The jungle changes are what is really messing everything up. RIOT lets discuss this!

I have a love hate relationship with the jungle changes right now.. but overall I think they are bad for the health of the game.

These are some points, from my experiences I'd like riot to take in consideration.

For simplicity.. all these situations will be done from the perspective of The player (Me/I) winning.. For every winner there is a loser.. so keep that in mind when seeing the example from the losing side.. which is where the problems lie.

FIRST:

A The rift scuttles are TOO important. Too much experience and reward is tied up in them as well.

If I get both of them and both my buffs.. I've already overleveled the other jungle and he is going to have to work hard to catch up.. especially if I get the next.

If I get one of them and he gets one of them, and we both get our buffs.. then the game goes even for the present

If I get one, my team gets the other, and we both get our buffs.. I'm at a slight advantage.

B If I invade jungle and steal his buff, several things can happen.

1 If he dies.. I have time to take the rift scuttler and make my way to the second one. If he dies, his next move is going to be to go to his other buff or steal one of mine. It doesn't make a lot of sense to make the latter play because you already got set back hard. (A large majority of players assume you are headed back for your personal buff on the same side)

That gives me the choice of either going and taking the second scuttler or heading straight for the bush by his buff

Because he is dead. I had PLENTY of time to get the first rift scuttler. I can go gank him at his other buff easily if I wanted.. He will probably have used his pots in the invade and by the time we both get in position, he is taking a lot of damage from that other buff.. I come in full HP and mana. He is low on HP and getting hit by me and his buff. I can also be a dick and just smite it because he doesn't see me and isn't expecting it.. Its easier and beneficial to just kill them most of the time.. The kill puts them back in the base with no gold or exp for another round.

You come out on top almost every time. Which means you got another kill and took his other buff

Most teams don't leash you for the second.. its hard enough to get them to do it on the first sometimes.

So now.. with two rift scuttlers and two enemy buffs.. I go back and get my own buffs, and then work on cleaning out the minor camps.

I almost always get 3 buffs and two scuttlers when I play.. And very often end up with 4.

2 If I die and/or fail to get his buff.. it either goes even, or he clears the scuttlers and then on.

By getting the scuttlers and even just your own buffs, you over level the other jungle considerably, if you get their buffs it is even more drastic. I've easily been level 5 many times and running around hunting a level 2 jungle because I have all the camps and there aren't many up for the other jungle so I know where he is going.. I've also been the level 2, trying to get a camp while the level 5 jungle just hunts me down.

Guess how fast dragon and rift herald are going down with this kind of lead?

My general play book is grab all the buffs, scuttlers, clean half the jungle and go dragon all in the first 5-10 minutes.

SECOND

Lets go from the losing perspective now

The problem is... this leaks into the other players performance on the team.. Because of the drastic difference.. I can't gank their lanes, and the other jungle can.. further fueling his lead on good ganks. I also can't even think about doing dragon at the moment.

For me to catch up.. I have to either land a few good ganks 4 levels behind.. or CS my teams lanes..

The safe way is to farm a lane.. but that just drains that lane.. and pisses people off.. they either ragequit, start tilting, or make every attempt to out cs you. Even with an explanation as to why.

So now.. the only thing I can do.. is try to catch up.. without the ability to cs someones lane, minimal jungle camps, and a fucking monster lose somewhere in the bushes that will just oneshot me when he sees me.

When I fail to get my buffs.. I spend that whole game pretty much just dying and trying to find a camp that isn't long gone and avoiding the other jungle.. I might get lucky and when the game goes to teamfighting, I can make a minor recovery.. but generally.. I'm so far behind even the enemy support can just wail on me 1v1 and I can't do shit.|

I also have to do this, often while being yelled at by a bunch of screaming crying bitches that don't understand how far the game mechanics are putting me behind.

THIRD

I can have a decent jungle experience.. maybe neither jungle invades.. maybe we do.. but now.. I'm fighting my whole team and the other jungle for cs.

A Because of the massive gold, vision, mana return, and exp rift scuttlers give whoever kills it.. They are highly prized targets.

I can't count the times I'm fighting it and a team member runs up and last hits it

or the number of times someone leaves lane and kills it while I'm on my way to it.

or we are taking dragon persay.. and afterwards I go to take my scuttle, and the team decides to be REALLY HELPFUL and take it with me and someone last hits it not realizing they just drained me.

If I'm already behind.. this was my meal ticket to catch up.. now its gone. I start falling way behind.

B

The number of players leaving lane to grab camps.. especially midlane, is staggering and really causing harm.

I'm seeing a number of players still playing oldschool and running back in our jungle and grabbing camps..

In midlane this is my Raptors (almost said ghosts) and wolves.. from botlane they grab my golems.. and top grabs my frog.

Once or twice might not hurt me too bad.. in the old jungle, I wouldn't have gave a shit.. get fed fam.. now it is a matter of Jungler Life and Death.

But I played a game this week, where I invaded.. it went bad.. I decided to play safe.. the other jungle got 3 buffs and a scuttler.. my team grabbed the other.. and while I'm taking my blue.. mid grabbed my raptors. By the time I started frog.. bot lane grabbed my golemns.

I ran around looking for something to do.. because the jungle was cleared.. and I'm stuck on level 2 while everyone is hitting 5 and 6..

Reset comes up, and this time mid takes my raptors again, and this time top decided they needed my frog.

This is more common a thing in my experience than just a bad game.

Players are leaking into the jungle and it really. fucking. hurts..

C

When you do fall behind, and your team decides they have to be the carry, so they start grabbing your buffs and camps.. just putting you further behind (and increasing the toxicity of their comments) (I.E. STOP FEEDING ALL YOU FUCKING DO IS DIE -- well I'm so far behind I can't survive and it aint helping that I can't even get my wolves because you guys are eating the jungle alive)

D

The hardcore carry midlaner who decided from the start that he is the only one that can win the game and to do so, he is going to need every camp he can leave lane for, especially if you (the jungler) warmed it up and leashed it for him. This guy right here.. when you meet him.. almost always means I'm losing the game.

FOURTH

The number of times, I've been getting leashed, smite the buff a little too early, leaving it with 4 hp and a team-mate getting the last hit by mistake.

CONCLUSION

Like I said.. I have a love hate relationship with it..

I recognize the problems with it, so I've been capitalizing on it. I just play jungle now because of this and I'm going on massive winstreaks in ranked, where before it was a big mess.. I've even almost made it out of bronze (all you toxis can go ahead and start telling me how my opinions don't matter because of my ranked - but ill just ignore you anyway.. everyone's opinion is valid) for the first time in years.

However, it really puts the game in a bad state..

And I think the changes to jungle more so than anything else, may be whats hurting the other changes..

I am of the mind that if jungle was more stable, these other patches wouldn't have such a big impact on the game, and people might start enjoying them.

I really think there is a huge oversight in how negatively it impacts your chances to win if the other jungle gets a strong lead, because at least in lane.. you stay close in level and can always catch up on CS... in jungle.. its a death sentence..

And even one player falling behind by this drastic amount effects everyone.

If I could change anything right now.. I'd make it so that killing a camp sends that exp buff and gold to the jungle, regardless of which player killed it.. or at least making it so that if the jungle is in a decent radius of the camp, he gets priority on it. This would kill the trolling and theft.. Sure you would have teams clearing out the other buffs to give their jungle an advantage.. but this is way more adaptable for the player base and could create some interesting dynamics.

Also maybe instead consider something along the lines of the AP supp item mechanics.. If you take jungle cs, then there could be a lock out on regular cs. This would stop the team from bleeding me.

I'd also lower the importance of exp from the scuttler and put that exp back in the camps.. Maybe even make it so scuttler gave global exp and gold.. that would really make it a contest.

Pull these issues in line and I don't think Damage creep, the adc changes, and everything else will be as caustic in the eyes of the player base..

This is kind of long.. I'd prefer discussion of individual points to be along the lines to be quoted or refered to by the Number Letter and Subpoint (I.e. 1A 1B1 1B2 2A etc) if possible so we all know what we are refering to if possible.