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The new banning system against feeders. (POLL)

Vanishftw··2 votes·1,153 views

This is not a viable choice to resolve the issues. Even pregnancy tests produce both false positives and negatives. You're relying on a computer system to look through records and this should be done by human interaction.

Everyone has bad games, everyone has bad streaks. Summoners code #8 Leave No Newbie Behind!

This system is somewhat understandable for ranked queues but NOT regulars. I have seen my fair share of ADC that just cant last hit 0-11-15 and they get TRULY upset and apologize frequently. They do not deserve a ban after putting time and money into their account. This system is RIDICULOUS. Why put time and money into producing a flawed system and not put time and money into Game Masters to address situations like this?

Sounds like this is Riots way of saying "Thanks for the money, bye" Why cater to only the try-hards? What about regular players that only play for fun, that can do both good, and awful? What is Riot going to do about the players that get banned or suspended without doing anything wrong? Is this not a game? Yes its a game that requires teamwork, but everyone sucks at one time or another. Nobody starts in Master-Tier or even Silver.

14 Comments

Worgslarg2 votes

I am fine with 14 day bans handed out by a system, if you are doing bad enough to warrant a 14 day ban, deserved or not, you could use a break from league.

Permanent bans, should never, ever be sent out by a machine.

Vanishftw1 votes

I would call that more of a suspension, but do you truly believe that the system should be in non-ranked? I mean, if you're playing Non Ranked, odds are you aren't level 30, or just want to play for fun.

I completely agree though, Permanent bans should only be given to those cases that have been inspected by a Game Master or whatever you would like to call it, and for that matter, I would say permanent bans shouldn't be handled by Tribunal.

MakersF1 votes

Riot stated this many many many times: no permanent bans are given that a Rioter didn't approve it.

There is no way an human can check every player for good or bad behaviour, but humans can definitely check the players marked by the system as bad (as they are a minority). Every permanent ban is checked by real people.

TrulyBland2 votes

A human can make a mistake just as well. False positives will always be a part of any system they create, be it manual or automated. That said, I do believe they will have a lot of human control in this system just as with the toxic behaviour bans.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

Paraphrased from memory:

Originally posted by: Lyte We agree that banning people who are just playing poorly or on a bad streak is NOT something we want to do, so we're being cautious with this system to start. Only people who are defninitely feeding on purpose will be banned.

To start, at least, they're only going to ban people who are like "Didn't get top, I'm feeding" in chat and go 0-25-0 with 0 cs in a 30 minute game. (my guess)

I'll bet the reason they're doing this is so that when the tribunal comes out, they can auto-ban some people without ever sending them to the tribunal (those people who they're 100% sure are feeding, or those who are consistently spouting racial slurs, for example), so that people can spend more time on the cases that are less clear.

Vanishftw1 votes

going 0-25-0 with 0 cs is understandable, but what about those trying a champion they have practiced against bots, but want to try it in game? For example someone trying an adc in regs going 2-15-11 with 120 CS. I mean, not everyone can last hit perfectly every game.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

It would depend on the game, I guess. From the KDA and CS alone, I don't think that person deserves a ban with the automated system. That's a case for the tribunal to decide.

But Riot can do automatic analysis of chat logs along with the game, and if a player talks about how they're going to feed, and THEN has a ridiculously bad kda, damage dealt, cs, etc, I think it's fair to ban them without having a human look it over.

Again, just for emphasis: Only in the cases where it is SO clear that they are feeding, should they be banned by a machine. But in those cases, I think it's good, because the tribunal can focus on cases that are not so obvious.

As an aside, that machine also knows how much you've played a given champion - that's how they give you a lowered MMR your first couple times on the champ in team builder - so if this is your first time playing the champ, the system can give you a little more leeway.

Vanishftw1 votes

Weeding the obvious out is a good thing yes, a computer system is only as smart as it is programmed (not saying the programmer is stupid...) but it's one of those things where, looking at kills / deaths / assists and creeps may not be a viable choice.... Does that mean all supports will have to be looked at by human eyes? I mean Soraka, Braum, Nami, Blitz, etc etc etc shouldnt have CS and shouldn't have kills, only assists. but that doesnt mean 2 different people will have scores that look like feeding but aren't....lets say Braum A) has 0-10-7 and 0 cs and Braum B) has 0-15-5 and 15cs (targons) Who wasn't helping their team and who was feeding? Now im not saying they are good scores by any means, but it happens and it's impossible to avoid the fact that it does.

Btw I greatly appreciate your view and perspective on this topic.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

#Who wasn't helping their team and who was feeding? Braum A) has 0-10-7 and 0 cs

I would probably assume he's just having a bad game.

Braum B) has 0-15-5 and 15cs (targons)

I would guess he's feeding, but not enough to warrant a machine ban; I'd send him to the tribunal.

looking at kills / deaths / ***assists ***and creeps may not be a viable choice....

I mean Soraka, Braum, Nami, Blitz, etc etc etc shouldnt have CS and shouldn't have kills, only assists.

I don't really see a problem with this. kdA includes Assists. Therefore, if a support has no cs, no kills, many deaths, but also many assists, it's OK. Or at least, it's not a clear-cut case of feeding that a machine can deal with.

You can also do more advanced analysis. Maybe 12 out of my 15 deaths are right under the enemy tower, because I'm just suiciding on their tower over and over again. That's a lot worse than having 12 out of 15 deaths under my tower - that might just mean I'm getting dove.

I appreciate your perspective, too, even if I don't agree with it ;)

Vanishftw1 votes

I completely see your point and a lot of your points are valid, but I would still go under the impression this system should be focused on Ranked matches.

I myself have been playing for..... 3 years ish? Coming mainly from MMORPGs but also Starcraft / Warcraft III Dota and countless others, but that doesn't mean every player in regs have a background in this type of game and even by level 30, you still see a lot of people who haven't had veteran player help to learn to focus objectives, when to go in, when its worth (5 for 3 or whatnot) and even where to ward.

I hope the trial of the system can work out some of the bugs and Riot has a system to forgive the accidental bans.

MakersF1 votes

Is it your first time Braum? The system checks for first time Braums players average score with your MMR, and then compare that to yours score. I guess Braum avarage CS is about 30ish, and has 4-5 deaths with 5+ assists.

Is your score much different from that? Doesn't look like. You are definitely a legit player

It isn't your first time? The compare with the other Braum players etc.etc.etc.

Just a really simple thing Lyte said about the system. They can check the average number of wards, the average death position, the average distance from the team, etc etc etc

With just the scores I can not say anything (I'd say they are 2 bad games), but the system has so much more informations to make a decision on that it will really rarely be wrong

MakersF1 votes

So, you are saying that you prefer a human, which may at best look at 10/15 games, decide arbitrary if you are a feeder (based on i-don't-know what) compared to an automatic system that is the same for everyone (no "XXX has banned me, but YYY didn't ban ZZZ who did the same as me" bullshit), looks at ALL the matches ever played with the champ by players with a similar experience as your, can check if you usually feed, can check every single second of in game actions (no replay system, but they store what happened in the game. This is what they use to produce match history reports), and so on?

And can do that extensively for every player? This system looks into intentional feeding, not just feeding. And an automated system will be far better than an human to determine that. I personally know people that started AFKing and feeding in ranked despite being skilled players because they got afk/feeders in their matches. Does their reasoning makes sense? No. Are thy going to change? No (I talked with them many times, and their excuse is "as you see, nothing happened to us"). Now this system will just ban them, and maybe they'll learn something. The moment riot figures a way to ban AFKers and rage quitters (and there will be posts like yours, saying "how can you tell if it is a dc or an afk?? This is not right. There should be humans"), all the community problems will be solved. After chat bans toxicity already improved a lot.

Please, please, please, explain your though process when you wrote this post, I'm really curious!!

Vanishftw1 votes

So you're saying you don't still see a ridiculous amount of toxicity? Knowing the difference between intentional feeding and unskilled can be a fine line. The game can start great, ADC ahead on CS, gets no help from support or jungle and then decides to feed, making his score go from 10-1-3 with 150 cs to 10-15-5 with 170cs. Unless the person specifically says "FEEDING DUE TO NO HELP" how can the system make that judgement. I say it that way but the opposite could happen, starts great with that score then has jungle and mid consistently go bottom to keep him from doing anything making his score plummet while his own jungle possible continues to farm or go top.
Now what are the odds, with people knowing they will be banned for feeding, that they will announce it to help with this ban process i mean really? How can the system tell between the two types of games?

MakersF1 votes

If the person goes from 10/1 to 10/15 towerdiving and not replying to hits the system knows that. If the person goes from 10/1 to 10/15 because all the opponent team moves bot the system knows that. If the person goes from 10/1 because he has a superstrong early champ and the opponent a superstronger late champ the system knows that.

Still, this is not a clear display of intentional feeding, so the system shouldn't ban the player. We are talking about removing the worst of the worst, not making judgement calls on borderline cases (which often are just bad games anyway). And if that happens one match I guess nothing will ever happen, but rage-feeders, like rage-quitters, tend to perpetuate their actions. It's that easy I actually think the system wont take into account the chat. Parsing human language is terribly complex, while analysing data is way more a sure way to understand things. I don't know if you are in the datamining field, but trust me, it is almost scary how many informations you can extrapolate from little data. They have as much data as they want. They can definitely make a good system to find outliers even between the worst intentionally feeding player. If the system even only removes one of them, this is better than none.

Please, refrain from using the bullshit words "heatlty" and "toxic". This are 2 words that only riot uses because they mean nothing and they don't want players to use the words they say against them. I'm sure you can express your concept without using them.

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