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Karthus jgl shouldn't be a thing!

ClickClickClick··27 votes·9,350 views

So I'm not the highest elo, peaked p1 last season but I think karthus jgl is just game breaking right now. Not sure if this is such a problem in higher elos but In lower elos below mid diamond I don't think teams have the co-ordination to consistently shut down an afk farming late game beast. You take one bad trade and you are dead, now I'm willing to say this is fine as long as there is a way to punish a karthus however what happens is ok maybe he gets killed once or twice in the jgl if your lucky. But for the rest of the game he is just sitting there scaling waiting for cross map snipes getting fed with 0 effort. And then when the main objectives spawn he can press r, you look over at your half health support pinging everyone out and the adc scrambling to life steal off anything and that's how you lost baron/elder dragon. Who in their right mind would even think about picking a farming jungler like shyvana when karthus jgl exists in its current state, I mean its absurd. Having said this lane is Karthus punishable, he lacks mobility and is squishy early game which are his weaknesses but when you can ignore all of that and still have the amount of impact he has there is something wrong.I will be banning karthus from now on until he is no longer viable in the jungle, I don't think lane karthus should be nerfed despite his kit in itself being toxic so something along the lines of just making it very inefficient for him to jungle would be ideal.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't claim to know this to be fact. Maybe I'm just bad and don't know how to play against this but this is just my opinion.

76 Comments

MLDzXnRRR19 votes

Karthus was garbage tier, but the reworked dark harvest made him into infinite scaling champ...

Warlord Rhinark17 votes

I thought we were supposed to diversify roles, not restrict them.

saltran7 votes

I though we were supposed to restrict roles, not diversify them.

ClickClickClick7 votes

I'm all for diversifying roles, as I said on another comment just now I don't agree with the Camille changes and other champions who used to jungle being forced out. At the same time I don't see any of their kits being as problematic as karthus currently. Wards can see a Camille coming, but unless u huddle together in a bard ult or something what is the counterplay if you are an ad champion. A 1 time stopwatch? great.

Warlord Rhinark5 votes

{quoted}

what is the counterplay if you are an ad champion. A 1 time stopwatch?

https://i.imgur.com/ZesRntN.png/img and item 3156

EDIT: Forgot this item 3814 too

Starcraft243ver4 votes

What ?

item 3814 is the ultimate AD Counterplay to karthus R

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

{quoted}

What ?

item 3814 is the ultimate AD Counterplay to karthus R

Yeah I forgot.

Thanks.

ClickClickClick1 votes

So I can think of one adc that would build edge of night (mf). Hextrinker is a must buy but even then its a 300 something shield. Karthus has his ult on a 96 second cooldown with 40% cdr lvl 16. His ult is doing 550 base damage+75% of his ap ratio. so if he has 600 ap which is very reasonable with a deathcap at that stage then that is 1k damage to most adcs without taking into account runes. Multiple champions forced to buy hextrinkers. There is no other champion in the game able to dish out that kind of damage to 5 people at once without even being at the fight, all I am saying is if you are going to have a champion like this make it so they cant hide in the jgl all game and reach a point further than what I described for free.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

So I can think of one adc that would build edge of night (mf). Hextrinker is a must buy but even then its a 300 something shield. Karthus has his ult on a 96 second cooldown with 40% cdr lvl 16. His ult is doing 550 base damage+75% of his ap ratio. so if he has 600 ap which is very reasonable with a deathcap at that stage then that is 1k damage to most adcs without taking into account runes.

I think you're forgetting the huge chunk of Magic Resistance you get out of building MoM here.

Maw of Malmortius, by itself, gives 50 Magic Resistance, in addition to it's Lifeline Shield.

This 50 MR, coupled with the average of 40 MR that most Ranged champions have at level 18, gives 90 MR (rounded up for simplicity).

90 MR is going to reduce Karthus' damage by 47%, almost halving it.

Coupled with the Lifeline Shield, this is plenty counterplay.

There is no other champion in the game able to dish out that kind of damage to 5 people at once without even being at the fight, all I am saying is if you are going to have a champion like this make it so they cant hide in the jgl all game and reach a point further than what I described for free.

Again, I do not see why invading him is supposedly such an impossible task.

BigFBear3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4K5cFOfk,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-31T13:13:32.372+0000)

I thought we were supposed to diversify roles, not restrict them.

Diversity is good but read the op post. He is right. Karthus jungle can just go in farm mode without being in danger any time and can punish every trade from a save distance. Also he can secure every Objective like Drake's/Baron by setting entire enemy team on half HP.

Warlord Rhinark6 votes

{quoted}

Diversity is good but read the op post. He is right. Karthus jungle can just go in farm mode without being in danger any time

Invade him?

Karthus is one of the least mobile champions in the game.

All he has is a slow you have to walk through and isn't that big until he puts skill points into it.

and can punish every trade from a save distance. Also he can secure every Objective like Drake's/Baron by setting entire enemy team on half HP.

Mid lane Karthus (and Karthus played in pretty much any role) can do the same thing you're describing here.

So you don't even hate Jungle Karthus, you just hate Karthus.

Sillae3 votes

{quoted}

Diversity is good but read the op post. He is right. Karthus jungle can just go in farm mode without being in danger any time and can punish every trade from a save distance. Also he can secure every Objective like Drake's/Baron by setting entire enemy team on half HP.

He can.. already do that?

PhearBunny16 votes

Jungle Karthas needs to not be a thing. All he does is farm, and press R, and in doing so, out performs every jungler in the game.

Its literally the most uninteractive gameplay in the history of LoL

ClickClickClick10 votes

Agreed, his kit does not belong in the jungle.

Violet Fields2 votes

{quoted}

Jungle Karthas needs to not be a thing. All he does is farm, and press R, and in doing so, out performs every jungler in the game.

Its literally the most uninteractive gameplay in the history of LoL

Malzahar support.

Buckeye20021 votes

Atleast Malz was in lane and had a chance of being outplayed.

General Esdeath 11 votes

I remember trying Karthus jg months ago and being called a troll. Now it's meta and I get called a meta slave when I play it

[zombie-nunu-bummed]

TonyTonyMordecai2 votes

I feel your pain

Postmortem2 votes

DUDE I'M ALL WITH YOU RIGHT HERE.

Critmaster Garen10 votes

dark harvest might be too strong on him, but there is no reason why karthus jungle shouldnt be a thing.

there was a time in this game when you could practically jungle every champion. the role has become so restrictive over the past couple of years. if youre not playing anything but a handful of specific champions, youre basically just trolling.

Jump God6 votes

Oh yeah, let's just gut Karthus jungle and force Karthus out of a role like the rest of the champions, let me give you a few examples: Camille (removing her stun on jungle monsters, minions etc. so it only works against champions), Taliyah jungle and so on. You are ready to become a Rioter, let's just force champions out of a role because that solves the issue about damage in this game. SMH.

ClickClickClick5 votes

I don't agree with the Camille changes and other champions being forced out of the jungle but that is a separate issue. I think having a kit like karthus has means there has to be consistant counterplay. I don't want karthus gutted as I said lane karthus should remain the same. maybe if its needed after a jungle nerf he can be buffed but IN LANE but his kit is toxic in the jungle the way he can pressure+scale without actually doing anything.

Beast Brawler4 votes

Have you tried playing Xin or Kha into him? You're saying you don't want to force champs out of lane but with this one champ you disagree with you make an exception. Well what happens later when some other champion takes his place? Do you make an "exception" then too? Does it just become whatever you want in the jungle and anyone else gets their kit manhandled?

MasterLico5 votes

{quoted}

Oh yeah, let's just gut Karthus jungle and force Karthus out of a role like the rest of the champions, let me give you a few examples: Camille (removing her stun on jungle monsters, minions etc. so it only works against champions), Taliyah jungle and so on. You are ready to become a Rioter, let's just force champions out of a role because that solves the issue about damage in this game. SMH.

fyi cammile was forced out of top first

Salvor Hardın5 votes

Having said this lane is Karthus punishable

In Jungle it is too, if you find him in the jungle he is dead or loses flash, he depends a lot on his team to respond to an invade. Either you win all the lines with a jungle that wins a lot, or you invade and leave Karthus far behind.

As a Example:

Heavy stomp: https://i.gyazo.com/cbde705d665b17d22f70818d627a369f.png

Highly invaded: https://i.gyazo.com/0191fb996c25987faad8814a6475d803.png

Losing laners: https://i.gyazo.com/3893bb1ac37812b1d7cebdc4a55ec604.png

Jerry SeinfeId5 votes

how is this different from toplane karthus?

ClickClickClick3 votes

Because a jungler can gank top lane without having to worry about another lanes priority as much. The majority of the time the mid laner will not be in a position to roam top when nothing is guaranteed. To punish a karthus jungle u have to get in there which takes lane pressure from both mid AND top to be able to do. So in a sense to counter a karthus jungle you inherently have to take risks which against any other jungle would straight up be bad play.

Ralanr5 votes

So to counter Karthus jungle you have to do basic invade tactics like vs any weak early jungler?

ClickClickClick2 votes

Like who, there isn't any point playing scaling farming junglers as long as karthus jungle exists in its current form. The difference is a farmed shyvana got fed from her farm and in that time had 0 pressure. Karthus once he hits 6 is looming over the rift while doing the same thing AND has more late game impact.

Ralanr3 votes

I’m saying that invades have always been the strategy vs weak farm heavy junglers. Just because none are meta right now doesn’t mean the strategy never existed.

kingDeDeDarius5 votes

{quoted}

Because a jungler can gank top lane without having to worry about another lanes priority as much. The majority of the time the mid laner will not be in a position to roam top when nothing is guaranteed. To punish a karthus jungle u have to get in there which takes lane pressure from both mid AND top to be able to do. So in a sense to counter a karthus jungle you inherently have to take risks which against any other jungle would straight up be bad play.

That's called gameplay strats and opportunity cost, it's good for the game.

ClickClickClick4 votes

The point I'm making isn't that there shouldn't be different game strategies. Its that to actually shutdown a karthus consistently you will have to break 'basic' rules of the game ie invading with 0 pressure. Having to do something that is objectively bad just to have the chance of shutting down a scaler like that seems very bad for the game.

kingDeDeDarius3 votes

{quoted}

The point I'm making isn't that there shouldn't be different game strategies. Its that to actually shutdown a karthus consistently you will have to break 'basic' rules of the game ie invading with 0 pressure. Having to do something that is objectively bad just to have the chance of shutting down a scaler like that seems very bad for the game.

I don't think it's breaking game rules. If karthus does once or twice early, he'll be super far behind. Like someone else mentioned, it's just the counter jungling strat and it's normal. Many junglers can easily counter jg karthus early and mid game while still having tons of lane pressure. Aka, shaco, rengo, Lee, graves, etc

ClickClickClick3 votes

Look, you cant just walk into the enemy jungle if your lanes don't have pressure without a death wish. Yes you can potentially put him behind and it does happen but why is the counter play to karthus jungle solely reliant on your lanes. He WILL sit there and farm and he Will press r and get random kills and eventually that early game jungler you were playing is as useful as bicycle pedals on a wheelchair.

3TWarrior1 votes

most early game junglers can easily get into the opposing jungle and against a champ like karthus, it's a guaranteed kill

let's use nunu as an example. take him and suddenly karthus has no farm at all while at the same time being prone to dying?

RainCityRecruit1 votes

Buy a sweeper, play a jungler with a wallhop and watch your minimap. It's really not that hard.

Buckeye20021 votes

The problem is most weak early game junglers, when they fall behind, it's very hard to catch up. Karthus can just press R and have a triple kill and he's back in the game. The other junglers to do that would have to be in the fight and actually risk falling even further behind if they fail.....karthus does not have to do that.

Beast Brawler3 votes

Sounds fine to me, I'm not very much for stagnant meta and "every person in this role plays exactly the same." Something that changes things a bit is great imo, and you've got the ability to counter Karthus' ultimate with nullifying orb and Hexdrinker. Buy a GA on an AD champ if you need to.

saltran2 votes

Funnel strat was a gameplay strat and it was cáncer, Riot made the right decision of gutting it.

Camille Jungle is viable and it's amazing in fact, which doesn't change that it's cáncer and she's being pushed out of Jungle for that on next patch.

Karthus Jungle should be removed from the game and I hope it's on 9.4

ClickClickClick2 votes

Ill admit, I don't have the experience with Camille jungle so it is hard for me to say. I think we generally agree and if Camille is as over bearing as I am getting the impression she is now then fine I can retract my previous statement.

Jerry SeinfeId3 votes

so somehow karthus is so good in the 1v1 vs his invader that you NEED 3 people but for example yi can be shat on by any competent xin or even shaco who scales into the lategame himself.

The risk to invading is always the same "you might die", either way you should be adapting to your opponents champ either way. that's like me complaining i have to deal with quinn or teemo top while most other toplaners are melee.

breaking 'basic' rules of the game ie invading with 0 pressure.

so now it's just pressure you need? i thought you needed both of them to come help you kill him? Seems like there is counterplay to him that works just as well on any other farming lategame beast.

anyway glad to see i'm being downvoted just for asking how it differs that he just afk farms in jungle as opposed to top, just goes to show that it's either agree with the circlejerk or be silenced on these boards.

ClickClickClick1 votes

Its not a case of needing 3 people to kill him. Its a case of being reliant on lanes having pressure so that when the other lanes do collapse (they should) that you aren't 1v2 or 1v3 trying to shut down a jungler that when left alone will roll over your team. I described the scenario top, how often is the mid laner going to roam top when they see a gank top as opposed to a mid laner going into his own jgl when an invade happens. Its fact that the jungler is going to receive more help just by virtue of being closer to the lanes so its not as simple as just walking in. The difference is a behind yi isn't sniping kills and getting strong while farming. Yi is not comparable to karthus in the sense that he has to be in the fight to impact the game and is hard countered by cc. I can't control downvotes, its a legitimate question about the difference between top lane and jungle for karthus.

Jerry SeinfeId2 votes

Isn't that true for every jungler though? If i invade a jax and his toplaner comes over while mine is jerking it under his turret i'll probably die too. Jungle karthus also doesn't have that great gank's i'd assume so he relies on his ult which has a long CD.

so i don't see the difference between something like yi or shyv aside from the fact they ain't meta rn.

i also think karthus is quite immune from top ganks if he plays the passive lane, unless he gets dove but then he should atleast trade 1 for 1.

Tim From Work2 votes

I think the issue is how hard he scales if you can’t successfully invade him, like yeah yi is going to tear through your team if he gets a chance to scale however his power isn’t the same as a team wide nuke with limited counterplay options, yi has to run at you Karthus can half health people in base

ClickClickClick1 votes

Thank you, that is exactly my point.

Alzon5 votes

A campfire in the jungle is still a campfire. If Karthus teaches more people to invade, that’s a good thing.

kingDeDeDarius4 votes

Well I don't play karthus but I don't want him removed from the game, I think he's fun in that role. Maybe they should make hi ult do a % less damage if he's not within like 2500 units of any enemy champions. This way he would hopefully not be affected in lane, but he can't sit at red or blue buff, or wolves or base or whatever and do quite as much damage. Maybe like a 25% damage reduction. The reduction and proximity to enemy champs could be worked out of course.

Jaspers3 votes

It was a thing before Dark Harvest just more niche. Now pros play it, others do as well.

Wild Geese2 votes

Few People realize Karthus was one of the first champions to be Jungled! Back when junglers weren't a thing.

You know what shouldn't be a thing? Jungle rs. No champion should be built for the jungle. Make every chain viable in the jungle-- increase team diversity!

Meritas2 votes

Champions are already getting erased from Solo Q because of Pro Play, if we also remove champions, because they are too strong for Solo Q, what kind of a roster will we even be left with?

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