I have no waveclear at all, but that's a longer discussion). The point is, I have more control over the minions than they do if they choose to deny me exp by not actively pushing. If they do actively push, I have a massive exp lead and can utilize that easily.

It's just as easy for a jungler to decide they're entitled to the gold and xp in a lane as laners seem to like to decide they're entitled to the same from a jungle.

Sure, but the difference is that his decision would be bad for the team. the laner's decision to take the first camp isn't. It should be, but it isn't. If he ever does have a reason to take my farm (pushing it in, getting himself 6), I always welcome it. Most laners I know do as well. It's not a compelling comparison because if that was actually a good idea, I'd welcome you to my lane.

Laners should be in lane interacting with the enemy laners to keep the playing field as even as possible, because it's all too easy to lose an advantage in a game like this.

You seem to assume that taking a camp level 1 loses you advantage. I disagree. I think it's a source of advantage that you can then bring to your interactions with the enemy laner. If he's interacting with one source of exp and I'm interacting with a bigger source of exp (and I may even get the other source of exp) and then we meet, I have an advantage. And it's a pretty big source of exp I'm getting over him.

Honestly the solution would be solved easily enough by giving 25% reduced xp on neutral camps in the jungle to anyone who doesn't have a Machete/jungle item built. Laners can no longer get level 1 from a single camp, and junglers retain the full xp growth. Done.

I agree, although I would prefer to make it 100%, and I would make it last until 5 minutes. Completely do away with level 1 shenanigans (because even 25% less exp might still be worth it sometimes, even if it might sometimes be a "gamble" that way), without affecting the current midgame. Other changes might be necessary later on, but for the level 1 problem, this is the most basic solution.

Cale017Jan 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So long as it is the best way to win, that isn't going to happen, and it is the best way to win. Team comes first.

Too bad it isn't the best way to win. Playing smart and communicating is the best way to win. Letting your jungler have all of their camps, which given the buffs the minor camps now give also helps them with guarding their jungle or clearing it out while keeping higher health percentages, means they can gank earlier or can gank better when they do, which gives you much more advantage than an extra level in lane does.

I mean, what are you saying? Think about it for a second. You are saying that laners should stay out of the jungle even if there is no solution to the problem making it good for them to take part of the jungle (I know you don't think it is, but what you wrote is saying that it doesn't matter whether or not it is a good idea for them to poach). Why would they want to do that? Heck, even as a jungler, why would I want them to? I want them to make the choice that would make my team win most often.

So far as I'm concerned, the best choice to help the team win most often is staying in your lane and interacting with the enemy laners. An early level doesn't secure a lane, smart playing and punishing mistakes they make does.

I advise taking a look at some of TheOddOne's games. He talks about this mechanic a lot. He hates it, but also notes the advantage it gives a lot, particularly when he plays support. It's a good place to start to see how huge the effect is on higher-level play.

I don't tend to watch the pros for two reasons. First, I prefer to learn at my own pace in my own way. I'm not someone who can watch and learn from it, I have to do it myself. Kinesthetic learning, so far as it can apply to a video game. I get much more benefit from playing a game/sport than from watching it be played. If I'm just copying what I saw from someone else it feels like I'm doing nothing more than playing their game instead of playing mine. Second, I don't have a whole lot of time for League in a day anyways. Between work and other forms of entertainment, if I'm doing something related to League it's queuing into a match, not watching someone else play it. As it is I have a hard enough time watching someone play a game and not joining in. Makes me twitchy. When my roommates were watching the S4 finals I had to have my laptop in the living room playing my own matches at the same time.

I'm not saying that watching pros wouldn't help me out, just that it's not my preferred way of learning and it's not how I feel I can use my time best. Ever so often I'll go watch it for tips or tricks on things that I just plain can't figure out, like Rumble's last hitting, but for the most part I try to feel it out myself. And from what I've felt out, taking an early camp doesn't give the sort of consistent advantage people are saying it does. Until what I'm seeing changes, that's what I'm going to keep my opinion towards it.

It doesn't tick junglers off usually. They expect it, because they know it's the best way to get bot lane an advantage.

They shouldn't have to expect it. Laners shouldn't have to expect a jungler to take minion taxes, but we do because we used our time, our mana, and our health ganking your lane. You got a definitive, quantifiable benefit out of it, so we take something to make up for it. When you take that early camp you aren't giving us a definite benefit, you're hoping that you can put that extra level to good use. You're betting on it future actions, not taking compensation for a completed one .

We could have a whole discussion about the virtues of pushing at specific timing and under what conditions, but what is important to note is that pushing is not just "bad". Besides, if I really don't want to push, I don't have to. They last hit three creeps while I didn't. It's pushing towards me now, and I'm a higher level. Freezing or pushing happens at my choice. I get to have the control, and if I want to push or freeze, I get to push or freeze. I can also get level 3 earlier, which makes it impossible for them to freeze against me if I do choose to push it in (unless I have no waveclear at all, but that's a longer discussion). The point is, I have more control over the minions than they do if they choose to deny me exp by not actively pushing. If they do actively push, I have a massive exp lead and can utilize that easily.

Engaging on enemies will naturally push the lane, though. There's no two ways about that. Either your abilities are dealing damage to the enemy minions or they're switching their aggro to you, leaving your minions to get free damage on them, which starts a butterfly effect of pushing the lane. Sure you can avoid it happening if you're really good about it, but it doesn't alter the statement that engaging an enemy pushes the lane.

Sure, but the difference is that his decision would be bad for the team. the laner's decision to take the first camp isn't. It should be, but it isn't. If he ever does have a reason to take my farm (pushing it in, getting himself 6), I always welcome it. Most laners I know do as well. It's not a compelling comparison because if that was actually a good idea, I'd welcome you to my lane.

Putting the jungler behind is generally considered bad for the team. Giving an enemy the chance to free farm is generally considered bad for the team. On the same foot, me not being in the jungle and sitting in lanes is then reducing the gold and xp available to teammates, which is just as bad. I'm not saying that either of them are good options. I'm saying that neither of them are preferable to the standard practices that have been around for years already.

You seem to assume that taking a camp level 1 loses you advantage. I disagree. I think it's a source of advantage that you can then bring to your interactions with the enemy laner. If he's interacting with one source of exp and I'm interacting with a bigger source of exp (and I may even get the other source of exp) and then we meet, I have an advantage. And it's a pretty big source of exp I'm getting over him.

But not a source of exp that guarantees a win condition. If I walk into a lane where the enemies are out of position whether from just plain bad choices or from not warding properly to know when I'm coming, I can guarantee you at least one kill in most cases. Even if they get away, I'm giving you almost a minute's worth of time to be able to freely farm, giving you breathing room while burning their summoner spells, effectively making them easier to kill, and increasing the gap between you and them because they're getting neither gold nor xp while in lane.

That's an advantage. In no way are the enemies coming out in any better of a position, and the only way that you're losing the advantage I gave you is if you completely and totally muck it up.

An early level is easy for enemy laners to deal with, otherwise the bottom lane would always be decided by who got to level 2 first, not who made the better choices.

I agree, although I would prefer to make it 100%, and I would make it last until 5 minutes. Completely do away with level 1 shenanigans (because even 25% less exp might still be worth it sometimes, even if it might sometimes be a "gamble" that way), without affecting the current midgame. Other changes might be necessary later on, but for the level 1 problem, this is the most basic solution.

That's a good idea too. It'd also mean that laners wouldn't inadvertently take part of the xp from the first camp in a leash if they try to help out by giving a harder leash but stay just a bit too long. I don't blame them for doing that, they're trying to help and all, it's just something that pops up now and again that's understandably frustrating when it happens. I just feel like that'd be an odd way to write into the formulas the game uses to determine available xp for a camp.

Sightless66Jan 6, 20151 votes

I don't tend to watch the pros for two reasons.

It's fine not to watch them, but if you're going to make arguments based on "this is what is good to do and what isn't", it can be useful to know what people who are indisputably better at the game than either you or me think about the issue. I'll tell you right now, virtually all high-level players are using this strategy, and it isn't because they don't understand how to play the game. There is a reason, and it is because that early level is so ungodly huge in lane, that it is crushing to lane against. A full level is devestating. I also helps to know that junglers usually don't do a full clear at high levels anyway. It rarely happens. I'm telling you this because I think you are majorly undestimating how much that early level can determine a lane, and you're overestimating how important it is for a jungler to do a full clear including the bottom-lane camp. If you don't have time to watch, that's fine, but I spend a good deal of time watching them, and it is not an accident or mistake that everyone is making this choice.

But not a source of exp that guarantees a win condition.

And neither is leaving it for the jungler to take or ignore at their discretion. It's a matter of what's better, and having it on the laners is better. And as for your ganking, you don't need that camp to do it. In fact, I forsake that camp so I can gank earlier. This is not an either-or situation. I can have that camp, and a gank from a jungler somewhere on the map. Not hard.

You're betting on it future actions, not taking compensation for a completed one

When I gank for a laner, I'm hoping they can use the gold and exp advantage from a kill or the advantage from burned summoners to get a bigger advantage. When a laner takes a camp, I hope they can use the exp advantage to get a bigger advantage. Virtually the same thing to me. Both give them some objective advantage. Both mean little if they aren't capitalized on.

They shouldn't have to expect it.

I agree, but right now, they do expect it, and they will continue to so long as it remains a good idea. Making it so that they shouldn't have to expect it is Riot's job.

Engaging on enemies will naturally push the lane, though.

This is reasonably easy to mitigate and even when I do force a push, it pales in comparison to the advantages gotten by winning a fight. If I force a back from this, I can push and reset the lane very easily. If I don't, I can deny creeps for upwards of 30 seconds.

An early level is easy for enemy laners to deal with, otherwise the bottom lane would always be decided by who got to level 2 first,

In high level play, it often is. Getting level 2 first is one of the biggest factors in who wins lane that I can think of. If there is one thing I can impress on you, it is that lanes are very often won by who hits level 2 first.

I'm not responding to either one of these threads anymore. Have to get back to real life. Right now, I'd advise you to do some research onto just how huge an early level 2 advantage is to skilled players. It is massive.

MPendragonJan 6, 20153 votes

I got to say, I main jungle myself, and you couldn't have said it any better.

"A butterfly flaps it's wings in one hemisphere and a hurricane hits the shores in another."

Man, do I understand that.

Cale017Jan 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I got to say, I main jungle myself, and you couldn't have said it any better.

"A butterfly flaps it's wings in one hemisphere and a hurricane hits the shores in another."

Man, do I understand that.

There's nothing quite as despairing as watching a laner fall behind one CS at a time and knowing exactly what that means when that small advantage becomes a big problem down the line. Or knowing that the Akali who just got first blood is going to start roaming within the next five minutes while your bot lane doesn't seem to be a fan of warding.

MPendragonJan 6, 20152 votes

Your lane requests assistance or a gank in their lane, you gank their lane. While you're ganking their lane, they're still hiding under their tower farming cs, not paying any attention to the rather impressive initiation you got off. Still you aren't able to capitalize on it, because your ADC is free farming under tower. You end up dying (naturally, since the enemy 'CLEARLY' realizes you're more of a threat than they are, considering you're actually doing something to try to win) You get behind, the enemy team gets ahead, just enough to snowball them out of control. All because cs'ing was more important.

Cale017Jan 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Your lane requests assistance or a gank in their lane, you gank their lane. While you're ganking their lane, they're still hiding under their tower farming cs, not paying any attention to the rather impressive initiation you got off. Still you aren't able to capitalize on it, because your ADC is free farming under tower. You end up dying (naturally, since the enemy 'CLEARLY' realizes you're more of a threat than they are, considering you're actually doing something to try to win) You get behind, the enemy team gets ahead, just enough to snowball them out of control. All because cs'ing was more important.

No way, man. If they aren't moving up to get into position where they can follow up on my engage, I don't gank. I'll walk back into the jungle from river and go on about my merry way. So long as they start moving forwards to ready up, I'll at least come in and apply some pressure to give them room to breathe.

But like hell if you're gonna send me in like an attack dog.

MPendragonJan 7, 20151 votes

Aye yeah, I get it. I'm more than happy to late game when i'm built to the nines like a beast tank, but early on when you're still working on getting yourself fed it's a really questionable tactic.

I know so many people have this mentality that the jungler is every lane's bitch, so to speak. Have some respect, yes your jungler is a type of support for your team, but if you start treating them like shit, they ain't gonna support shit.

And speaking on behalf of junglers, as guy who mains the role, the last thing you want to do is piss off your jungler, ESPECIALLY if you believe that they should be your core initiator. Myself, I thrive being dead center in the middle of a brawl, fucking shit up. But if your allies aren't taking advantage of the utility of you suicide peeling the shit of the enemies off of them, then it's their fault - yet, naturally we take the blame.

And blame we receive, shit we're given, stressful we stay.

Setting up plays, defending lanes when allies need to shop, remember buff respawn timers, have a good predictability of where the enemy jungler STARTED, so you know whey they're LIKELY to be when their jungle buffs respawn, ganking lanes, burning enemy summoner spells from attempted ganks so your lane partners may succeed in capitalizing on that advantage, slaying dragons & baron, protecting your comrades, initiating team fights.

Like some roles have a certain set of responsibilities, junglers are responsible for next to EVERYTHING, including warding on most occasions. On top of this, we'll receive blame from teammates, most likely role to get reported because the people who don't main jungle can't sympathize a shit because they don't understand how much weight the jungler has to carry, on top of their bullshit.

In all honesty the only role I would hate to lose more than a jungler is the support though. It sucks balls if you don't have that dedicated vision on the map to defend yourselves against onslaught of ganks, so on occasion a jungler will likely have to fill that responsibility as well, especially if your support doesn't value warding as part of their responsibilities.

MPendragonJan 6, 20151 votes

Both teams can do it.

You realize, they can also do it at level 5, and at level 7, and so on and so forth?

Aggressively ward to counter it, their attack speed is way too weak early game for them to be able to successfully exploit their range against the minion's walk distance, so you can invade them on it.

In the meta right now, you NEED to actively participate and get the early game vision going on to even compete on even playing grounds.

Every game is a rush to the river to get that vision up, to see the invasion. Predict which side you think the enemy jungler will start on, and attempt to counter the side they aren't starting on.

The competitiveness gets more competitive, not 'fix this because I don't want to try THAT hard.'

But what I said is true though, both teams can do it.

Leti the YetiJan 6, 20151 votes

you are gonna give riot the idea that they should nerf jungle exp unless you carry a machete ;l

reading the other responses, i honestly dont know if i fully interpret whats going on

Cale017Jan 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

you are gonna give riot the idea that they should nerf jungle exp unless you carry a machete ;l

reading the other responses, i honestly dont know if i fully interpret whats going on

That honestly might be what they should do. The issue here is that an ADC can take either krugs or gromp depending on what side of the map they're on and then arrive to lane slightly late, but with a level advantage that will let them press the lane and make up for lost CS by zoning the enemy laners or even possibly getting an early kill. The problem is that they're still allowing the enemy laners to get free CS by playing a gambit that doesn't pay off if they can't press that advantage, and that they're running the risk of making the jungler fall behind in farm or clearing ability. Both Krugs and Gromp are becoming more and more useful as junglers understand their strategic value in clearing out the jungle, Krug for being able to stun monsters and Gromp for increasing the speed a camp can be cleared through constant damage. Taking either of these from a jungler who has set certain time benchmarks in place throws off their game, and puts them slightly behind depending on how much their intended jungle path is mucked up by you taking a monster that isn't yours.

It'd be like if junglers sat in your lane for the first minion wave and stole every last hit from you. Sure, the minions are going to respawn, and quicker than a jungle camp will. But you're still going to be pissed that they're taking what you identify as your source for gold and experience, aren't you?

Leti the YetiJan 6, 20151 votes

that would depend on the jungler and the person and their route you can go ahead and poach a camp, as long as its not the one im starting with and not leash me, and I would still be perfectly fine lolz!

honestly I dont see it being useful... as you said, they would come into lane late and the other lane would have already accumulated some exp this lvl2 lead wont last for long

there is nothing that could possibly happen that could gimp my early junge for some lulzy reason from being afk to invasions to counter junglers to poachers, I'm too flexible for this shit