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AP Build Diversity for Melee AP Champs

Rasputin424··2 votes·2,736 views

Dear Riot,

As a Mordekaiser and Diana main I deal constantly with AP items. As such I have noticed the lack of diversity in item build paths and considering a few years ago (not sure how long exactly) you guys did a simplification of AD item build paths I am asking that you re-evaluate AP item build paths as the game becomes more fast paced and combat more frequent and liquid. I say this because while ranged AP champs are in a good place at the moment melee AP champs feel like the bastard child of league. Of course the argument can be made by many that Morde and Diana are OP at the moment but I think that is more of an issue with their kits/ratios than their items. The same can be said of Yasuo, Garen, Aphelios and a lot of other AD carry champs but the difference is they have access to the simplified build paths that AP champs do not.

To illustrate: With item 3086 Yasuo or Aphelios can build item 3085 item 3087 item 3094 item 3046 now of course Yasuo wouldn't build item 3085 but the other three are viable and create a significant fist item power spike to a melee champ with significantly low cooldowns all the while item 3086 providing ample value before the final item. Apart from the base stats he has the option of item 3046 for shield, item 3087 for wave clear and poke, item 3094 for on hit damage. Conversely Mordekaiser's 1st item power spike arguably comes from item 3116 which builds from item 1026 which is its key component but is not a key component to any other significant early game item or provides any other value than a stat. other examples are item 3916 item 3136 item 3191 which build into item 3165 item 3151 item 3157 respectively and while I do not discount the value of these items they are arguably very niche and with the champion trend toward high attack speed, high damage, mobile, squishy champs they only really see value if you are level with your opponent or ahead correction if your team is level with your opponents or ahead. I have watched countless high elo Morde players dominate early game but become almost useless late game because they build damage and health but nothing else or their bot or mid lane feeds so the enemy adc or mid hits like a truck and erases their health bar with three hits or 2/3 spells .

Now i'm not saying it's impossible to win but it becomes tricky playing a top lane AP melee champ and your ideal build consists of pigeonholed items or tank items.

Another thing I noticed, I wonder about this and hope maybe this might get addressed. Why does item 3211 build into item 3065 but item 1033 build into item 3102. Why I ask is because as I said above in today's game health is not as valuable as resistances in my opinion and as a melee AP champ sustain counts more to team fights and team fight survivability especially late game. While item 3065 is a great item it's not a great first item unless you're Nasus going against an AP champ and it doesn't add much to your sustain late game especially with all the huge burst damage champs and champs with executes now in the game--believe me I've tested it. item 3102 on the other hand when completed, is a beauty of an item but doesn't provide true bang for your buck until finished which again in my opinion puts the AD champ at a significant advantage early game.

Lastly, item 3191 only builds into item 3157 which is the only offensive AP item with AR as opposed to item 3155 which build into item 3156 with item 3139 and item 3091 also being alternative options which all provide AD and MR, again options. Now I know Riot has said that they want to shy away from mirror items in AD and AP so i'm not asking for mirrored items but some diversity would be greatly appreciated.

I must say that I love the way the game has evolved since I started playing in 2015 even though I took a two year hiatus from the game to pursue Paragon R.I.P. Paragon 2016-2018. I've always had a love for League and its diversity as well as its lore and storytelling. I can tell Riot's developers love the game and it shows and that is greatly appreciated. Anyways that's my 2 cents, I hope someone from Riot sees this and at least reads it.

PS: I also think more AP build and item diversity will prevent the current item 3504 issue because while it works for Diana if it is too potent it will get nerfed and that would adversely affect AP supports. Also more CDR AP items would be nice because CDR is to AP what ATK SPD is to AD ijs.

11 Comments

ProphetOfDraven2 votes

Neither AP bruisers or AD bruisers have good MR itemization. item 3139 has terrible stats and item 3156 doesn't stack with item 3053 which is better under all circumstances. Both pretty much have to go for item 3111 or item 3065 or have no MR.

item 3102 builds out of just a item 1033 because they didnt want mages just sitting on a item 1057 and being unburstable with only 720, forcing them to finish the item if they want that effect.

Anyway as an AP bruiser player too I think we just need another Health CDR and AP item. Only Protobelt currently fills this slot. item 3067 + item 3802 Sounds pretty good for a 20% cdr item that we really need, but Morde wouldn't be able to build it. It either needs to be melee only or have mana or have an on AA effect ( like spell blade ) because Vlad would be abuse it pretty hard otherwise.

Here is an item concept I had

Spellfire Sabre item 3802 + item 3067 + 1300G = 3400G 250 Health 70 AP 400 Mana 10% Cooldown Reduction

UNIQUE Passive - Haste: This item gains an additional 10% Cooldown Reduction. UNIQUE Passive - Spellfire: After casting a spell gain one stack of spellfire, auto attacks consume one stack of spellfire and deal 60 + 15% AP in a 200 AOE. Melee champions gain 30% to 60% AS based on level while they have spellfire stacks.

21.75 x 70 + 2.66 x 250 + 1.4 x 400 + 266 x 2 = 3279.5/3400 = 96% gold efficiency

Kinda achieves the same thing as item 3504 on Diana.

Rasputin4241 votes

I like the way you think, and this was my reason for starting this thread, to promote dialogue on this issue. The Spellfire Sabre sounds like an excellent concept. I hope other people who main AP MELEE champs come forward and share their thoughts as well.

Here's another thought, just as how some items are specifically for Melee champs such as item 3053 make 2-3 items specifically for Juggernauts or Bruisers because their ratios tend to be pretty high.

One Item I use on Diana that I intend to use on Morde as well is item 3124 because it has both AP and AD maybe more items like these can provide utility to bruisers and juggernauts. Just a thought.

I would love to hear/read more thoughts on the matter.

ProphetOfDraven1 votes

I also had an idea for item similar to Steraks Gage that would also act like a Deathcap Alternative.

The Kingslayer's Gauntlet ( Blue flipped image of steraks like item 3111 is flipped item 3047 )

[Giants Beltitem 1011 + Fiendish Codexitem 3108 + Amplifying Tomeitem 1052 + 1155 gold] 3500

alternatively

[Kindlegemitem 3067 + Needlessly Large Roditem 1058 + Ruby Crystalitem 1028 + 1050 gold] 3500

400 HP

10% Cooldown Reduction

Unique Passive - Lifeline: If you take 400 − 1800 (based on level) damage within 5 seconds, you gain a shield for up to 3.75 seconds equal to 75% bonus health, which start decaying after 0.75 seconds (60 second cooldown).

Unique Passive - Wisdom: Gain AP equal to 20% bonus health. ( 80 AP with only this item )

266 + 400x2.66 + 400x0.2x21.75 = 3070/3500 = 88% gold efficiency + 12%(435 gold) per 100 bonus HP from other items.

The passive Wisdom would have to be the same named passive as Deathcap ( which currently isn't named ). My idea behind this item is to solve the Deathcap phenomenon. Because basically what happens with AP bruisers, especially Sylas and Diana ( the ones that can't use Rylias + Liandrias effectively ), is that you are forced to go full AP + Deathcap, due to how much build efficiency you lose if you don't. This item would give a good last item alternative to Deathcap for AP bruiser builds. It's high cost and mediocre build components are to stop it from being a good first item.

You would be able to go something like item 3116 item 3151This itemitem 3143 item 3065 on Morde and end up with about 535 AP or item 3152 item 3157 This Item item 3065 item 3916 on Sylas / Diana and be fairly tanky and deal good damage.

I feel like on Mordekaiser item 3146 would be better if you wanted to go offmeta. The slow would be nice for people trying to kite you, and it gives you even more healing. The only real problem with offmeta builds like these is that they require so much gold and these champions can't fully utilize the items the same way the intended users can.

Rasputin4241 votes

Wow it looks like you put a lot of thought into this that's so cool.

Yea I've been testing item 3146 with Glacial Augment, Perfect Timing, Biscuit delivery and Cosmic Insight with Domination tree Second for Cheap Shot and Ravenous Hunter with 1-10% CDR and other two in counter Defense. Its my anti-Fiora/Yasuo/Akali/Ekko build.

If I'm verses AD I Build item 3146 item 3115 item 3124 item 3068 item 3143 item 3020 with the Counter defense runes being in AP. Now This is if I have 3-2 or 4-1 AD Opponents in the majority and i might swap in item 3075 depending on how the opponent builds.

If I'm verses AP I Build item 3146 item 3124 item 3091 item 3102 and either item 3065 or item 3194 if im going against Kayle and item 3020 I might swap in a item 3165 for heal cut, but i havent had to so far, with the counter Defense being AD. Now this is if I have 3-2 or 4-1 AP opponents in the majority.

The idea is to keep stuck to opponents with Glacial Augment Slow so I can keep my passive up as much as possible as well as utilizing the true damage from Cut Down among other things.

I've also been experimenting with other runes and builds but i'll keep those to myself for now ;)

MordridtheBlack1 votes

i'm going to pick and choose some stuff to talk about in your post

while having items that are "pidgeonholed" isn't good technically...it makes sense due to how some champions function

a key example of a top lane AP champ and a pidgeonholed item is Vladimir and item 3065 Because Vlad uses his own health for his abilities, having HP regen is a nice bonus. plus the passive from SV helps out since Vlad does have some self heal in his kit...thus making that drawback less impactful

item 3102 is a very...very situational item; sure it has more MR than SV and actually offers AP (as well as CDR) but you are mainly getting it not for any of that. You are generally grabbing it for the passive. The same thing could viably be said for item 3157 only you grab it for the active.

as for item 3156 item 3139 item 3091 you won't be building all of those as they each have their own place in certain builds with the exception of WE, the other two items are rather common AD jungle items (usually in the third or fourth slot)

and there is plenty of AP build diversity, we just choose to always build the same items because; a) the other items are situational, b) not optimal for the champion, c) the item[s] are off-meta, d) a combination of the above

and you don't need to build an AP champ with AP items, there are plenty of builds that use AD items for AP champs

Rasputin4241 votes

But thats my point there is no diversity, you buy certain items for certain situations whereas AD has a whole bunch of options and as I said in the beginning I am not talking about AP champs in general I am talking about AP MELEE champs.

So your Vlad example is good for Vlad how though is it good for anyone else especially AP MELEE CHAMPS? Yet that is the primary non tank MR item. Whereas my Zeal example is good for ADC's, AD assassins, some JG and even TOP LANERS see that is --- diversity. So you're basically agreeing with me????

And as for the three MR items as YOU said they each have their place in different builds, but ZH and BV are by THEMSELVES again no diversity they are in most or all AP MELEE champ builds if you're trying to get resistances without sacrificing damage whereas item 3026 gives Damage and Armor and an extremely useful passive and to my point builds from item 1038 which can be also be built into item 3072 item 3031 item 3095 item 3508 now that my friend is diversity.

So the question remains how is a AP MELEE champ to build restances without sacrificing damage??????????

And the notion that you don't need to build an "AP" melee champ with "AP" items is preposterous just typing it --- why make an AP Melee champ if said champ has to use AD items?????????.

I don't know if you main AP MELEE champs but I use BV and ZH more commonly than people realize cause as a MELEE champ in the top lane it sucks to get kited by a mage or any ranged champ to half health before you even get time to engage in a fight.

AGAIN THIS POST IS ABOUT AP MELEE CHAMPS

So please take that into consideration before replying to this post.

Skia Asteri2 votes

{quoted} Vladimir and item 3065

That item is hardly ever built on that champion, and becomes less common the higher rank you look at stats for. While it is technically built more than item 3102 , by Diamond+ item 3504 is built on Vladimir more than either of those items.

Rasputin4241 votes

Thanks for the clarification.

I can see why item 3504 is built more on Vladimir than item 3065 and item 3102.

My concern though is that because it is so stat and gold efficient it will get nerfed and thus Supports will suffer.

Voluug131 votes

Sure.

Delete AP assassins first, or else those will Ezreal literally any AP item that gives good AP and tankiness at good gold effectiveness.

Remember Ahri item 3116 ? Do you really want Akali with bruiser itemization?

Rasputin4241 votes

I think Akali, like Yasuo, is just too broken period so giving her bruiser items wouldn't make much of a difference. And remember i'm talking about Melee champs which technically she is but she isn't cause she has all ranged skill shots and you hardly ever see an Akali autoing continuously in a teamfight or 1v1.

Also like i said earlier the bruiser items would be for melee only.

Cause to your point Akali, Ahri and all the other super mobile AP assassins need is CDR which the game already has for them. Besides the only AP assassins that are "melee" is Ekko and Kassadin and Ekko's kit is broken and Kassadin would only need an adjustment in ratios and mana costs.

Actually I would propose Bruiser items have lower AP stats and more sustainability/utility because Bruiser Ratios are higher because they do more with less .

A good mid/late game Akali is only counterable by point and click CC thats after she wipes out half your team solo, in my opinion a bruiser item wouldn't change that. She needs kit changes but that's another story.

And lets be fair Akali is an outlier.

But also how is Ahri item 3116 and different from Ahri glacial augment and item 3030 or Veigar glacial augment and item 3030 which is running rampant in solo que presently.

I don't think that a whole class of champs should suffer because 1 or 2 champs may/maynot be broken. IDK, that's why we're having this discussion.

ProphetOfDraven1 votes

How would Akali abuse AP bruiser itemization? They typically are imagined to have most of their gold worth in CDR and Health. Akali has no room for those stats, she wants pure AP and magic penetration.

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