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Five Reasons and One Emotion Why Blitzcranks new W needs to go

TrueECP··43 votes·3,535 views

Hello!

This got a LOT longer than I intended when writing it, so if you'd like a shorter read type ctrl+f for "in closing" and you'll head the bottom couple of paragraphs. Please excuse the length and some of the emotional stuff. I'm a veteran with PTSD who did technical stuff in the service, I really love video games and I started to cry a little twoards the ends of writing this.

Thanks!

I'm a long time Blitzcrank player. He's been my favorite champion for a very long time now and I heard that his W had been changed so I popped back in for some games after taking a break and, well, I was kind of shocked at how little his new W seems to do. I hear that he was having a really high winrate for some reason, but the changes seems a bit over the top. Blitz has always had a very variable winrate that had more to do with the popular champions in the meta than his core kit.

Point 1 - The Chase is Un-Real

I would press w in spawn and watch my speed scale down and by the time the spell was half over the speed boost was, depending on rank, only about 10-15 points above my unbuffed speed. As an experiment I would follow my ADC and press w to see how much distance I could close before the slow hit and the overall distance gained was very small! Maybe about as big as tumble, but then the slow hit! It's like I gained somewhere around 100-200 depending on the rank, but then lost ~150 from the 30% slow.

Additionally,

As a Blitz support keeping on the enemy and autoing for that extra little bit of damage was always very important. Now, I feel as though my Q is this only thing that matters as very soon after the fight starts I am unable to maintain either a damage output or even stand next to a character thats moving.

Point 2 - Non-Support Blitzcranks no longer viable, even in theory

Blitz is a support. That is the primary thing he is used for, but I've played him in every lane, at least a dozen or more times. With this change to his W, top and jungle Blitzcrank are no longer viable. Riot has said on a number of occasions that they don't want to enforce the meta, that in theory a champion could go to any lane.

For Blitzcrank, this is no longer true. While I suppose you could still mid because, I can't really recommend it because, in a 1v1 situation Blitz's Q doesn't really do anything unless you can get them under your tower (you won't) and without an ADC to punish them for standing in the creeps, and therefore closer, there is no way blitz can reasonably interact mid. Then there is the nerf to the attack aspects, that blitz needed mid to clear creeps.

Speaking of clearing creeps, lets move to jungle blitz. This is huge. So huge that I am surprised that the attack speed only lasting for 5 seconds wasn't even mentioned in the notes I read! I read them a couple of times and my first thoughts were "so, the attack speed is an 8 second buff, but you are slowed for 1.5 seconds in the middle? What?" and then I was like "that doesn't make any sense, so why didn't they mention it"

Blitzcranks clear times were already nothing to write home about, but now they are downright abysmal.

Top lane blitz also can't expect to duel now because this change to his W allows him to be easily kitable and his ability to fight in a short skirmish is just not there anymore. Even if the change was a simple "here is the old W, but now it lasts 5 seconds instead of 8", which would be cutting the power of the spell by 40%, would be preferable to this, because then toplane champions wouldn't have that window to mess with him while he is powerless to interact. The only real way to keep the 1.5 second slow from creating inevitably terrible trades would be to not use your Q and E during actual fights, but to save them to compensate for your own abilities weakening you!

I know Blitz is mostly a support, I only have maybe 15 games as mid blitz, 30 as top blitz, and another 30 as jungle compared to the 1200+ I've done as support, but I feel as though these positions are now closed off as even semi-reasonable "trollpick" options.

Blitzcrank is a lovely, flavorful champion and deserves better than this.

Point 3 - It doesn't actually do anything

This new version of the speed boost is, I think, significantly worse even if there wasn't a 1.5 second 30% slow attached to it. Maybe 100-200 extra distance over the course of 2 second, as anything past 2 seconds has a negligible amount of bonus speed. It felt very bad to use. I was constantly apologizing to my team mates in the first game because I didn't know what to do. I could not escape the enemy team. Blitzcrank went from a champion whose only way to be free from the enemy was to run away. Now he has no skill that can be used to escape. I know the patch notes said they wanted a High Risk High Reward playstyle from his new W, but after using it is seems like a High Risk No Reward.

Point 4 - Marginal Advantage as it relates to skill choice in League of Legends

Skills in league of legends fall, generally, into 3 categories.

Need to Max 1 pointers

Tarics stun used to be a 1 pointer. A skill where a single point is enough to capture the majority of what the skill provides you and the team. The change from a flat 1.5 stun to a 1.1/1.2/etc. The only thing that scaled on old taric stun was the damage. Big deal. Many champions have these kinds of skills where they reach their realistic "full power" from their non-ultimate skills between levels at level 9 and 13, 5 points in one/two "need to max" skills, 1 points in their dump skill, with delays at 6/11 for a point in ult.

Riot has even changed champion skills from "need to max" to "1 pointers" relatively recently with the case of Ashe. The gold scaling being set to a flat 3 at every rank eliminated all those great CASH builds that fed early game before not doing much late game, but this was a change that made Ashe a better character for the kind of people who played her normally.

Blitzcrank, somewhat ironically, had no "Need to Max" skills

Before the change, the marginal bonus for Q was 1 second off a 20 second cooldown and a small damage boost. E was a second off the 9 second cooldown, which is cool, but it doesn't matter till the late game. His W had the biggest bonus, but the effects basically doubled over the course of 5 levels, so 50% of the power of the skill was at rank 1, with a 12.5% boost per rank (I forget the numbers exactly, but I believe this is right). It was nice, but hardly a game breaking difference. My friends in plat and diamond would make fun of me for maxing W first instead of E on the premise that you could get a second e in an early skirmish more easily on a 7, instead of 9, second cooldown. The E has even more of its power in its first rank as a 9v5 means that you've only improved the skill by about 38% with four skill points. The Q is even worse from a marginal advantage standpoint as the 20 vs 16 is only a 25% increase in the cooldown. The damage increase is negligible. The actual mechanic does not change. Blitz's Q has, by this metric, about a 2% increase in his Q per skill point spent.

Most characters will, within the first 4 levels, grab one point each in their 3 skills. Many in the first 3 levels because the marginal advantage in leveling up a skill is VERY VERY RARELY more advantageous than getting one of your other abilities. This is because, even though their margins are better than blitzcranks, the skill provides more value than level 2 of another.

This is no longer true for Blitzcrank which leads us into the very rare (in lol) skill:

Max Last

Blitz W, as it exists, does so little that the tiny amounts of bonus damage provided by Q, or the possibility of more E, is of more value than having a 3rd skill.

Point 4 - History of Blitz Nerfs

When his passive was changed I groaned, because I knew that it would no longer be up for basically every engagement. I knew this was too good. People had discovered the high mana builds that I loved so dearly (I commonly buy a tear first back, and a second one after I get my archangels) The way that they tuned his passive wasn't to make it so weak that it was effectively useless, but to change its cooldown. Why was a rework the solution here before simply adding to the cooldown of the W or shaving a second off of the duration?

Point 5 - You've just made the champions more dependent on his signature skill.

Without W as a way of applying pressure, scout the map, do other blitz things, you've pushed even more of blitzcranks power into his Q. Power, here, as defined by how relevant each of his skills in his kit are to his effectiveness in a fight, not a measure of overall strength. Blitz has no ability to competently roam. Cannot chase. His E and R are only useful once a fight has started, so now his Q is it. For all the talk that blitz only matters if his Q lands, this change just makes that more so

Point 6 - It just doesn't feel fun

Thats kind of all.

It just doesn't feel fun.

Blitzy is supposed to be my little speed demon, running around the map, keeping the enemy team scared because of my grab, and applying indirect pressures

Now though? It just doesn't feel fun.

Rito please, make it feel fun again.

Revert this change.

In Closing

I feel like the points I spend in W are a waste. That the mana I use on W is a waste. That I miss the playstyles that his old W allowed for. This change to a "high risk" skill has been a mistake as it removes a startling amount of blitzcranks identity as I elaborated earlier.

Please revert the change. Double the cooldown or something. Have it be a flat 20 seconds, 12 even if blitz builds 40% CDR, and blitz will have this windows of opportunity that you want him to have.

Hell, pull an Annie E and cut the durations and cooldown in half. Keep the mana cost the same so spamming it will drain you. You'll have blitz have his "slow" periods because the spell isn't up, but instead of it being because the skill itself slows you the skill is just off quicker since it only lasts 4 seconds at a time instead of 8.

Actually, you know what, after all this I have a wonderful, simple solution for you.

You guys can have this one for free.

"When blitzcrank fires his Q, his speed boost goes away" (let him keep the AS because otherwise you hurt fringe builds") This means that those "blitz runs close, fires q, runs off" no longer happen, but his ability to have all the other relevance is still around.

Also, thank you for everyone that got through this thing! I know it was long, but, well, Blitzcrank is my baby. When my buddy got me into league he told me to only buy one champion at the start and to save the rest of my IP for runes. After 2 weeks, I fell in love with blitzcrank and played him from level 8 to level 30, nothing but him, around 200 wins, so about 400 games, even before I reached level 30. All blitzcrank. all the time.

Writing this now, and maybe its just because its 4am and I've spent about 2 hours writing this, tears are streaming from my eyes. Blitzy is my champion. I've never met anyone in my circle of friends who can play him like me. I get compliments from people for it. It's a small, stupid part of who I am as a gamer and I don't think I can do it anymore. I've loved blitzcrank from the very first game back when I just referred to him as "metal pudge" and I just don't think I can play him like this.

I'm sorry.

Thanks to anyone who read this,

-Justin

65 Comments

Sightless6617 votes

Why was a rework the solution here before simply adding to the cooldown of the W or shaving a second off of the duration?

Neither of those really solve the problem. The issue they wanted to fix with the W is that when he's ahead (particularly in lane), he can just W up to an enemy, knock them up, and then hit an easy grab. He doesn't have to try to use his hook when he's ahead, because the W allowed him to ignore it. A longer cooldown or a slightly lower duration doesn't impede his ability to easily run up to me and punch me.

For all the talk that blitz only matters if his Q lands, this change just makes that more so

That was the intention of the change. The idea is that Blitzcrank's grab gives so much potential power, that he shouldn't be able to pressure lanes without needing it. You can argue that this isn't a worthwhile motivation (I'd disagree), or that it goes too far and/or wasn't the best way to accomplish this (I would absolutely agree with that), but it was the purpose of the change.

With that said, I don't like how the W has turned out.

TrueECP1 votes

{quoted}

Neither of those really solve the problem. The issue they wanted to fix with the W is that when he's ahead (particularly in lane), he can just W up to an enemy, knock them up, and then hit an easy grab. He doesn't have to try to use his hook when he's ahead, because the W allowed him to ignore it. A longer cooldown or a slightly lower duration doesn't impede his ability to easily run up to me and punch me.

That was the intention of the change. The idea is that Blitzcrank's grab gives so much potential power, that he shouldn't be able to pressure lanes without needing it. You can argue that this isn't a worthwhile motivation (I'd disagree), or that it goes too far and/or wasn't the best way to accomplish this (I would absolutely agree with that), but it was the purpose of the change.

With that said, I don't like how the W has turned out.

I get that, and applying lane pressure with ith W -> E -> Q has been something I've been doing for years (still hard to do if the opponent isn't out of position before swifties, but still) did the whole of lol just discover this aggressive blitzcrank play this year?

Did they say that somewhere else, because the patch notes specifically mention uptime, you know?

Also, if you're in melee range enough to E, then there is a really simple change to keep his mobility alive while keeping that annoying combo (and other annoyances out) without changing Blitz's core gameplay. When you use another ability your movespeed goes away.

I've always had an advantage against blitzcranks. As someone who has played him more than any other champion I found it relatively easy to figure out when and where people would aim q, but I get that it can be a problem since its so decisive. It just feels like his current W has a net negative overall with a temporary positive that doesn't accomplish much of anything.

Sightless663 votes

did the whole of lol just discover this aggressive blitzcrank play this year?

No. It's been a part of his play for a long time, but it is only recently that he has been too strong. When it came time to nerf something, making him more reliant on the hook was the direction they choose to take.

Did they say that somewhere else, because the patch notes specifically mention uptime, you know?

They didn't say it at the time of the nerf, but the did talk about the sprinting up and punching people as being a potential problem a few months ago. I remember them talking about it back in season 2 as well, back when he was the king of supports (although they choose other nerfs for him at the time). Given how they also talked about the W having enemies "fleeing in fear even after a grab gone wide", I think it was their motivation was to make him more grab-reliant.

When you use another ability your movespeed goes away.

Can you explain your thinking here? I don't see how this would adress the combo. Blitz sprints up, gets in melee range, and uses E and punches you. Seems the same as it has always been. Am I misunderstanding something? How do you see this change working?

It just feels like his current W has a net negative overall with a temporary positive that doesn't accomplish much of anything.

That's a fair feeling. The current implementation isn't the best way it could work. It does have problems.

Divewing1 votes

I feel that the biggest problem with Blitzcrank is his kit is simply inherently toxic. There is just WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too much power frontloaded into his q. Similar thing to: How do you buff Poppy?

Sightless662 votes

It's not toxic. There is a strong and reasonable way to play around it. It gives him something that is always useful, but he can be a weak or strong champion based on buffs or nerrfs to other parts of his kit. He also can be outplayed even when he is strong. Because Poppy's ultimate allows her to literally ignore 4 members of a team, playing against her when she is strong isn't possible. Her design problems are not comparable to any design problems Blitzcrank has.

Divewing1 votes

Didn't think of this, my bad for not being specific, i meant in regards to his theme. TL;DR, i pull someone to our team. That theme itself, how the hell do you balance that?

TrueECP1 votes

{quoted}

Didn't think of this, my bad for not being specific, i meant in regards to his theme. TL;DR, i pull someone to our team. That theme itself, how the hell do you balance that?

Same way blitz has been balanced for ages.

He really only does one thing.

That thing is stoppable.

When two teams are positioning, its pretty easy to just keep your tanks or mobility champs between blitz incase of a flash grab. Or just stand farther back.

Plus, if you force the engage yourself blitz doesn't do too much in a teamfight until a bunch of people are dead and he could help cleanup.

Divewing1 votes

But that's the entire point, the whole CHAMPION revolves around that single ability. It's a similar reason why I don't like Pantheon, he's the epitome of strong early, weak late. 1-5 damage is obnoxious, but then as soon as he hits 13 he falls off a cliff, even with this early-late mentality, I don't think any champion should have a power curve that steep from just levels

qetzel8 votes

  1. Good reason

  2. The chase IS unreal. That was the point of the nerf, I think. The W is now "reposition for Q" rather than a possible "Run away if you got too close or missed a Q on a priority target". There were also cases of Blitz just running in and pressing E. This probably was not desired. I suppose that Blitz not being able to get that little extra damage off by sticking to his enemy could have been a necessary side effect to the nerf.

  3. Sometimes off builds need to be sacrificed for game health and champion balance. It is a sad fact but I don't see a way around it.

  4. It is great for repositioning for the Q or getting a small amount of speed to close into range. If you, at max Q range, run to one side quickly you may be able to hook a carry around the tank. This is slightly easier than before as the movement speed is more sudden. It is worth taking.

  5. Just increasing the cooldown or lowering the duration would not have solved the problem, really. It would have limited his roaming instead. All it would do for the problem would make it so that Blitz just tries to combo less often.

  6. Yes. Unfortunately, if you can't remove much power from a champion's signature skill you are left with making the rest of the kit much weaker. Blitz has such a good Q that he has to have less power in the rest of his kit. This sucks but it is the price to pay for the hooks.

Context: Blitzcrank by nature is a champion all about risk vs. reward. Land Rocket Grab on a priority target and you've single (robot) handedly won an entire teamfight - miss, and you're out of a sizeable cooldown and inviting your opponents to a big ol' counter-attack party. For a champion so steeped in this mindset however, Overdrive's up-time mitigated Blitzcrank's risk a little too much, leaving enemies still fleeing in fear even after a grab gone wide. Shortening the windows 'Crank has to make his big plays while increasing his burst of speed pushes this dichotomy further, but beware running out of steam if you misplay the moment. From the patch notes 5.7

TrueECP3 votes

{quoted}

  1. Good reason

  2. The chase IS unreal. That was the point of the nerf, I think. The W is now "reposition for Q" rather than a possible "Run away if you got too close or missed a Q on a priority target". There were also cases of Blitz just running in and pressing E. This probably was not desired. I suppose that Blitz not being able to get that little extra damage off by sticking to his enemy could have been a necessary side effect to the nerf.

  3. Sometimes off builds need to be sacrificed for game health and champion balance. It is a sad fact but I don't see a way around it.

  4. It is great for repositioning for the Q or getting a small amount of speed to close into range. If you, at max Q range, run to one side quickly you may be able to hook a carry around the tank. This is slightly easier than before as the movement speed is more sudden. It is worth taking.

  5. Just increasing the cooldown or lowering the duration would not have solved the problem, really. It would have limited his roaming instead. All it would do for the problem would make it so that Blitz just tries to combo less often.

  6. Yes. Unfortunately, if you can't remove much power from a champion's signature skill you are left with making the rest of the kit much weaker. Blitz has such a good Q that he has to have less power in the rest of his kit. This sucks but it is the price to pay for the hooks.

Context: Blitzcrank by nature is a champion all about risk vs. reward. Land Rocket Grab on a priority target and you've single (robot) handedly won an entire teamfight - miss, and you're out of a sizeable cooldown and inviting your opponents to a big ol' counter-attack party. For a champion so steeped in this mindset however, Overdrive's up-time mitigated Blitzcrank's risk a little too much, leaving enemies still fleeing in fear even after a grab gone wide. Shortening the windows 'Crank has to make his big plays while increasing his burst of speed pushes this dichotomy further, but beware running out of steam if you misplay the moment. From the patch notes 5.7

Thank you for the in depth reply,

  1. Was running in and pressing e ever mentioned by riot? Its a basic combination of the two weaker skills in the champions kit to apply some pressure. Rarely actually get the E off, sometimes you would just press W and run in aggressive in lane, take a couple hits, but zone a little.

  2. Phrased as generally as that, no, of course some things like that can happen (oh, hey, AP Yi, we've missed you. Speaking in generalities like that is a bit much for me though. The issue here though is that the way that Riot addressed it was via uptime, as the quote of 5.7's notes says the explanation given was only about the uptime and not the actual power level of the skill. If the problem was actually uptime, then they skipped the first waves of "keep the champion the same, but tune the numbers" nerfs and went straight to a rework that, for the reasons I've said, is really terrible.

  3. How much do you play blitzcrank? Unless you are within about 50-75 distance of Q and the enemy has absolutely no escape options left then this doesn't do anything.

  4. The combo less often sounds a lot like blitz having less uptime, which was the direct goal as per riots patch notes, and therefore a fine solution or, at least, a solution worth trying.

  5. Right, which is why blitz ult is a mid sized nuke that with a silence so short is basically a channel interrupter and a melee range single target knockup. The issue isn't that blitz Q isn't his defining and strongest skill, but that this change to W has made his kit even more incestuous and "I'm only here for the one skill" than it already was.

W allowed for all kinds of things to happen and there are ways of tuning his power that doesn't result in a 7 point drop in winrate overnight. The new W is really bad.

  1. If the speeds and issue, tune the numbers down, make the cooldown 30 seconds, make it cost 150 mana, make it both, then slowly scale it back as they watch the effect on the gameplay.

Blitz W, for me at least, was just as much an important zoning tool, survivability tool, and overall way to be useful to the team as the q was. See, blitz q is great when you're rolling in the jungle with a team mate or doing late game 5 packs, but what the hell is he supposed to do in the meantime now? :-/

qetzel3 votes

Nice response.

I think that "Uptime" in the patch notes means "duration". The W had a long enough duration that it left "enemies still fleeing in fear even after a grab gone wide". This distinction is further exemplified by "Shortening the windows 'Crank has to make his big plays".

  1. I will admit that part wasn't well thought out. The other parts of my response to 3) still stand though.

  2. I believe that is what left "enemies still fleeing in fear even after a grab gone wide". It was mentioned explicitly in a (well worded, reasonable) complaint thread shortly after the nerfs went live. Given the pressure the Q gives I don't think the pressure from this combo was healthy.

TrueECP2 votes

{quoted}

Nice response.

I think that "Uptime" in the patch notes means "duration". The W had a long enough duration that it left "enemies still fleeing in fear even after a grab gone wide". This distinction is further exemplified by "Shortening the windows 'Crank has to make his big plays".

  1. I will admit that part wasn't well thought out. The other parts of my response to 3) still stand though.

  2. I believe that is what left "enemies still fleeing in fear even after a grab gone wide". It was mentioned explicitly in a (well worded, reasonable) complaint thread shortly after the nerfs went live. Given the pressure the Q gives I don't think the pressure from this combo was healthy.

  1. Thats not it. Uptime is a different thing that duration. For example, lets say that blitzcrank was kept exactly the same as before, but the cooldown started when the spell was over, instead of on cast, which has been done to subtly tweak the overall power level of other champions skills. The duration is the same, but uptime got nerfed.

  2. Ok then, heres the short version. Blitz W, as it currently stands, is the worth positioning tool in all of League of Legends and thats before you consider that he slows himself afterwords.

  3. That actually plays into blitz high risk high reward gameplay though (and why his tankiness was nerfed last year)

Walking into the enemy to knock someone up (and press R, most likely) while your grab is down means you're going to mean you take a ton of hits. I've done that exact line of events you've spoken of.

I routinely get chunked, worth it if I can weaken the enemy to make them uncomfortable in lane, or, say, if we both end u taking 40% and then, 15 seconds later, they have to fear the grab again, but thats a lot of many early game and those kinds of hyper aggressive plays drained my mana pool like nothing else in league.

Also,

I think plenty of players habitually run away from blitzcrank even if they know, or should know, that Q is still on cooldown for 10 more seconds, 5 more seconds, is it back up? Does it comes up in another 2 seconds? B-Thump, HA HA HA

Crett6 votes

I have only one thing to say. item 3069 item 3800item 3284 (+ MS Quints and masteries)

The slow will be near completely unnoticable, I swear. As a person who played the heck out of Blitzcrank around his rework time, this was able to close the void in my heart

TrueECP4 votes

Its not just the slow. Its, well, a lot of stuff. I went a little overboard

I wonder who downvoted this :-/

New title! I wrote the original one first and then it spiraled.

LegendaryLemur4 votes

{quoted} I wonder who downvoted this :-/

I did.

TrueECP4 votes

{quoted}

I did.

Shit man, who pissed in your cereal?

My post has the feels and da logic :P

magee1012 votes

I upvoted for you! I do thing you have some valid arguments here and hopefully Riot will take a look at this and think about the things you've said, but also keep in mind what that guy posted above, sure it changes your build paths and maybe your rune/mastery changes but you can get the same speedy bastard in the support role at least that there always was.

As for the other roles, I think you could still play a Blitz jungler, just after level 3 you'd be more focused on stealing the enemies buffs and big monsters than doing your own (or luring them to "counter jungle" you and taking your own damn buff XD) Just think of creative ways to do things. The problem I think with when they tweak champions is they are doing it from a Ranked perspective, not a Normals perspective.

TrueECP2 votes

{quoted}

I upvoted for you! I do thing you have some valid arguments here and hopefully Riot will take a look at this and think about the things you've said, but also keep in mind what that guy posted above, sure it changes your build paths and maybe your rune/mastery changes but you can get the same speedy bastard in the support role at least that there always was.

As for the other roles, I think you could still play a Blitz jungler, just after level 3 you'd be more focused on stealing the enemies buffs and big monsters than doing your own (or luring them to "counter jungle" you and taking your own damn buff XD) Just think of creative ways to do things. The problem I think with when they tweak champions is they are doing it from a Ranked perspective, not a Normals perspective.

Blitz jungle is super difficult to pull off since most of the gank paths you need to do are kind of opposite to even use your Q. old way was to run in with W, but that doesn't work now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH1mvNRrBpo

I found a video!

It cuts off right when the slow kicks in and blitz is, maybe, a character model ahead of the one who just walks. By the time the slow is factored in...

Its the samegame, he just ran the same location twice in a row and then put the video side by side.

Jungle blitz ability to gank was predicated, largely, off of his W. Jungle blitz also has to build actual damage, which is heavily nerfed by the current W being 3 seconds shorter, having the self slow, at which point anyone can walk away from you because your move speed will be somewhere near 250.

Not even the ganks though, the fact that his steroid, and therefore clear time, is that much worse

:(

Earl Eulrich5 votes

Well, i agree on the AS-part, he really should get a buff to his base-as or make his autoattacks mark the target so that the passive of his ult always hits the target he is hitting (though this could be a little strong). For the MS->Slow I think this is absolutely necessary. With the old version you just could roll all over anything as soon as you had a slight lead, as it had been fairly impossible to ever get away from Blitz steamrolling towards you. Now there´s a clear chance to play around it and hook-accuracy is more required (instead of just rushing into faces first).

TrueECP4 votes

One more note,

This is a skill, a complete skill, of which most champions only get 3, that is almost solely about making the champion faster.

It should do that well.

magee1013 votes

I completly agree with this. Honestly I think the best thing they could have done was kept the ramp up instead of the decay, and then cut down the time (to six seconds, 5 is a little too short) and then do the speed debuff at the end of that. It allows you to get out the shit situation you found yourself in, but if someone else is paying attention on the enemy team and you didn't pick the best escape route, you're still vulnerable to being grabbed up by someone else

TrueECP1 votes

{quoted}

I completly agree with this. Honestly I think the best thing they could have done was kept the ramp up instead of the decay, and then cut down the time (to six seconds, 5 is a little too short) and then do the speed debuff at the end of that. It allows you to get out the shit situation you found yourself in, but if someone else is paying attention on the enemy team and you didn't pick the best escape route, you're still vulnerable to being grabbed up by someone else

Yeah, the whole removing an escape tool while not even mentioning that is just...

Also, apparently a bunch of people are downvoting a 2100 word post that makes a case, with as much backing as I can for my opinion.

This is why reddit style forums are stupid :-/ Promotes group think

Sirsir3 votes

2100 words is not a good thing for casual forums. Its great for school essays, or direct letters to the dev team, but for casual discussion it just makes people think 'this might not be one giant QQ, but why bother.' When your TLDR is the better part of 4 paragraphs long its just one giant wall of text.

And you have 8 upvotes at the time I said this, 6 four hours ago when you made that comment.

Phoenix Kotori 4 votes

No he has enough power in the other 3 skills to make up for it. And it does it plenty well, it's just a now a burst of speed, not sustained near 90% uptime movement bonus when he maxed CDR with no downside.

That said I think it would be fair to buff his base AS or AS/lvl a bit to compensate for the attack speed lose some, or make the it a bit stronger on the active.

Two Right Wings 4 votes

I've seen blitz cranks using as it was designed to be used as a burst engage tool since the Nerf went live. What his W isn't doing anymore is providing -infinite chase -excessively low risk high reward roam -complete river and vision control through all of lane phase

I'm am very satisfied with these changes. They for thematically and from a balance perspective. Blitz was one of the most frustrating supports to play against because of how he was essentially supporting both mid and not while invading without ever missing exp while also bring able to zone you from following with his hook threat

TrueECP2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gaurdian Angel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2OX38rAx,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2015-04-25T16:37:08.423+0000)

I've seen blitz cranks using as it was designed to be used as a burst engage tool since the Nerf went live. What his W isn't doing anymore is providing -infinite chase -excessively low risk high reward roam -complete river and vision control through all of lane phase

I'm am very satisfied with these changes. They for thematically and from a balance perspective. Blitz was one of the most frustrating supports to play against because of how he was essentially supporting both mid and not while invading without ever missing exp while also bring able to zone you from following with his hook threat

All of that can be addressed without removing the core functionally

And now, what?

No chase No roam No utility

You can tune down these issues, easily, as I've elaborated. This rework made the skill effectively useless outside of an exceptionally narrow context that. The video I've posted in replies to people has a side by side of the same blitz crank walking. He is about a body length ahead of the "just walking" blitz, before the slow kicks in.

Two Right Wings 3 votes

{quoted}

All of that can be addressed without removing the core functionally

And now, what?

No chase No roam No utility

You can tune down these issues, easily, as I've elaborated. This rework made the skill effectively useless outside of an exceptionally narrow context that. The video I've posted in replies to people has a side by side of the same blitz crank walking. He is about a body length ahead of the "just walking" blitz, before the slow kicks in.

No roam? I roam every game as Leona who has no movespeed bonuses, the difference is if I roam, I have to commit to it because I don't get to walk at mach 12. If I roam at a bad time on Leona I get punished. If you roam at a bad time on post nerf blitz, even of your gank fails you lose absolutely nothing. No utility? What is a short CD knock up, long range pull, aoe silence, and respectable tank stats combined with an excellent burst engage tool with a kit perfectly synergistic with Righteous Glory? No chase? You've got a speed burst so you can chase for 1 hook. Don't miss. You are being over dramtic. Your champion hasn't been olafd. It hasn't been sona'd, he hasn't been soraka'd. He has been balanced.

Theorchero3 votes

I don't mind the slowing mechanic, I dislike that the movement speed bonus is shit because it falls off so quickly that you lose ground on first rank W.

Solidair33 votes

I think it was designed to be an overall nerf. His moment of weakness was too hard to exploit and so they made it bigger.

Kieferr3 votes

-oppressive laning phase for his enemies -low risk high reward style of play ( this new W adds that risk to make him healthier) -has ability to singlehandedly win a team fight in one ability -55%winrate, which dropped to 50 after this Nerf, and 50% is still considered incredibly powerful. Yeah, I really can't sympathize with you. Blitz really deserved thus Nerf, stop crying and handle it

Champion Skin2 votes

He also has the ability to single-handedly lose a teamfight as well if he pulls that Amumu or tank into his team (and you can't really say his W adds that much risk... after all if using it was that risky... why even bother with it? Especially as you would likely leave it at rank 1 )

Abyssphere1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2OX38rAx,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2015-04-26T00:11:53.723+0000)

He also has the ability to single-handedly lose a teamfight as well if he pulls that Amumu or tank into his team (and you can't really say his W adds that much risk... after all if using it was that risky... why even bother with it? Especially as you would likely leave it at rank 1 )

The ability for a really dumb Blitzcrank player to do something bad doesn't make up for the 95% of times where he hooks a worthy target. Sometimes pulling a tank in isn't even the worst thing in the world if they are far enough from their team because you get to blow up the enemy's initiation and then stomp the 5v4. Besides, there's no incorrect target to hook in the laning phase. You'll blow up whoever you land your Q on, and win the lane.

"if using W was that risky... why even bother with it?" this is the mentality of the freelo abusing Blitz players. Most champions have risk in their kits, but Blitz players find that hard to imagine because he has had zero for so long. There are an endless amount of risky abilities in this game and they're used because there is reward to the risk. Death Lotus is the riskiest ability in the entire game, for example. Blitz's W has the same reward it always had, it just has risk too. Which is good, his kit has been basically impossible to punish for forever.

SgtCrispy2 votes

Non-Support Blitzcranks no longer viable, even in theory

I don't think the W change affected this.

TrueECP3 votes

{quoted}

I don't think the W change affected this.

I elaborate precisely why this was in the original post.

For example, if one were to try and jungle him, the uptime on his W being lower and the speed nerfs make his clear atrocious

Sirsir1 votes

Yes but Blitz wasn't ever really meant to be a jungler, at least not since his initial release. The jungle has changed SO much since then that its never really been viable.

Elphrihaim2 votes

Hmm...

I'd say that removing the slow afterward would be a fine thing to do; and definitely agree on needing to increase the timer for the AS.

It seems really weird to have that large of a drawback, to me.

I don't even play Blitzcrank anymore and I think that adding a slow to the ability ruins his fun.

I know it certainly ruins the fun in facing against Blitzcrank, though I did really like seeing the duration of the speed go down (because W->run->E->R ... -> Q was very frustrating).

TrueECP2 votes

{quoted}

Hmm...

I'd say that removing the slow afterward would be a fine thing to do; and definitely agree on needing to increase the timer for the AS.

It seems really weird to have that large of a drawback, to me.

I don't even play Blitzcrank anymore and I think that adding a slow to the ability ruins his fun.

I know it certainly ruins the fun in facing against Blitzcrank, though I did really like seeing the duration of the speed go down (because W->run->E->R ... -> Q was very frustrating).

The duration going down would be fine, its one of my proposed alternative changes.

The huge drawback is what kills me, and that the upside is so small.

And, sure, having a champion use every skills they have on you is going to be bothersome, but, like, if he is running into melee, shoot him, you know?

A Miss Fortune2 votes

Blitz is an extremely overpowered champion. His damage and crowd control makes him insanely difficult to ever fight if he's not played as support, even then he does way too much damage.

He is rarely played outside of support, but he is so difficult to actually lane against or just duel in general. I'm surprised Blitz top isn't really popular in particular.

TenSlashTen2 votes

the W nerf was to stop blitz from walking up and knocking up into hook with no counterplay.

This can still happen they just have to literally stand there for you to do it now. So basically he still crushes idiots.

But against anyone else you actually can run away.

Blitz was supposed to be a decent initatior for a team that lacked it. He wasn't support to be some garunteed pick that if ahead could completely crush and zone out chances of making a come back. A good blitz can agree when you're ahead theres really no way to stop him.

But at least if you're even theres plenty of chances to land hooks or dodge hooks.

Dealing with blitz helping an aggro jungler invade was really the worst I've played with an against it lol.

Yeah it sucks. But if you were an eve main like me, you'd be so used to being nerfed you just expect it at this point. Be glad they didnt shave off 25% of your damage on an ability for no reason other than because their rework was shit and they know it so they fall back to nerfing numbers.

Champion Skin1 votes

Ahh.. evelynn... they really should decide what they want with her... Well from her kit as it is now... I would guess they would want her to be a sustained damage bruiser or something... Q + E sustained damage + W + R to stick to targets and R for durability so you are able to stick around for a while

Though I don't really feel that fits Evelynns theme very much... then again I guess riot just doesn't know how to deal with evelynn stealth yet

TenSlashTen1 votes

idgaf about her theme At all. Never have never will. I like her kit. Always have always will. She could be a fucking floating dick and I'd still play her because the kit feels good to play when used correctly.

Riot just hates when she's viable because she's not that flashy bullshit zed or lee sin thats gonna jump half a screen/full screen and do shit and animations and blah blha blah.

She's just not flashy enough. Simple as that. Only reason she got nerfed. Same with riven. Not flashy or interesting to watch.

Not that the pro scene has been interesting to watch since season 2 where there was actual champion pools instead of 3-5 champions and nothing else in every role.

Champion Skin1 votes

Riot doesn't want her to have good damage... because damage + permanent invisibility = toxic Well that seems like how riot thinks about it

TenSlashTen1 votes

No thats what casuals think. Riot gave her this rework. They obviously agree with it.

magee1011 votes

You can actually counter act the slow a bit, If you see yourself in a bad spot, and hit that W just a second or two after being hit, you can outrun anyone but super kiters long enough for boots of mobility to kick in. If you are truly support blitz you probably should have a Talismen of ascension, save the speed boost for when your W runs out. There are other such tactics (such as a Mikael's crucible on yourself to heal and remove the slow debuff) that can be used to counteract the new W thing. I personally see it as a gift, blitz as he was was stupidly annoying, he could not only catch up to pretty much anyone unless they had wall jumps (at which a good Q just cancelled that anyways) but he could out run anyone as well. Now it is a bit easier to catch up with the guy, but you still have to whittle through his health and mana shield. You want sticking power? Try Frost Queen or Randuun's as part of your build.

I liked your discussion however, it was well thought out and presented, there is just things you can do to get around the new skill that is built into the game already, just need a little forward thinking and strategic thought :) See you on the Rift!

Rico Nasty1 votes

The thing about Blitz is they nerfed him in all the wrong places. The only actual nerf he needs is the range on his grab.

TrueECP2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Velvets,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2OX38rAx,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2015-04-25T16:18:33.031+0000)

The thing about Blitz is they nerfed him in all the wrong places. The only actual nerf he needs is the range on his grab.

He already has the shortest range of the three grab champions. Nerfing missle speed by 50 or 100 or narrowing the hit box are better things to tune.

rampaging poet4 votes

His grab is also the most devastating because it pulls you all the way to him - it's less risky for your team when you land it and harder for the enemy to escape because they have farther to go.

I'd agree with a missile speed or narrower hitbox instead of a range nerf though. The problem was always his Q because it's too good at zoning and initiating. They nerfed his W because it made standing behind minions completely useless as a counter to his Q past level three or so when he can actually tank some harass. Unless the creep wave was frozen literally at your turret range, he could press W, run around your minions, chase you down, and be pretty much guaranteed to land Q or force flash. W let him run close enough to targets without warning that you had to predict when he would stop to Q to have a chance at dodging - if you try to weave back and forth he'll just run you down, and he's almost certain to be close enough that if you wait for the animation to start it's too late to dodge at all.

I'm sure that's less of an issue at higher ELOs where people are better at predicting skillshots and punishing cooldowns, but even professional games can be made or broken on one Q. Giving him the tools to land it reliably with very little risk (My escape is down? Who cares, so is their ADC) just makes him oppressive.

As fun as he is to play, he can be horrible to play against. At my ELO at least a lane against Blitzcrank comes down to whether the Blitz player is any good. If I'm up against a new Blitzcrank who keeps whiffing Qs it's a fun lane where I get to fight the enemy ADC and try to poke Blitz down while still respecting the threat of his hook because eventually he will land one. However, if I'm against a Blitz that's even slightly better than me or my support, the lane is over and all I can hope to do is farm behind my turret because if I take one step out of line he will end me, especially after he hits six. I can't even punish him for missing a Q because either he doesn't fire without a sure hit or I'm far enough behind that I'll lose the trade to the enemy ADC if I try.

The W nerf makes it a little easier to escape him when he tries stuff like that. The reduced overall speed and duration means he has to be closer before he starts charging, giving more warning than if he's well over a Q-length away and on the other side of minions before suddenly being in your face. If they've made him less frustrating to lane against, the nerf has succeeded in my eyes. His Q is still so powerful that he can win lane on the threat of using it alone. Making it harder to actually land and harder for him to escape when he misses one pushes him from perfectly safe to actually being high-risk, high-reward.

Sorry, that turned into more of a rant than I first planned. I don't play a lot of Blitzcrank, so I'm not sure whether the nerf went too far or not. However, as someone that often laned against Blitzcrank the nerf seems like a step in the right direction. They can't touch his Q without wrecking his identity, so they had to nerf his roaming and safety instead.

Sirsir3 votes

His Q isn't really a big offender (aside from the stupid hitbox, but thats hardly a Morgana Blitz Thresh only DrMundo issue). His Q has plenty of useful counterplay, either sitting behind creeps or careful vision control. The problem was his old W making the Q counterplay invalid, and its almost constant uptime + passive making him impossible to catch.

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