No mana pots is getting out of hand

Calesvol·Nov 15, 2015·98 votes·4,642 views

I played poppy earlier today, and 1 w-e-q combo left me with no mana to even ult. Normally thats okay to balance out poppy, but without any mana pots it means every time you use your combo you have no choice but to just back. Beyond balance questions, this just removes a lot of fun from the game.

Aside from poppy, this removal is something I dont understand, it doesn't seem to do anything except further nerf any non-crit building mana users who can't build essence reaver. Does anyone know the reasoning behind removing mana pots from the game?

78 Comments

Dark NephthysNov 15, 201544 votes

I really don't understand why they even removed mana pots. It's like they are forcing people to start playing Manaless champions, or just champions that have extremely low mana cost (or who can refund mana etc). They claim it's to balance out mana cost on abilities and to be able to adjust mana and mana regen on all the mana users (mainly mages).

While that sounds nice and all, and I could see it being alright if you were facing another mana based mage, but currently most of the time I'm always up against an ADC or Yasuo in the mid lane (Or any of the other Manaless champions). How exactly is mages suppose to survive lane against some one who doesn't use mana? If you are a mana hungry mage and you're facing a Yasuo, you might as well just expect your tower to be gone before 10 mins since you won't have the mana to clear waves before the minions kill tower.

NilokerasNov 16, 20155 votes

Not to mention, after you back, Yasuo will just keep pushing and by the time you get back your tower will either be half health or gone.

Yosuke ApperuNov 16, 20153 votes

I backed at six minutes from a yasuo (I was fizz, so to farm from level one I had to auto attack minions.. Well he zoned me like hell with Q's) Anyways I backed and My turret was literally half health when I got back.. It was gone by ten minutes.

Spicy RiceNov 17, 20151 votes

Early game turret armor was reduced soooo......

Yosuke ApperuNov 17, 20152 votes

It also scales up to a whopping 30 armor...

Hatless CasualNov 16, 20154 votes

Honestly it feels like removing mana pots hurt poke/sustain supports the most. Since most supports have mana issues early game and they need it to back up their lane partner.... the cookies aren't enough half the time.

Yeah, mid mages have it bad; but your not trying to keep 2 people alive with your spells.

askild99Nov 16, 20159 votes

I probably have no idea what I'm talking about, and I might get some hate for this, but I feel like i need to say this anyways.

I find mana-management easier now because of the mastery that basically gives you Veigar's passive. It might be that I'm just getting better at playing mana-efficient, but I play Zyra , Soraka (~~not that manahungry but whatever~~), Nami , Karma and Lulu as my mains and I honestly think that mana potions are redundant now. I remember going item 3303 / item 3301 2 health potions and 2 mana potions. I then walked into lane and went ham, only to run oom and pop my mana potion, rinse and repeat. When I ran out of potions I was basically screwed. I feel like it was a band-aid for those who played inefficiently, and spammed spells.

I might be wrong, I probably am wrong, but I'm still gonna post this because I spent 10 minutes of my life writing this.

TheEvilQueen135Nov 16, 20153 votes

I actually agree with you. i main braum and sona and i basically bought what you did sup item and 2 health 2 mana. i was certainly a lot more willing to use my abilities even if they were likely to hit minions. Now/when i found out they were removing pots, I try to use my abilities more sparingly and at a time they are more likely to hit. and now i get my other items sooner since i'm not buying 2 mana pots the first few times i back.

AnihakuNov 16, 20154 votes

I agree with you 100% on this. If you fully build frost queens claim on any of those champs you listed (with the vei passive from masteries)' you literally have the best mana regen. I had 10+ on zyra and it made all the difference. Add a CDR item and you're golden.

Not to mention the new passive on item 3092 is so boss for a support. If you haven't tried it out yet, please do.

YormaughmNov 16, 20153 votes

This might solve problems for supports, but it completely ruins mids. Why? Because sometimes "going ham" was the only way for them to win or hell, even break even against hyper-aggressive lane opponents who aren't mana users AKA Yasuo. Mana using mids (i.e. most of them) now simply do not have the option to sustain in lane vs an aggressive opponent who doesn't possess what is now an obvious disadvantage (a mana pool.) They also can't play aggressive themselves, this locks them into only one option of playstyle, which removes them completely from strategic and tactical viability since every (competent) player on both sides knows exactly what the mid lane matchup looks like in 100% of games. Also, because passive farming is now the only option for mana-using mids, we're going to more and more only see the ones that do that very well and scale very well off of that, like Veigar, Anivia and Karthus, thereby removing macro-strategy from the game even more because these changes disincentivize an entire class of champions (one that was previously the most diverse btw.)

Oh and lets not forget that the nerfing of towers has turned all of the laning phase into a giant game of chicken, which now more than ever rewards the team who wins it. The first person to leave lane loses a tower, and possibly the game. How are mana using mids supposed to compete with AD heavy manaless champs when they don't even have the OPTION of spending gold on sustain?

Sure the game is still playable and players will make adjustments, but the problem is that these changes actually remove diversity and strategy from the game. This is the exact opposite of Riot's stated reason for making changes in the first place. They can't see how stuff like this actually makes the game more stagnant that it was before because it removes possibilities and player choice. It's honestly depressing and/or infuriating depending on how you perceive it.

TeCoolMageNov 16, 20153 votes

Actually, with the new healing and shield mastery, I think they're in a good position.

Support items are cheaper, so you can buy a faerie charm along with it.

They also had their mana regen buffed by 2.5, which in my opinion is a lot better than a flat 50 mana, with gold coin and a faerie charm, I can spam Q and W if I don't miss too often (hp costs) because of the total regen of 17.5 + 1.5% of missing mana per 5.

Aggressive supports like thresh, however, may not have as many good options, but as I said, supports in general are in a pretty good position.

Also, the second person you need to keep alive is an ADC, I'm sure it's not that hard since everyone always complains about how OP they are. Even if the enemy team has one as well.

Ace Access Nov 16, 20155 votes

Gnar Aatrox Garen Katarina Kennen Riven Rumble Tryndamere Yasuo Zed

among these there are mana-less champs we're sick and tired of seeing right now

MasterVidallisNov 16, 20152 votes

Because it devalued mana as a resource gate and item stat and made it difficult to balance around it. It was a great systemic change the problem is it screwed over a lot of champs whose costs are too high. So the loss of mana pots, great. The adjustment to champs to accommodate that change: bad.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbNov 17, 20151 votes

I mean, I figure they either start making big fixes for this next patch, or they failed yet again at making big sweeping changes without fucking everything

Meep ManNov 15, 201511 votes

They did it to try and rebalance early game mana sustain to where people who bought mana pots weren't able to spam endless spells, especially on champions to where your spells can't miss. For example, Yorick is a prime example of this. Without mana pots, Yorick has much less sustain in lane and might be beatable. With them, he becomes a very toxic sustain train that you can't push out of lane without a jungler gank. However, any Yorick with half a brain will just freeze his lane where it is favorable to avoid this.

So, with mana pots Yorick seems oppressive. Without them, he seems weak. This is one of the reasons he is being reworked. For everyone else, Riot tried to compensate with mana buffs. Whether they were enough... that's up to you guys. However, I must say this, if you are running out of mana very, very often, perhaps you should not use spells as often. For champions who run out of mana in one rotation (who aren't Poppy because this is the only thing gating her from being a supper bully early game), you should tell Riot this since majority of champions, this shouldn't happen.

TL;DR They did it to try and make some champions be more manageable and balance-able early game while compensating others who were affected. Compensation may not be enough for some.

Fur Fox SakeNov 15, 20157 votes

I saw it as a balance when someone bought mana pots and the other health pots. You're doing damage to someone but they use a health pot and heal up the damage you did with your spells and it leaves you oom and them back to health. So you use a mana pot to gain back mana and try to damage them and take away the health they regenerated from that health pot again. tbh I saw balance and a option that was necessary to a lot of champs with diverse playstyles.

flibitydooNov 16, 20158 votes

If you went OOM from just WEQ in that you could not cast your ult immediately after, wouldn't the issue actually be your max mana capacity? Even if you bought a mana potion in that scenario, you would have to wait a great deal of time for your mana to regenerate enough so that you could actually cast your ult.

So it's not actually an issue with mana potions at all?

ShaftyMegeeNov 16, 20156 votes

They are reworking her soon, so I guess they didn't bother balacing her.

WumachineNov 16, 20154 votes

I find that mana isn't really a problem, so long as you're good at managing mana and not spamming your abilities every time the cooldown refreshes, you should be fine.

In the case of Poppy, either her costs just need to be tuned down a bit, or her max mana increased.

flibitydoo (NA) - about 8 hours ago If you went OOM from just WEQ in that you could not cast your ult immediately after, wouldn't the issue actually be your max mana capacity? Even if you bought a mana potion in that scenario, you would have to wait a great deal of time for your mana to regenerate enough so that you could actually cast your ult.

So it's not actually an issue with mana potions at all?

Lintu PuckNov 16, 20153 votes

item 2031 - might only give health but then it can build into either item 2032 or item 2033 which gives both health and mana and have charges like the old Flask, in fact applies a burn when you hit them with your damaging spells while the potion is active it applies a burn to the enemy champion. While mana pots might be gone it just means you have to watch not just your health but the mana as well so you need to just play safer and watch how much you spam the combo. Also, how does one w-e-q combo leave you with not enough mana to ult? that means you went into the combo with less then half of your mana, so in this case it's more your goof instead of a game problem.

KlamzChowderNov 16, 20153 votes

Right? Its like they want people to play manaless champs like Yasuo Tryndamere ............wait a minute.....

RIP Tahm KenchNov 16, 20153 votes

I don't get it, people actually bought mana potions? 35 gold for one spell never made sense to me, such terrible efficiency, even on Velkoz who can get 2 spells per pot.

DEmperor95Nov 17, 20151 votes

I know right. I have been maining AP mid for a very long time, and I don't remember I have EVER bought or used a mana pot.

ZexionNov 16, 20153 votes

You shouldn't need mana pots to play Poppy.

Poppy main, and I don't think I have ever bought a mana pot on her since season 2.

Sheen pretty much fixes her mana problems, unless you're just spamming her abilities, in which case you need to learn mana management. She's like one of the four champions left that have an actual meaningful resource bar.

TeCoolMageNov 15, 20152 votes

To make them buy mana regen in other items instead of the usual Doran's. Also, there weren't any non on hit effect starting items for AD minds so they thought "Hmmm maybe we should balance it out by making AP mana reliant mids play safe early on"

TransgressorNov 15, 201511 votes

Mana reliant mids, especially immobile casters, always played safe early on. Now, you have to buy items to sustain your mana, survive enemies, AND deal damage. Yeah, good luck doing that when your only deffensive option is Zhonyas.

AnidanNov 16, 20154 votes

You telling me item 3027 isn't core on many of the immobile mages? Because it is. And while it isn't a ton, Athene's has MR. Seraph's has a shield based on your max mana (and many Seraph's users grab RoA). Man, don't even try to tell me AP champions don't have defensive options beyond Zhonya's. They may not be in the best position, but to say Zhonya's is their only defensive option is to ignore RoA, Athene's, Seraph's, Crystal Maiden's Scepter, Abyssal Scepter... Hell, even Liandry's has 300 hp, which is a defensive element.

Don't sell them short just because you don't like their position.

TransgressorNov 16, 20153 votes

No, it is not. The only thing remotely close to "core" for RoA was in Kassadin, who got gutted and had his identity ruined twice. I don't play him anymore so i can't speak for him. I don't play Cassiopeia either. I don't think the abomination that is Ryze should even be considered anything else than a ball of cancerous stats, so he's out of the list as well.

But I play everyone else. And if you rush RoA on Lissandra you're stupid. If you rush RoA on Syndra you're stupid. If you rush it on Orianna you're stupid. I could see it perhaps horking on Morgana mid, but not alot play her that way. I've never seen Zyra mid buying RoA either. I've seen many Annies doing well without it, so it's not core for her either. I've seen many Anivias do well without RoA as well. Hell, Froggen doesn't buy it many times.

And now I'll tell you a secret:

A raw shield, is not a deffensive stat. Athene's gives a fraction of MR; the only reason you buy it is for those niche situations you need mana regen and magic resist at the same time. Morrelonomicon's AP+CDR+Mana regen+GW is always better, but it doesn't give MR. I have no clue what "Crystal Maiden's Scepter" is. Abyssal Scepter, is once again niche. Not your average pick. When you need high amounts of MR packed with decent AP. It works on situations where an immobile mage plays against a bursty AP assasin(face it, AP comps are a thing of the past so the aura is worthless).

Health, health on AP champions is nothing but candy when compared to the AD itemization, especially with all the new stuff they got. item 3156 Defensive item. Gives raw damage and MR; compare it with its AP counterpart item 3001 item 3133 AD+CDR, builds into item 3071 great defensive item. Also builds into item 3508 item 3812 item 3142 item 3114 AP mana regen and CDR, builds into item 3165 and that's it. item 3157 Cost increased, armor nerfed. item 3053 item 3072 item 3083 item 3065 The value you get out of those items is enormous. item 3143 Great against crits. What does AP get? Nothing. item 3033 item 3052 item 3035 item 3123 item 3034 item 3036 Tailor made for ADs to battle tanks. What do APs get to battle tanks? item 3151 (HG has the same penetration passive) item 3001 AP is obsolete, tanks no longer build enough MR to make the value of AS really worth it item 3135 Same with AS, but it has a greater boost to AP. Thanks to the items and fucking stupid masteries, Grevious Wounds on APs is now pointless, because they get outshined by the stronger GW on ADs AND their new sustain toys. GW now also applies on self-heals only. So getting healed by a support or someone else's summoner 7 will have no impact on your AP's GW, which makes the value worthless.

Lasty, compare the flexibility they get over APs=> Null-Magic Mantle builds into 6 items for ADs but only 2 for APs. And that's just an example.

TeCoolMageNov 16, 20151 votes

Malzahar

Especially AP Cinderhulk Jg Malzahar.

But other than that, it's more of a "Slap On These Dank Stats" item than a core item, I actually don't buy Zhonya's against AD mids because ADCs have sustained damage so a few seconds won't do much, and assassins will always be "kill or be killed, idc if you have a team surrounding you"

But I play normals more than ranked so meh.

TransgressorNov 16, 20152 votes

I don't have the balls to play Jungle Malzahar. Well I don't have Malzahar either. I as well play normals most of the time.

Zhonya's is more like "be invulnerable for those precious seconds you need for your ability cycle to come off coodlown" after that dive or something, or "evade the unbalanced shitstorm of a particular champion(zed,yasuo,fizz to name a few)" and that bait power it gives especially on Lissandra.

TeCoolMageNov 16, 20152 votes

Well, for Liss I always buy it, as her team fight combo inherently requires a self stasis, invincibility, or escape, and that combo already uses E as part of it and her ulti tends to make her useless for long periods of time.

As for Malz, he's like Warwick and Elise's baby minus any escapes. AP Malz is pretty much "Farm till 6 like WW, then you get a suppression that lasts 1 second longer and you're ranged" while AD Malz is like "I'll follow you around and give you AIDS so my creepy crawlies will find and destroy you, aka. Elise's spider form" oh, and you can smite while suppressing so that's fun.

I'm still not a fan of Zhonya's on champs that aren't like Morg who have effects that persist through it, or Lissandra who is fragile but practically has a mini amumu ult as a basic ability. Sometimes I decide to take GA or some pure armour tank item if things are getting out of hand, but Zhonya's is just not my kind of item.

Now that I think about it, all armour items, excluding sun fire cape and Deadman's plate, either have an anti ADC effect, increase offensive capabilities directly (AP, AD), or also have MR. There aren't really that many anti AD assassin items like what frozen heart and thornmail are for ADCs

TeCoolMageNov 16, 20151 votes

I was mocking Riot's logic

Bandwagon voting strikes yet again

SmithneyNov 16, 20152 votes

Maybe next time you should use something along the lines of "kappa" or "/sarcasm" just to make sure you don't get run over. :P

TransgressorNov 16, 20153 votes

Next time you decide to crusade against the might of bandwagon voting, make sure you let everyone know you're being sarcastic with something like (sarcasm) at the bottom of your post. Since, you know, written text is kinda hard to discern sarcasm off of.

SrirachaLimesNov 15, 20152 votes

As someone who enjoys playing Swain and Vel'Koz, I don't mind the removal of mana pots. I don't even feel like I'm being forced to conserve mana. The only time I wish I had mana pots is when I'm needlessly spamming my abilities for whatever reason against the enemy laner ... which really shouldn't be happening. I can use my combo on Vel'Koz multiple times and still have mana left over, and I don't even have any runes for mana regeneration.

I believe that it is exaggerated that mages are no longer good. They are perfectly fine. Yes, it becomes harder to play as mages, but they are still strong. The people hit the hardest were Vlad/Swain players, since grevious wounds + Zhonya's nerfs hurt them the most, but lots of other mages are still good.

The Yetii RiderNov 16, 20152 votes

Poppy is rough yes, but Sheen is cheaper so you can get extra mana earlier.

HighH1Nov 16, 20152 votes

I saw no one (rarely because I know 1 of you will say I did tho) buy mana pots before not even poppy or high mana champions but suddenly mana pot used to be SUPER important. Not saying they were useless but this is coming from nowhere

PassionlipNov 16, 20152 votes

Or they just want mana champs to actually be gated by mana and be forced to look at how much they spam their abilities. It's not like you get oom by casting 1 or 2 spells - poppy case is special, as someone pointed it -, i had the problems only when spamming spell at every cd, and could handle it with the biscuit or hunter's potion. To be honest, i think everyone is exaggerating, IT'S STILL PRESEASON.

King OdinNov 16, 20152 votes

item 2033 I hope you bought this as your first item.

BixitsNov 16, 20152 votes

As a mid main I always took 2-3 mana pots at start. I also ran clarity, as veigar I could sustain in lane until 6-8 usually with that combo. Clairity doesn't really help with a full build late game but It does help the support in team fights usually who are mana starved. I'd be fine if they kept one or the other but it's not fair to remove BOTH options. I honestly hate the pre-season changes and I'm not going to be playing much.

GetBoomedOnNov 16, 20152 votes

She's always been mana hungry. Get sheen and the 1.5% missing mana every 5 seconds mastery and you'll be fine.

Summonerrr 1Nov 16, 20151 votes

try building item 3508 after item 3057 on POOPY and then going into trinity force and your standard stuff. You'll thank me later.

Crowe StalkerNov 16, 20151 votes

When the hell would Poppy get the crit to make use of Essence Reaver?

PassionlipNov 16, 20152 votes

{quoted}

When the hell would Poppy get the crit to make use of Essence Reaver?

item 3078 (Or from the Reaver itself, 30% isn't half bad)

Crowe StalkerNov 16, 20151 votes

Fair enough, I was more imagining Poppy would get item 3025 for some odd reason...

DïeWithDüstinNov 16, 2015

seriously!! why would you get rid of mana pots... i have to but a mana stone to just waste coin/space early game.. I cant even really use poke supports now since i lose mana so quick.

Atleast buff cookies if keeping mana pots gone is a reasonable removal...

TheEvilQueen135Nov 16, 20153 votes

then you're poking too much. I main braum and sona and i've had no major mana issues. just use the pokes more sparingly