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Top Lane Balance Changes

Season 9 Peaker··39 votes·13,920 views

Hi guys im a diamond 1 fiora top lane main and i just wanna share my opinion about the meta in top lane right now and hopefully the balance team can see and have a chance to reconsider what they are doing with the roles balancing changes. First off the role in its current state is super 1v1/matchup oriented many of the champs that are strong are strong because they counter the champions that are op in the meta.

The 5 main top lane champions that you must be playing in high elo in order to climb higher are jax, riven, kayle, hecarim, or kennen. Anything outside these 5 champions and you are risking the game for your team by playing a champion that is not nearly up to par with these champions. if you notice something about these picks is that 3 are conqueror champions and 2 are ranged (kayle plays like a ranged even pre 11) klepto users. The reason for this is conqueror the worst mistake riot has made to top lane in a long while. I understand old conqueror was a big issue and how it made the lane stale but the change that makes this rune so toxic is the reduction of 10% true damage for 10% healing on damage. This makes it where no matter how much you nerf the adaptive force champions that have sustained damage in fights i.e. jax riven hecarim are going to be super over powered. Conq was initially meant to be a tank buster rune where it helped with dealing with the strong tanks by giving u some cutdown potential as a bruiser, but now with the healing instead of true damage you have switched that power into a teamfighting and even a better dueling rune as it makes it where champions who previously could be all inned at an early stage no longer have the ability to even lose trades early because the healing from the rune is so over statted.

Riven is arguably one of the most broken champs in the game with her tanky but high dps build leaving her very little counterplay and now with the conqueror changes she can even sustain in 3v1s just fine with a lead with conqueror and deaths dance.

Right now riot is looking to buff fiora in the next patch because conqueror doesnt fit her champion as well as the other champions mentioned as her biggest counter matchups right now are exactly that of kayle, jax, hecarim and even now has a hard time with riven which was previously an easier matchup. The buffs they are doing to her are meaningless and wont help her in late late game or split pushing which she has a problem with every category of play. She loses in dueling to jax and riven even when she has a slight lead and doesnt win in the split vs any of these champs and has a worst team fight.

Riot needs to realize the problem with balancing isnt the champs its the fact that the healing on conqueror is just too overtuned and should be reverted to the 10% true damage it once gave. This would help balance these bruisers that are extremely op and not hurt the tanks too much because they will now be able to trade with the bruisers again without the healing. Tanks are absolutely useless in top lane right now because they have no way to fight any conqueror matchup and this is why they are buffing bramble vest already one of the best items in the game. WHY ARE WE BUFFING BRAMBLE INSTEAD OF NERFING CONQUEROR.

58 Comments

Tobykachu15 votes

I 100% agree. I enjoy playing Ornn top, but if I am ever against a champion that can stack conqueror quickly/reliably, then I have no chance of ever being able to beat them at any stage of the game. A few weeks ago I played Ornn into a full AD team comp. I had Sunfire Cape and Iceborn Gauntlet - both upgraded with Ornn passive, Ninja Tabi and a giant's belt. I had over 300 armor as well as 3,000 health and Riven still cleaved through me like butter, just because she had conqueror.

Thefrostyviking6 votes

Man whatever you wish to ask please use paragraphs!

Or in simpler words, split this giant wall of text into smaller parts each discussing their own idea so that reading it becomes much much easier and understandable.

Paragraph 1. Discuss the picks you view as viable for climbing in diamond and why they are so, possibly end the paragraph with a lane about the state of being caused by conqueror.

Paragraph 2. Explain your view on conqueror, explain why you find it problematic and the consequences of its current iteration.

Paragraph 3. Talk about how you would change it to improve it.

Paragraph 4. Finishing words.

I dont believe this is the perfect way to structure this but the reason you want to try something along these lines is because reading a giant wall of text is both headache inducing and something most will just avoid outright. That is contrary to the idea of posting it for people to see in the first place.

wolvius2 votes

{quoted}

Man whatever you wish to ask please use paragraphs!

Or in simpler words, split this giant wall of text into smaller parts each discussing their own idea so that reading it becomes much much easier and understandable.

Paragraph 1. Discuss the picks you view as viable for climbing in diamond and why they are so, possibly end the paragraph with a lane about the state of being caused by conqueror.

Paragraph 2. Explain your view on conqueror, explain why you find it problematic and the consequences of its current iteration.

Paragraph 3. Talk about how you would change it to improve it.

Paragraph 4. Finishing words.

I dont believe this is the perfect way to structure this but the reason you want to try something along these lines is because reading a giant wall of text is both headache inducing and something most will just avoid outright. That is contrary to the idea of posting it for people to see in the first place.

Or the OP could just use the enter key every 6 or so lines and not have it look like someone tried to fit all of Morde's "features" in one sentence.

Season 9 Peaker5 votes

sorry i fixed it dont post often

Thefrostyviking1 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Season 9 Peaker2 votes

Agree/disagree? lemme know if im stupid or not.

Crispy0Snake1 votes

I wouldn't be saying the words "revert" and "Fiora" in the same post. Riot may get confused.

I think it's just the meta right now, Fiora is good into tanks, she isn't good into bruisers (or isn't supposed to be) and now bruisers are meta... she's having a really bad time

Watching streamers it seems like she just pushes past river and then goes mango mode on the enemy adc and prays she kills the enemy adc with her ult, 2 vitals and a crit. If that's the optimal way to play her, why not play Irelia or even Tryndamere

y0r1ck2 votes

{quoted}

Watching streamers it seems like she just pushes past river and then goes mango mode on the enemy adc and prays she kills the enemy adc with her ult, 2 vitals and a crit. If that's the optimal way to play her, why not play Irelia or even Tryndamere

In other words, she lacks a win condition.

Ragnaveil1 votes

Yes, because her kit is overloaded with stuff that forces the champ to be in a very weakened state. % Max Health True Damage, what counter exists for that? None, saying "don't buy health" as a bruiser is like asking to be practically a dead man in teamfights. Doesn't matter if you can block the one spot, at some point its gonna be on a spot you cant defend by using a wall. She needs a new passive, plain as day.

MessyStuff1 votes

Nah, Fiora excels in one v one fights. The reason why she has max health true damage is because without it, she can't kill tanks/bruisers as well as squishies which is her whole champion design. She sucks in teamfights though because she's a good splitpusher.

Kurorade2 votes

{quoted}

Nah, Fiora excels in one v one fights. The reason why she has max health true damage is because without it, she can't kill tanks/bruisers as well as squishies which is her whole champion design. She sucks in teamfights though because she's a good splitpusher.

Compared to other champions, Fiora really isn't very good at splitpushing.

MessyStuff1 votes

But is she any good at teamfights? And plus how is she not good at splitpushing. Easily pushing with tiamat and triforce. Attack speed on E with triforce is good on towers. Plus she can kill most people(abeit people like Jax, Riven). That is what she's supposed to be like when she's balanced, she's not right now.

U R Good At Game1 votes

My problem with buffing fiora so she can 1v1 everything and splitpush is that through her ultimate it usually in the past has made her too good in team fights too as she quickly dispatches one guy and now your team has a janna ult. I would prefer to see her splitpushing and 1v1 buffed on the condition her ultimate wasn't aoe healing and was just solo health regen for the same amount.

Ragnaveil1 votes

^

Season 9 Peaker1 votes

Fiora doesnt beat jax or riven in any category of play. She loses in lane, gets outscaled, loses 1v1, loses in teamfight, loses in split. Fiora is in a terrible spot because the top conqueror users which all abuse the rune beat her at everything. I dont think fiora necessarily needs to be buffed more that conqueror should have its healing reduced or removed and put back into true dmg.

MessyStuff1 votes

But that's not what I meant. Someone said that Max HP True damage in her passive is bad for her, but i'm saying that she needs that. She's a bit weak at the moment, but that's no reason to change the entire champion design(change her passive like that guy was saying).

Season 9 Peaker1 votes

i agree

Ragnaveil1 votes

Right, so in that case why does she suck at early levels when she use to be good during then? Because she's been directly or indirectly nerfed many times over. Conq's a good duelist rune, but Fiora cant make the most out of it since most of her damage is already true damage. Thats an issue right there with her design. Also Fiora doesn't need the passive anymore now that % Pen got changed to be total, so buying a BC has good value even if you run conqueror.

Honestly, her ult could just remain the same (and instead have a flat cap (based on skill point level) of how much % max health true damage the ult can do vs based on what her passive value is. Also helps avoid situations where 3 vital hits at some point just chunks someone to 25% health). Allowing her to go back to more of a phys dealer allows her to make the most out of the lifesteal items she buys for 1v1 (Hydra, BT (in certain cases)). I hate fighting Fiora, but at the same time I acknowledge that she's very weak at the moment. Her only winning matchup (from what I know) is Aatrox because Aatrox's damage has cc with it, making him a easy target to W stun and all in on.

Although idk why bramble needed to be buffed. Tank base stats as a whole should be buffed either in base value and/or scaling so we avoid situations where tank items are so op that everyone buys them and situations where a fighter and bruiser cant kill a tank because of said items (even though pen got changed, so maybe some power in certain items can be upped). The bramble buff is just trying to flip things 180.

Saezio1 votes

Meanwhile, How about some ranged unconditional true damage ? Vayne

Ragnaveil1 votes

Vayne's an issue too. Since Riot doesn't want to do anything about Rageblade's passive, they need to nerf her W damage.

Minimac20001 votes

[{quoted}](name=OnIine Husband,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4EhmeMRl,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-04-16T15:12:41.731+0000)

Agree/disagree? lemme know if im stupid or not.

Except reverting back to true damage isn't going to make tanks exist at any point in the near future anyway. No one wants to play tanks because you get bullied all game, build tons of armor and hp hoping to survive for y'know .3 seconds and bam Kayle Vayne MasterYi and yes also Fiora 98% true damage. Looks like you might as well have built deaths dance instead because you'd survive longer and be more useful So no imo, going back to more true damage won't solve anything

Season 9 Peaker2 votes

instead of the true damage they could give back the hard adaptive damage nerfs to conqueror itd make tanks stronger vs it while keeping the dmg for bruiser matchups

Minimac20001 votes

[{quoted}](name=OnIine Husband,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4EhmeMRl,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-04-16T17:50:35.671+0000)

instead of the true damage they could give back the hard adaptive damage nerfs to conqueror itd make tanks stronger vs it while keeping the dmg for bruiser matchups

This, I'd be down for

Ragnaveil2 votes

I mean bramble helps so drain tanking is impossible, but at the same time sustain shouldn't have gotten this high, with Fiora, with Conqueror, with everything in general. The big issue for Fiora is that the % max health true damage in her kit takes up all the power budget. Hash said it best, "she's shit because of all the shit packed in her kit". She can proc a spot (again, can be denied, but saying when it gets proced) to not only heal, but gain movespeed and deal true damage. Her W can absorb damage and if cc lands, her slow and AS slow become a stun (which will be buffed to 2 seconds, so even more budget shit that will make her annoying and less of a champion). Her E gives her a slow and a crit (which now has a flat 40 mana cost). And her ult gives her all four spots and if she either hits them all or kills the target, reveals a healing circle that heals her over time based on how many she hit before the target died or if she hit all four.

Also, Jax and Riven have been issues even with old Conq due to the fact their early game isn't that weak anymore but their late is still super good. Thank the overbloated stats that came in with Runes Reforged. CDR is childs play to obtain now, AD/AP granting stuff is all over the place, sustain is jacked sky high, and defense was left in shambles because people feared a tank meta that was caused by adcs in the first place, not tanks (pen got changed in 8.11 to make armor even weaker when in the presence of pen). They need to re-evaluate top and fix the glaring issues with the lane considering it houses the most playable champions in the game in that lane, making matchups flip on a dime.

y0r1ck3 votes

{quoted}

I mean bramble helps so drain tanking is impossible, but at the same time sustain shouldn't have gotten this high, with Fiora, with Conqueror, with everything in general. The big issue for Fiora is that the % max health true damage in her kit takes up all the power budget. Hash said it best, "she's shit because of all the shit packed in her kit". She can proc a spot (again, can be denied, but saying when it gets proced) to not only heal, but gain movespeed and deal true damage. Her W can absorb damage and if cc lands, her slow and AS slow become a stun (which will be buffed to 2 seconds, so even more budget shit that will make her annoying and less of a champion). Her E gives her a slow and a crit (which now has a flat 40 mana cost). And her ult gives her all four spots and if she either hits them all or kills the target, reveals a healing circle that heals her over time based on how many she hit before the target died or if she hit all four.

Also, Jax and Riven have been issues even with old Conq due to the fact their early game isn't that weak anymore but their late is still super good. Thank the overbloated stats that came in with Runes Reforged. CDR is childs play to obtain now, AD/AP granting stuff is all over the place, sustain is jacked sky high, and defense was left in shambles because people feared a tank meta that was caused by adcs in the first place, not tanks (pen got changed in 8.11 to make armor even weaker when in the presence of pen). They need to re-evaluate top and fix the glaring issues with the lane considering it houses the most playable champions in the game in that lane, making matchups flip on a dime.

Bro I agree with everything except that last statement, in my experience top lane is almost always a counter or someone trying to cheese you at level 2.

Z3Sleeper2 votes

Same. Top lane is a disgusting counter-fest cuz Riot doesn’t address champions with top lane specific design issues.

Hell, remember when Rene was the lane bully that fell off late game? Well now he’s the lane bully that scales into late game and is a regular in late game multi-kill plays. And instead of fixing the issue (shojin), they’re just saying “nah he can be both it’s cool” and buffing his early more. Like why?

Rene is by far not the worst offender. That goes to Neeko/Jayce/Kayle/Riven/Ryze.

I personally don’t know about Hecarim top though. Haven’t had a problem with him yet n I don’t play him so idk who he’s abusing in lane and how bad.

Ragnaveil1 votes

Hec top is a coin flip. If you get a shitty matchup, its not gonna end well for you. You get a good one and you can probably cheese the enemy with Conqueror. He's good top due to Last Stand's buff from long ago combined with his recent Q buff, his W's healing, and Conq.

Ren still needs to get on top of people to do his thing, and Vayne can just make good work of him in seconds. Yes, spear should be removed, but Ren shouldn't fall off the face of the earth late game just like Aatrox. He shouldn't be as strong at that point. Aatrox on the other hand isn't allowed to be a early or late game champ based on all the nerfs he's gotten (the adjustments solve nothing other than practically gutting his pro viability with the ult change. He needs the first R change, simple as that. The revive at this point can fuck off if it means I not only can heal at the end of the duration if I dont die, but instantly heal if I get killed and be back on the offensive instead of waiting a slow pitiful death.)

Z3Sleeper2 votes

I’m familiar with playing against Hec. I meant I have had no problems with him as in I’ve beaten every top Hec I’ve faced (but i only play Yorick).

But yeah Rene WR is tanking cuz of Riven and the above mentioned ranged top laners (not kayle tho) that can say fuck all to his kit. Meanwhile tho he’s extremely abusive to every other melee champ.

Ranged top laners need safety nerfs. Neeko ms + snare. Ryze click target snare + shield + ms. Jayce E knockback. Kennen insta stun if you go melee on him. Just dumb stuff.

Saezio1 votes

You know what the problem is with Rene?

Rene used to be one of the only champs able to kill you reliably before even level 6(right now everyone can kill at level 3 with ignite and electro so rene has lost tons of value). He was falling off because the teams had tanks that peeled their carries, but who is gonna play a tank rn? Just to get popped in maybe 2 more seconds than a bruiser,if that? Everyone goes damage, none goes defence, that's why rene can kinda be viable past 15 mins. (he used to be straight up useless after 20 mins in seasons pre 8)

But if everyone gets to have good early, why can't rene be a bit better in late?

Cevrad1 votes

Yes lets listen to the guy who wants only jax and kled to be viable, great idea.

Ragnaveil1 votes

I could give less of a shit if he wants them viable, they will get dragged down under (especially Jax, he's a fucking massive issue since any counterplay he originally had is now gone due to cdr buffs, general buffs, items, and runes) Fiora has such good potential as a concept, but the kit just flat out sucks because one mechanic chokes up all the power allocation (Passive).

iTaLenTZ2 votes

Riot balance and live design team have been clueless ever since Morello left

Daddy Ants2 votes

I'm starting to ban Kennen when I'm top lane.

Kleptomancy Kennen is competely cancer to play against and all his items are dirt cheap.

BigFBear2 votes

Another example that runes dominate this game. You don't play vs champions, you play vs runes. Delete this fucking mess out of the game. It's not balancable! We don't need runes or Masteries! It was unnecessary with the old runes and it is even worse with runes reforged.

Nea1041 votes

Did you break your enter key? :/

Season 9 Peaker2 votes

just fixed it

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

TL;DR: I'm not interested in toplane balance i want to autopilot to victory by picking a tank and have my enemy toplaner flip a coin on who has the better botlane.

No thanks, don't listen to this riot.

Edit: wow you bamboozled me i thought you want to play tanks. But you are just a fiora player makes sense, fiora is not a good conq user. Got it. You want to afk farm against tanks and then 1v9 the sidelane.

Season 9 Peaker1 votes

No i like facing bruiser matchups i just want the matchups to be fair for both sides. jax and riven are over-buffed from the healing they get from conqueror.

Spicy Rice3 votes

more like they want conq to go back to being good at dealing with tank, and not at allowing a select few champs who stack it easily beat the crap out of everyone else.

Mártir1 votes

What about Olaf? I find him Op.

Season 9 Peaker1 votes

he's a strong cheese champ but in high levels of play not very viable.

Vectros1 votes

I really think they should either revert to old rune/mastery system, or severely tone down ALL numbers in runes/masteries-though not as much toning on defense, since it doesn't feel very effective right now.

XJ999999999999991 votes

better nerf irelia

Cevrad1 votes

This is an odd post to respond to because facts just aren't in your favor here. There are many many people who main champions outside of the 5 you mentioned and do very well consistently into masters and challenger. Though I do agree Conqueror is over the top sustain, I don't think reverting back to 10% true damage is a good idea.

I think they finally need to balance Riven around her animation cancelling which they have failed to do for years. Instead of balancing around some gold level Riot employee who can't animation cancel on her.

Also Bramble is getting buffed cause it hardcounters early game sustain. Quite simple really.

Also, you are delusional if you think we want a tank meta again.

Season 9 Peaker1 votes

Its not about what people main its about whats the best. I could main Mundo top successfully into high diamond its the fact that there is a certain set of champions that will just always outperform with equal skill. And i understand reverting back to the added 10% might be too much for some people even though it didnt seem to be a problem before you could instead give back the adaptive damage nerfed from the rune. And bramble is getting buffed precisely cause of conqueror healing not just early game sustain.

The last point you bring up, I dont like tank meta myself but im not gonna be biased and say that it should only be a small set of champions that should work, I just want top lane to be more balanced and in your own post saying we shouldnt revert back the 10% true dmg is kinda hypocritical since this would help deal with tank meta.

Michael Gira1 votes

with no conq tanks would run rampants. but this obv isnt a problem for fiora plays kek

Z3Sleeper1 votes

[{quoted}](name=OnIine Husband,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4EhmeMRl,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-04-16T15:02:27.922+0000)

The 5 main top lane champions that you must be playing in high elo in order to climb higher are jax, riven, kayle, hecarim, or kennen. Anything outside these 5 champions and you are risking the game for your team by playing a champion that is not nearly up to par with these champions.

Facts. But I'm a committed one-trick. I can't let myself cave into the pressure to get dirty free wins.

5050BS1 votes

How is Urgot not in your list? He is Ranged and a Conqueror champ

I memba balance 1 votes

yeah fucking no. 20% converted True Damage is bullshit. The current ConQ is bullshit. Bruisers are bullshit. That whole class can eat glass shards and shit out cacti for all I care. Braindead lane bully pieces of shit. The game has been in a shittier state for Riot trying to assign this magical Bruiser Keystone and ever since the first iteration of ConQ, Bruisers have been top tier beating down any other champ class.

psuedo meta1 votes

I believe conqueror should be put on cooldown ,0 stacks 0 benefits, after maxed and use for 3 seconds. the cooldown duration? Anywhere from 4-10 seconds.

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