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[Evidence]The MMR system seems really broken.Would greatly appreciate if Riot took a look. [Diamond]

My Carrot Broke··24 votes·8,844 views

TL;DR - Just read it lol

I have exactly 150 games of ranked solo queue played in season 5 right now. That's 84 wins and 66 losses, meaning that my win rate is exactly 56% as of right now.

Two days ago I started at Diamond 5 approximately 50 points, I then proceeded to win every game until 78 points in Diamond 4. This doesn't sound that impressive until you realize that I was gaining either 11, 13, or 15 League Points per win with no exceptions. That amounts to winning 11 straight games in a row. The evidence of this is attached as a picture of my ranked games match history from the League match history website.

You see that's all fine and dandy until you realize that on my 12th game, which I lost, I also lost 26 LP. That seems incredibly unbalanced and simply unfair. There should no way I should be expected to hold above a 56% win rate and on on streaks that increase my MMR that are anything even near the 11 win streak.

The next game that I won i got +19 and then -25 the next game that I lost, and then it just went back to being exactly what it was prior. HOW IS THIS FAIR?

If there is anything I'm not doing properly here, let me know, I would greatly appreciate actually being able to climb (and not relying on absolutely insane and mostly lucky win streaks) the ladder instead of being stuck in Diamond 5 when I was floating around mid diamond 1 last season......

EDIT:

Some people are arguing that this is fair, yet they don't understand that I'm simply losing twice the LP that I am gaining while maintaining a hugely positive win rate, and going on massive streaks (the 11 win streak isn't the only one, I've gone on 7 and 4 win streaks prior as well, which still didn't result me in getting out of diamond 5, which is plain silly). Winning 56% of the time in a game that's designed for you to maintain a 50% win streak is a lot more significant than it seems, especially with the 150 game sample size, in which I straight up won 18 games more than I have lost. I've never complained about the clamping I experienced in Diamond 1 pre and post Master tier addition, but getting this clamping in diamond 5, where I simply KNOW that I am capable of moving ladder to something higher is just not understandable. It makes no sense to expect a player to win 3 games for every 1 that they lose in order to gain 13 LP, and then still have the risk of losing double what you gained the next game. And again, I don't have a negative win rate, this might have been a good way to allow players to improve, but I'm obviously winning more, just not enough to keep up with the silly standards.

/rant

EDIT 2:

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Dyrus 117W 89L (Win Ratio 57%) Challenger 1 475 LP 117W Riven's Cutthroats

Dyrus's win rate is 1% higher than mine, yet he somehow belongs in mid challenger while I apparently don't deserve Diamond 5. I got placed in Platinum 2 after promos, meaning that even if he got placed in Platinum 1, (the highest you can be placed I'm pretty sure) he should be around a tier higher than me, not 6 tiers higher than me, considering we have a similar amount of games and a similar win rate. CAN SOMEONE STILL SAY THIS MAKES SENSE?

*Oh and thanks ToiletteOfDoom for the statistic.

70 Comments

Art Of Solo Q7 votes

The mmr system is broken. No logic can argue it, yes there are points people use but then players such as ToiletteOfDoom point out the flaws and all of a sudden those who support the current mmr system cant object/debate those flaws.

Instead they say things like this "I don't really have anything for your Strawman argument with the casino."

^At this point its obvious this player and others that upvoted this post don't understand ToiletteOfDooms points.

My opinion on mmr is its needs a retune or maybe even just scrap it for something more sensible. To be honest tho, in a team game its very difficult to create an accurate system for ranked. I don't believe I am smart enough to do it, so I don't mock rito for it either.

I just hope they are working on this and at least trying to improve the current form.

My Carrot Broke6 votes

MMR determines LP, always been that way

KirbyCake2 votes

seems working fine to me. current d4 and still gaining +26/27 despite my atrocious score.

Kazaashi2 votes

Don't fret. If you are truly meant to climb, then LP gains will even out. Just remember that the system isn't designed to facilitate climbing or make you feel good, it is designed to give you a 50% chance to win every game.

Xela Syab1 votes

{quoted}

Don't fret. If you are truly meant to climb, then LP gains will even out. Just remember that the system isn't designed to facilitate climbing or make you feel good, it is designed to give you a 50% chance to win every game.

you have a 50% chance to win regardless of any system. but is it fair to have to win multiple times consecutively and barely go up one rank and lose twice or triple what you gain?

Kazaashi2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Xela Syab,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Md1slJi,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2015-03-06T15:58:47.900+0000)

you have a 50% chance to win regardless of any system. but is it fair to have to win multiple times consecutively and barely go up one rank and lose twice or triple what you gain?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

Elo, which MMR is based off of, uses statistics to determine your skill level and attempts to place you in a ranking that will give you a 50% chance to beat any given opponent you are matched against. This is easier to do in chess, which the Elo system was designed for since it is 1v1, but essentially that is how MMR works.

Are you going to argue that a full Bronze team has a real chance against a full Diamond team? Sure the Bronzies may get lucky here or there, but the Diamond team is going to win WAAAAAAAAY more games than the Bronze ones over a set of games.

Xela Syab1 votes

{quoted}

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

Elo, which MMR is based off of, uses statistics to determine your skill level and attempts to place you in a ranking that will give you a 50% chance to beat any given opponent you are matched against. This is easier to do in chess, which the Elo system was designed for since it is 1v1, but essentially that is how MMR works.

Are you going to argue that a full Bronze team has a real chance against a full Diamond team? Sure the Bronzies may get lucky here or there, but the Diamond team is going to win WAAAAAAAAY more games than the Bronze ones over a set of games.

y'know what yeah i'm gonna argue it cause normal players have to play against gold/diamonds all the time.

Kazaashi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Xela Syab,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Md1slJi,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-06T17:42:39.765+0000)

y'know what yeah i'm gonna argue it cause normal players have to play against gold/diamonds all the time.

They may win a game or two, sure, but over a series of 10 games, the diamonds will win the majority of them. Ranked isn't about 1 game, its about a series of games.

Xela Syab1 votes

{quoted}

They may win a game or two, sure, but over a series of 10 games, the diamonds will win the majority of them. Ranked isn't about 1 game, its about a series of games.

yeah but the ranked system in this game is terrible. You literally have to dedicate almost a whole day just to hopefully get one rank up.

Aazzlano1 votes

one day? if you could dedicate a whole day and go up one whole division, you could go up a tier in 5 days.. lol?

I wish it were that easy.

Slushi Simcambi1 votes

He probably means something more along the lines of... 12 hours of gameplay being about a day.

Mikal Pikal1 votes

The problem is that who you face has nothing to do with RANK, but rank is the only thing that matters. In fact, you can't even see MMR. Why even have a ranking system if, as a diamond, he only plays against plats?

Kazaashi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mikal Pikal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Md1slJi,comment-id=0008000000000001,timestamp=2015-03-06T19:05:18.562+0000)

The problem is that who you face has nothing to do with RANK, but rank is the only thing that matters. In fact, you can't even see MMR. Why even have a ranking system if, as a diamond, he only plays against plats?

Cause if the player keeps an over 50% winrate, they will eventually make it to Diamond if they play enough games.

Mikal Pikal1 votes

No. He is IN diamond, but his MMR is below diamond, which is why his LP gains are smaller for wins than for losses. Therefore, even if he is in diamond, his MMR dictates that the people he faces are below diamond. Because he is matched with lower-than-diamond MMR players he could conceivably go down in rank by winning 51% of his games.

In my humble opinion, the MMR system makes no sense when used in concert with the rank system. It should be one or the other. Diamond V should face diamond V's regardless of MMR or as close to diamond V as possible.

It probably makes sense somehow, but I haven't had it explained in such a way that it does. Why does rank need to be "corrected" based on MMR? If he doesn't belong in diamond, then he should lose more than 50% of the time when playing with diamond players. As it currently is, he wins more than 50% because he faces platinum players, but remains in diamond for some reason. I feel like MMR should not exist. If he is diamond he should have the chance to play with other diamonds to determine if he can win more than 50% of the time or not.

SummonerSquid2 votes

I noticed a small clap in low-mid D5, but it wasn't too bad. Just play through it; it might take you a few more tens of games, but you'll equalize.

Kazaashi2 votes

Yes I think it is fair, because 1 game is not important in Ranked. Think of it this way:

In a set of 20 games you win 13 games and lose 7, but since your MMR is lower than the league you are in, you gain 12 per win and lose 20 per loss, that is 156 LP from winning and -140 LP from losing, leaving a net gain of 16 lP. That sounds pretty pitiful, but you have to keep in mind that the system is always reevaluating your rank and if you keep up a winrate like that the MMR will rise and you will begin to get more per win and lose less per loss.

S H A Y C 05 votes

Its so unfair...that even your detailed explanation of how fair it is sounds like a bunch of bullshit and gets me frustrated, lol!

Im stuck in bronze...working on it, dont hate :P

but i get 20 for a win, woot woot, also lose 25-30 for a loss....now tell me sir, how the hell does that sound fair? lets use your fun 20 game math examplefyi a 50% win rate for me means a net loss...just sayin

13 wins= 260lp 7 loss = 175lp

wins-losses=85

so in order to get to promos i have to go on a really good streak or go 14/6 which is a 70% win rate...I have to have a 70% win rate to get from bronze 5 to bronze 4...or go on a hot streak and just right moment.

Dyrus doesnt have a 70% win rate in solo Q

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Dyrus 117W 89L (Win Ratio 57%) Challenger 1 475 LP 117W Riven's Cutthroats

granted at this time his last 20 game win rate is currently 75% - Go Dyrus!!!!!! TSM!!!! TSM!!!!

But i shouldn't have to be as good as Dyrus to go from Bronze 5 to Bronze 4 That just doesnt seem right.

Kazaashi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ToiletteOfDoom ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Md1slJi,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2015-03-06T16:53:49.682+0000)

Its so unfair...that even your detailed explanation of how fair it is sounds like a bunch of bullshit and gets me frustrated, lol!

Im stuck in bronze...working on it, dont hate :P

but i get 20 for a win, woot woot, also lose 25-30 for a loss....now tell me sir, how the hell does that sound fair? lets use your fun 20 game math examplefyi a 50% win rate for me means a net loss...just sayin

13 wins= 260lp 7 loss = 175lp

wins-losses=85

so in order to get to promos i have to go on a really good streak or go 14/6 which is a 70% win rate...I have to have a 70% win rate to get from bronze 5 to bronze 4...or go on a hot streak and just right moment.

Dyrus doesnt have a 70% win rate in solo Q

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Dyrus 117W 89L (Win Ratio 57%) Challenger 1 475 LP 117W Riven's Cutthroats

granted at this time his last 20 game win rate is currently 75% - Go Dyrus!!!!!! TSM!!!! TSM!!!!

But i shouldn't have to be as good as Dyrus to go from Bronze 5 to Bronze 4 That just doesnt seem right.

That sounds as designed. If you are good enough to climb then you would have a higher than 50% winrate. With a 70% winrate you will climb. It just might take a while.

The system is not designed to make you climb. It is designed to give you a 50% chance to win any given game.

S H A Y C 04 votes

im not saying that it isnt working as intended, im saying that as it is working isnt right. you should be able to climb slowly with anything over 50% win rate, i mean if the best champ in the game has a 54% win rate, then how can you be expected to do better than that?more than 50% win rate means you win more than you lose...that should equate to climbing the division, and then you have your promos and the quality control line, which btw you only need a 66% win rate in promos (2 out of 3) to gain a division...which is less than the amount needed to get there...just sayin. but 70% is higher than win 2, lose 1...if i were to do this i could never move on, seems unfair

EDIT - The system that is designed to give you a 50% chance to win is very different from what decides how many points gained or lossed. you can maintain a 50% chance to win, and allow people to climb based on winning more than losing. but as it is now, you have to win more than you win more than you lose...its bad english intended to emphasize the point that i believe the system is asking a lot more from players than is fair. Its kind of like my work evaluations, there are 2 categories, meets expectations and exceeds expectations...the better i do the more they expect from me, so even if i did just as superb a job as i did every year before that i can only meet expectations unless i go above and beyond EXCELLENCE, you should get an excellent review for excellent performance instead of getting, you did you job as we expected now move along.

Kazaashi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ToiletteOfDoom ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Md1slJi,comment-id=000a000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-06T18:17:53.859+0000)

im not saying that it isnt working as intended, im saying that as it is working isnt right. you should be able to climb slowly with anything over 50% win rate, i mean if the best champ in the game has a 54% win rate, then how can you be expected to do better than that?more than 50% win rate means you win more than you lose...that should equate to climbing the division, and then you have your promos and the quality control line, which btw you only need a 66% win rate in promos (2 out of 3) to gain a division...which is less than the amount needed to get there...just sayin. but 70% is higher than win 2, lose 1...if i were to do this i could never move on, seems unfair

That is what happens. It is just very very very hard to see with only anecdotal evidence.

S H A Y C 03 votes

anecdotal evidence....??? "I dont think this word means what you think it means" -Inigo Montoya-

adjective (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

Ok, so it is very difficult to actually obtain the math that generates the numbers we are all getting, so all we have are "personal accounts" rather than research or evidence. however, i think there is enough anecdotal or personal accounts to back up that you lose more than you gain, which even you have not debated.

Therefor any argument based on that still holds. Whether the system is "fair" or "right" is a very personal and individual matter. But in this case, i feel that there are enough people that feel the same way.

lets take the same statistics that we have, anecdotal or not, and put it in a different light.

Im at a casino. I am playing a game that has a relatively flat win or lose dollar amount. If i win, i get $100 dollars and if i lose they take $250. Would anyone ever be at this table? No, because even though gambling always favors the house no gambler would take those odds even if every game you played gave you 50% odds to win. You wouldnt be there either and you know it, but with league you feel it to be fair and right just becuase the difference is video game vs your wallet. In the end its still numbers, its still a game, and its unfair.

Kazaashi3 votes

[{quoted}](name=ToiletteOfDoom ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Md1slJi,comment-id=000a00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-06T18:49:08.437+0000)

anecdotal evidence....??? "I dont think this word means what you think it means" -Inigo Montoya-

adjective (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

Ok, so it is very difficult to actually obtain the math that generates the numbers we are all getting, so all we have are "personal accounts" rather than research or evidence. however, i think there is enough anecdotal or personal accounts to back up that you lose more than you gain, which even you have not debated.

Therefor any argument based on that still holds. Whether the system is "fair" or "right" is a very personal and individual matter. But in this case, i feel that there are enough people that feel the same way.

lets take the same statistics that we have, anecdotal or not, and put it in a different light.

Im at a casino. I am playing a game that has a relatively flat win or lose dollar amount. If i win, i get $100 dollars and if i lose they take $250. Would anyone ever be at this table? No, because even though gambling always favors the house no gambler would take those odds even if every game you played gave you 50% odds to win. You wouldnt be there either and you know it, but with league you feel it to be fair and right just becuase the difference is video game vs your wallet. In the end its still numbers, its still a game, and its unfair.

I'm not saying that LP gain/loss discrepancies don't exit. They totally do, but only in Clamping seen in Diamond and if your MMR is crazy different than your ranking.

I personally gain 20+ for a win and lose about 10-13 for a loss.

I don't really have anything for your Strawman argument with the casino.

S H A Y C 03 votes

Straw man aside...whatever the heck that is - you are winning more than you are losing per match which is what was happening for me last season, for some reason whatever changes they made this season don't seem right and if i got a similar ration of points per win/loss i wouldnt be complaining and i would feel the system is right same as you.

So many of my plat friends went 7/10 in their promos and dropped 3+ divisions which is nothing more than evidence of change to their system. So, in light of that it is quite possible that you are basing your stance off of how it "used to work" and things may be different now, just something for you to consider.

I have no idea what clamping is and would be grateful for an explanation.

S H A Y C 01 votes

I found this at riot's website and it helped me understand. A little background of me, i only started playing the game at the end of season 4 just before gnar came out, so a little ignorance is to be expected.

WHY DOES EVERYONE EARN DIFFERENT AMOUNTS OF LEAGUE POINTS?

If your MMR is significantly lower than where the system believes you should be for the division you are in, then your LP gains will be reduced and LP loss will be increased. Alternatively, if your MMR is significantly higher compared to the average your current tier or division, you will gain more LP and lose less. You may even skip promotion series or advance multiple tiers if your MMR significantly outweighs your league.

This actually helps understand a little bit. So since im getting roughly the same amount most of time for win/loss and sometimes a tad more for loss, then the system has determed i am either right where i belong or a bit behind on occasion when i go on a life sucks streak :P

Having a bit of light shed on things loosens my argument a bit...or really just squashes it to the ground i guess, lol..damn it i had losing (-_-) sad panda.....

So, going back to the original poster, it seems the system has determined he belongs at a lower division than he is in and thats why he loses so much more than he wins, is this correct?

If that is correct can i assume that winning at some point will raise his mmr to a level that he will even out and eventually gain more than he losses?

Kazaashi2 votes

[{quoted}](name=ToiletteOfDoom ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Md1slJi,comment-id=000a00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-06T19:50:12.094+0000)

I found this at riot's website and it helped me understand. A little background of me, i only started playing the game at the end of season 4 just before gnar came out, so a little ignorance is to be expected.

WHY DOES EVERYONE EARN DIFFERENT AMOUNTS OF LEAGUE POINTS?

If your MMR is significantly lower than where the system believes you should be for the division you are in, then your LP gains will be reduced and LP loss will be increased. Alternatively, if your MMR is significantly higher compared to the average your current tier or division, you will gain more LP and lose less. You may even skip promotion series or advance multiple tiers if your MMR significantly outweighs your league.

This actually helps understand a little bit. So since im getting roughly the same amount most of time for win/loss and sometimes a tad more for loss, then the system has determed i am either right where i belong or a bit behind on occasion when i go on a life sucks streak :P

Having a bit of light shed on things loosens my argument a bit...or really just squashes it to the ground i guess, lol..damn it i had losing (-_-) sad panda.....

So, going back to the original poster, it seems the system has determined he belongs at a lower division than he is in and thats why he loses so much more than he wins, is this correct?

If that is correct can i assume that winning at some point will raise his mmr to a level that he will even out and eventually gain more than he losses?

Bingo! You are correct! /confettiiandstreamers

I've been playing since S2, when everything was an Elo ladder and was just a big frustrating grind.

Also: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

S H A Y C 01 votes

I am really happy that i finally understand how the system works, and i have a way to tell how im doing based on points won/lost. so thats a win.

Strawman:

i wasnt fabricating your argument at all, i was using an analogy to explain my side. i made very little reference to your side of the argument aside from addressing "anecdotal" and a vague reference to you advocating the opposite of my stance. really neat phrase that made you look really smart, but misplaced application.

In the future, try not to use fancy wording to make others look stupid just to do it. Its rude. That doesnt help your argument at all, the second you start attacking the person and not the topic, you're not an intellectual being that is debating a concept, you're a bully or at best just a jerk.

I am going to give you the benefit of doubt and say that like most people you read it very quickly, and since you were predisposed to disagree with the entirety of the text prior to reading it, and you probably didn't pay much attention to any of it, you misinterpreted the text and you're not really a bad person.

Kazaashi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ToiletteOfDoom ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Md1slJi,comment-id=000a0000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-06T21:31:28.364+0000)

I am really happy that i finally understand how the system works, and i have a way to tell how im doing based on points won/lost. so thats a win.

Strawman:

i wasnt fabricating your argument at all, i was using an analogy to explain my side. i made very little reference to your side of the argument aside from addressing "anecdotal" and a vague reference to you advocating the opposite of my stance. really neat phrase that made you look really smart, but misplaced application.

In the future, try not to use fancy wording to make others look stupid just to do it. Its rude. That doesnt help your argument at all, the second you start attacking the person and not the topic, you're not an intellectual being that is debating a concept, you're a bully or at best just a jerk.

I am going to give you the benefit of doubt and say that like most people you read it very quickly, and since you were predisposed to disagree with the entirety of the text prior to reading it, and you probably didn't pay much attention to any of it, you misinterpreted the text and you're not really a bad person.

I totally didn't mean to come off as a bully or anything, I just wanted to help ya understand and I am VERY glad you learned something. :)))

I thought it was a Strawman, because you rephrased my argument to be that the OP's LP gain/loss discrepancy was fixed and wouldn't change in the future. My point to all of this is that it is a complex and fluid system that often does things that aren't readily apparent.

Add me as a friend, I'm glad to find someone willing to listen to others and then research their stuff to form an opinion. Very hard to find these days in LoL.

S H A Y C 02 votes

since we really arent debating anything anymore, lol, lets just say i wasnt trying to rephrase your argument i was trying to rephrase mine...miscommunication...done and over with.

assuming your summoner name is Kazaashi, i most certainly will. besides im trying to put a 5's team together and only have 3 (^_^)

its me, my buddy (bronze 2) this guy we played with last night (gold something) he was really fun to play with, he had us rolling on curse voice every time he was outplaying, lots of energy and humility when he gets rolled on, really looking forward to playing with him again. Ill ad you in game, look forward to having some fun

Juicester1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ToiletteOfDoom ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Md1slJi,comment-id=000a00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-06T19:50:12.094+0000)

I found this at riot's website and it helped me understand. A little background of me, i only started playing the game at the end of season 4 just before gnar came out, so a little ignorance is to be expected.

WHY DOES EVERYONE EARN DIFFERENT AMOUNTS OF LEAGUE POINTS?

If your MMR is significantly lower than where the system believes you should be for the division you are in, then your LP gains will be reduced and LP loss will be increased. Alternatively, if your MMR is significantly higher compared to the average your current tier or division, you will gain more LP and lose less. You may even skip promotion series or advance multiple tiers if your MMR significantly outweighs your league.

This actually helps understand a little bit. So since im getting roughly the same amount most of time for win/loss and sometimes a tad more for loss, then the system has determed i am either right where i belong or a bit behind on occasion when i go on a life sucks streak :P

Having a bit of light shed on things loosens my argument a bit...or really just squashes it to the ground i guess, lol..damn it i had losing (-_-) sad panda.....

So, going back to the original poster, it seems the system has determined he belongs at a lower division than he is in and thats why he loses so much more than he wins, is this correct?

If that is correct can i assume that winning at some point will raise his mmr to a level that he will even out and eventually gain more than he losses?

No. What that means is that if you are playing better than the system believes you to be, they will punish you for it. I'm by no means a diamond player, but I hit mid golds and found my mmr was much lower than the average in that rank. It also explains why the system kept matching me with silver 5's and the like, while I was playing against gold and plat players. The system assumes that everyone you are playing with wants to win, which is a horrible assumption. It also assumes that half of these players won't whine/cry/rage quit the moment one, small thing does not go their way. Yet we all continue to play, so Riot has no need to address any of these issues.

Pryotra3 votes

Except that MMR is supposed to adapt. If you get on a winstreak, like OP did, MMR should realize that you are consistantly better than your opponents, in which, iirc, it puts you in a game that it does not believe you can win, to really measure how good you are. This sounds like it happened.

However, in that "unwinnable game" 2 things don't look like they happened. 1) The MMR didn't look like it adjusted at all, and 2) The MMR of the opponents should have made the loss less painful. Neither of which seem to have happened.

Overall, Matchmaker should have a mechanic built in to where it recognizes and tests if it's prediction is way off base. That way, this sort of clamping is limited.

Kazaashi1 votes

{quoted}

Except that MMR is supposed to adapt. If you get on a winstreak, like OP did, MMR should realize that you are consistantly better than your opponents, in which, iirc, it puts you in a game that it does not believe you can win, to really measure how good you are. This sounds like it happened.

However, in that "unwinnable game" 2 things don't look like they happened. 1) The MMR didn't look like it adjusted at all, and 2) The MMR of the opponents should have made the loss less painful. Neither of which seem to have happened.

Overall, Matchmaker should have a mechanic built in to where it recognizes and tests if it's prediction is way off base. That way, this sort of clamping is limited.

This sort of clamping is that very mechanic you speak of.

Pryotra2 votes

{quoted}

This sort of clamping is that very mechanic you speak of.

It should be. But from all appearances, it didn't seem to use the conclusion to "correct" the MMR. So, either the mechanic isn't fullfilling it's duty, or it is but the corrections don't seem to be happening/aren't sufficient.

Ariaflux1 votes

I do think it's correcting, because after the 26 LP loss, he gained 19 LP for a win, which is significantly higher than his previous LP gains from winning. I think that the MMR can be blamed to be slow to adapt, but nonetheless it is adapting.

Pryotra1 votes

Hmmm. That is a point, but as Kazaashi said:

1 game is not important in Ranked.

Who knows? Maybe that was another "unwinnable game" test that he actually beat? We don't know the true inner workings of the system, so it's all purely speculation outside of what Rioters have mentioned.

Now, if OP continues to gain higher amounts of LP, we can derive that his MMR did adjust. If it goes quickly back to regular gains, then we can derive that the MMR didn't change.

AriCei1 votes

Related to this, I find that I lose more for a loss than I gain for a win, and I'm in mid silver. The people I get matched against (which i assume reflects my mmr) are often in upper gold. My comment is: If I maintain an above 50% win rate, against opponents usually ranked higher than me, shouldn't I be in that division? And why am I still losing more lp than I gain??

Furry Balls2 votes

You act like rito cares.... They dont.

Noraver2 votes

It's because you're playing Riven.

Stop that.

Stop it now.

My Carrot Broke1 votes

Thanks for the traction everyone and thanks ToiletteofDoom for your statistic on Dyrus. Hopefully I can get a Riot personal to comment on this.

UPfreely1 votes

people don't like the way it works, i get that but the system isn't broken, this is just the way it works. either the system thinks your low elo wins don't mean much(deflating your true win% at ur true MMR) or maybe it has a mechanism that slows people down with winstreaks i could keep spitballing but thats just all it is, we don't really know the formulas behind the system so we just need to work with it.

The Queen Viper2 votes

... the way the system works, is broken. Simple as that.

My Carrot Broke1 votes

Kazaashi:

I was Diamond 1 last season, 1 win away from master promos at one point. Not to sound arrogant, but I know for a fact I am better than the players I'm currently playing with. I've played this game for many many years and something like that isn't very hard to assess.

Jelly Mac:

Riven has nothing to do with anything bud, and your opinion can be kept to yourself, especially considering that riven has quite a few hard counters and that the only reason I play her is for fun ^_^

Kazaashi1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Duh Monsta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4Md1slJi,comment-id=0016,timestamp=2015-03-06T22:16:59.226+0000)

Kazaashi:

I was Diamond 1 last season, 1 win away from master promos at one point. Not to sound arrogant, but I know for a fact I am better than the players I'm currently playing with. I've played this game for many many years and something like that isn't very hard to assess.

Jelly Mac:

Riven has nothing to do with anything bud, and your opinion can be kept to yourself, especially considering that riven has quite a few hard counters and that the only reason I play her is for fun ^_^

That really sucks man, I really hope you can get it sorted out. I'm not trying to be mean or dismiss your point. Good luck and keep up the wins!

My Carrot Broke1 votes

It's no problem, Most people disagree with the thread, meaning the problem isn't as common as I thought it to be. A lot of my friends are also experiencing this, so I thought it affected a lot more people than it did, but it may be that I'm doing something wrong I guess. W/e we'll see what happens, gonna end up making a smurf to reset mmr if anything, since Riot thinks it's fair.

Teradactyal1 votes

I have a similar problem gaining 10-12 with a win but loosing 30 for a loss. We are being punished for improving.

PL551 votes

When I go even with my ranked games I gain more lp than I lose. But if I break a win streak then I lose A LOT of lp while I still get the same amount of lp for winning.

AClONgb2me1 votes

Its pretty much if you go on 1 big losing streak you are fu**ed for ever because not only is your mmr now bad but it's horribly hard to get up. You pretty much have to go on insane winning streaks and hope you get lucky and get good teams every single game to get your mmr back up. On top of that i have noticed when in losing streaks you get clumped with other people int he same situation and just get these horrid tilted teams, including yourself. As to where when im winning i keep getting these great teams in a row.

captainkaiger1 votes

The system in fair in the same way that Dark Souls is fair. If you keep winning, you'll start being rewarded more and more, but the moment you lose, all that progress is gone and you get to start over again. Happen to die again before you reach your bloodstain, it becomes permanent.

It's fair, but it's a punishing system where you can have more wins than losses, and still go down in rank. Last year as an example I went from Silver 3 to Bronze 3 because I had the misfortune of not winning more than 70% of my games. I like to think that I understand a little more about the game than the average person, but in silver and bronze games more often than not are lost simply because you can't get teammates to play nice for 30 minutes or act as said team. I'm usually jungling or supporting, and wholly opposed to splitpushing simply because it always annoys me when people do it for entire games. ( Short anecdote: I played a game yesterday where entire enemy team had TP and would split push.) While it wins games, it just seems wholly dissatisfying to fight minions and towers instead of people. But I digress.

League should have a better gain system, where even if you lose, you can at least gain a couple LP if you do well, have good objective control, (more for me and others like me) have high assist rates, etc etc.

A Curious Frog1 votes

The system is horrendously broken, it rewards a win/lose ratio and couldn't care less about your individual performance.

If you go on a loss streak you may as well quit the season as it will always believe that's where you belong. even if you went 30/0 in the next game and lost, it would still take 20/25 points of you for it.

It SHOULD be your performance that decides the amount of lp you get and win/loses will award slightly more or less respectively.

It's always been like that in most league systems, why....... because it works but this system is seriously flawed.

Frap Achiino1 votes

Why can't riot just give you so much for a win and so much for a loss, I'm tired of having shit teammates and I lose and lose tons of lp, I don't give a shit about this game now, I now know why people troll, because the elo/mmr system is such bullshit

Stevev451 votes
  1. The LP system is a lagging indicator of the MMR system. -So even though the LP system put you in Diamond 4 (via your win streak) your MMR number is lower than the average Diamond 4 player. So the LP system is trying to bring you back down to Diamond 5. You should ignore it and just just focus on winning, if you care about your rank.

I had the opposite problem in silver. I would win 30 Lp for wins and lose 12 on losses.

  1. The MMR system takes into account who you win and lose to, so you can't just compare your win percentage.

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