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Certain Champions can't be good because of unskilled players...

dude30500··3 votes·615 views

Basically champions like Yi, Trynd, Garen, Darius and Kat can't be "good", and i mean good at a high level because they pubstomp too hard at lower elo. Well no matter what state the champions are in, players are going to cry about these champions and other things instead of trying to improve. I mean I agree it's not fun to get rekt by a Garen every game, But at LEAST make them a niche pick in some way or form that isn't as autoloss for high elo/competitive play. It takes way too long for LoL to see these changes to even address these issues if Riot wants there to be no "anti-fun" champions. It would also remedy the LCS issue where only 15 champions get play. I know many people and streamers have issue with the live Team balance.

25 Comments

Pika Fox2 votes

Trynd was a good high level counter to jayce

Garen is capable of working at higher level

Kat is good right now in high level play

Darius has been used in tournaments

The only "non viable" champ you listed was yi, and even he can be used by a yi main.

SEKAI5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1esQoRZU,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-02-16T13:10:36.715+0000)

The only "non viable" champ you listed was yi, and even he can be used by a yi main.

There were few Urgot mains when his balance state was looking like a plague aftermath too, and yeah they won games with Urgot in that state.

Doesn't mean Urgot was in any way, shape, or form having a good balance though.

While not as extreme (though Yi's actually getting there), but pretty similar stuff.

Pika Fox1 votes

People were being reported for playing eve. A few patches later, people found out eve was still brokenly OP and she had to get nerfed again, well after riot intentionally left her in the gutter prior to her first rework with the stealth rework. A champion being trash often ends up being subjective, and you might just find a hidden gem if you can figure out what to do with them.

SEKAI1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1esQoRZU,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-02-16T13:20:06.112+0000)

People were being reported for playing eve. A few patches later, people found out eve was still brokenly OP and she had to get nerfed again, well after riot intentionally left her in the gutter prior to her first rework with the stealth rework. A champion being trash often ends up being subjective, and you might just find a hidden gem if you can figure out what to do with them.

Eve is a perma stealth champ (or was, now she's only perma stealth after 6).

Her dyamics is VERY different to a stat check melee ADC who has literally 0 CC and barely any utility.

There is some utility in his Q to dodge things, but it's vastly overshadowed by the fact the damn thing is so broken it doesn't work half the god damn time and Riot claims it's unfixable and refuses to do anything to fix it. His W could be used as a pseudo parry but its impact on his balance is so negligible it's HARDLY something that can weigh let alone break a champ's balance. The rest of his kit are as straightforward as they can get, there is no hidden factor to them, and thus no hidden power.

The last time he was legitimately OP because of his own design reasons was what, 6 years ago, or 7? Any time after that he was broken because of stupid items that also didn't just broke him, but all the other AA champs in the game.

Yi is not a "hidden gem", man. Not at all.

Pika Fox1 votes

Yi is generally pretty good at dueling, farming and split pushing. Im sure he has his matchups where he does well, same as everyone else, especially with Susan being pretty meta.

SEKAI1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1esQoRZU,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-16T13:35:26.417+0000)

Yi is generally pretty good at dueling, farming and split pushing. Im sure he has his matchups where he does well, same as everyone else, especially with Susan being pretty meta.

There were matchup and situations where old Urgot did well too, and it's not like Urgot wasn't good at dueling.

It's the combination and comparison of ALL of the factors that made those picks trash.

Yi doesn't get statistically listed as the worst jger on the roster and one of the worst champ in the entire game for no reason.

......

EDIT: Also Yi is not a good duelist until he's fed. Before that he dies to most duels due to a lack of base stats and his high base CD.

Pika Fox1 votes

Doesnt mean he cant be used, and hes also still good for newer players. Riot needs more champs like sona, yi, garen, soraka and annie in their game.

SEKAI1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1esQoRZU,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-16T13:42:50.971+0000)

Doesnt mean he cant be used, and hes also still good for newer players. Riot needs more champs like sona, yi, garen, soraka and annie in their game.

Yi is literally unplayable above D5 or so, because Riot nuked his balance state to make ways for low elo QQs about him.

You CAN use Yi , just like you COULD use old Urgot. But it doesn't change the fact those picks are bad.

I am also not saying Yi and Garen and whatnot shouldn't exist in the game. What shouldn't happen is having the game balance being influenced and dictated by bad players. Bad players get rekted by anything anyway, why nerf Yi and other PERCEIVED "easy" champ for it? Makes no sense.

Pika Fox1 votes

Riot has to balance for all ELOs. Yes, they primarily balance for competitive, and generally "Stop fucking up" is a valid argument. Still, you cant have someone just instawin low elo all day because they picked one champ.

Also, things like garen and annie tend to get nerfed for high elo rather than low. Theyre consistent, and garen especially has little skill expression. Them being able to function extremely well in high elo generally means theyre overtuned as a result. Which is fine. Theyre still playable in high elo, and anniebot has shown annie can be played up to around master level at least, which is more than enough for the game. Not every champ needs to be challenger tier viable/LCS viable.

SEKAI1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1esQoRZU,comment-id=000200000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-16T13:59:42.430+0000)

Riot has to balance for all ELOs. Yes, they primarily balance for competitive, and generally "Stop fucking up" is a valid argument. Still, you cant have someone just instawin low elo all day because they picked one champ.

Also, things like garen and annie tend to get nerfed for high elo rather than low. Theyre consistent, and garen especially has little skill expression. Them being able to function extremely well in high elo generally means theyre overtuned as a result. Which is fine. Theyre still playable in high elo, and anniebot has shown annie can be played up to around master level at least, which is more than enough for the game. Not every champ needs to be challenger tier viable/LCS viable.

Those champs do not insta win in low elos and had almost never been doing so. When it did, it's mostly because of item and other 'external' balancing issues than the champs' own problems.

They just get QQ'ed because of reactionary scapegoating with some arbitrary and nonsensical claims that they're """easy""" and therefore should be trash. Most of these """easy""" champs almost NEVER appeared in tournament for a god damn reason, even before and without Riot nuking them into the ground to appease the fucking tards.

It's also baffling that you can just arbitraryly define which champs should or should not be viable in high elo. Why do you think League's game balance has been a joke within the gaming community as a whole for as long as it has existed? Because most games believe that bad players have less say on game balance just like bad mechanics shouldn't be fixing your car, but I guess Riot believes otherwise.

Pika Fox1 votes

Riots balance has been a "joke" because players dont understand how to balance and assume they know better than riot, when its clear that they do not. (IE all the zoe hate instead of just learning how to play against her, but thats normal for assassins, zed and leblanc got the same, and id argue either of them are infinitely more annoying than zoe)

Low ELO doesnt have much say on gamestay and balance, but riot isnt going to just let something curbstomp low elo either. Almost all changes in LoL history have been aimed at tournament play. Your argument falls apart just on its face as such.

SEKAI1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1esQoRZU,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-16T14:46:27.830+0000)

Riots balance has been a "joke" because players dont understand how to balance and assume they know better than riot, when its clear that they do not. (IE all the zoe hate instead of just learning how to play against her, but thats normal for assassins, zed and leblanc got the same, and id argue either of them are infinitely more annoying than zoe)

Low ELO doesnt have much say on gamestay and balance, but riot isnt going to just let something curbstomp low elo either. Almost all changes in LoL history have been aimed at tournament play. Your argument falls apart just on its face as such.

You're defending a champ that has almost the strongest CC in the game who also possess legit 1 shot power (and often from nearly off-screen with extreme missile speed and low as fuck CDs), as well as having one of the worst implementation of RNG, is somehow balanced. No she isn't. Her entire design is literally the kind of design that is 100% unbalanced in Riot's own words and ideals, she ticks all the boxes of what Riot themselves say is unbalanced. She simply isn't balanced.

And it's funny, of all the example you can use to support your argument, you have to use Zoe, the champ that goes against every line in balance philosophy of Riot, to say that Riot's balance has no issues and the problems are on the players. No, you just destroyed your own argument.

......

The tournament players are not asking for highly snowball matches and locked in meta nerfing of anything that slightly deviates from that formula. It was Riot who convinced themselves of it.

I was also never saying that Riot only listens to low elo players, but that many decisions are decided by low elo players. The pros never asked 80% of the champs to be unviable pr at least highly disadvantaged in high level play, it was the low elo players who believed those champs are too """low skill""" for it.

Pika Fox1 votes

As a support main, Zoe, by definition, has the weakest hard CC in the game of any hard CC spell. Its a hard CC that has a 2.3 second delay before activating and breaks on any champion damage. Her E has a lot of bonuses because of how inherently weak the CC itself is. People blow it completely out of proportion to an absurd extent. She literally cannot 1 shot you, she uses 3 spells to 100-0 someone, and even then the team has approximately 3 seconds to react to her.

Tournament play doesnt have highly snowbally matches, and almost never will. The only times a tournament game snowballs out of control is when theres a major teamfight ace, and even then theyre usually capable of using their champs base kits to stay in it enough to turn if given the opportunity.

Almost every champ is viable at pro level, its just many arent viable in tournament play because tournament play, by definition, is risk v reward. You cant play 300-2000 games in a tournament to see who averages where, you only get 3. Some champs are just too risky.

SEKAI1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1esQoRZU,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-16T15:18:33.554+0000)

As a support main, Zoe, by definition, has the weakest hard CC in the game of any hard CC spell. Its a hard CC that has a 2.3 second delay before activating and breaks on any champion damage. Her E has a lot of bonuses because of how inherently weak the CC itself is. People blow it completely out of proportion to an absurd extent. She literally cannot 1 shot you, she uses 3 spells to 100-0 someone, and even then the team has approximately 3 seconds to react to her.

It's a 4.2 second CC because the first portion also gives slow for 2.2 seconds and 2 second stun that also gives amplified damage, it also has a soft reset, and leaves a trap on the floor when you miss so even if you miss you're still rewarded anyway. It's one of the strongest CC in the entire game, if not THE strongest CC given it's short CD at the benefit of being a normal spell, while sporting this kind of insane power budget.

Zoe can also 1shot with Q and R alone, and R only gives distance so technically just Q alone. There was a clip from pro match that shows that. It is entirely possible. In fact, I just happened to stumble upon Tyler1's stream today, one of the matches he was tilted because his team was wiped by 2 Zoe Qs and 2 Es, where each Q killed a teammate from full health and E can wipe half.

Tournament play doesnt have highly snowbally matches, and almost never will. The only times a tournament game snowballs out of control is when theres a major teamfight ace, and even then theyre usually capable of using their champs base kits to stay in it enough to turn if given the opportunity.

They don't. But that's not stopping Riot trying their hardest to make everything snowbally as fuck to try and make pro matches "exciting" when in reality it only makes pros play more and more conservative.

Almost every champ is viable at pro level, its just many arent viable in tournament play because tournament play, by definition, is risk v reward. You cant play 300-2000 games in a tournament to see who averages where, you only get 3. Some champs are just too risky.

This makes no sense, you claim that every champ is viable in pro level but at the same time not really because some are too risky. That's a contradiction.

Also risks will be taken by pros if there is enough payoff to justify the risk; not all teams will do it, but certainly some will take the chance. The reason why almost all pro teams do not take any risk when it comes to picks is because there is no payoffs to be had due to Riot's balancing.

Why would you want to play Master Yi who has a shitty early game, has 0 CC, is glassy as hell despite being melee, who no matter how fed he is can still be shut down by a single hard CC, and his saving grace Alpha Strike is bugged as shit that doesn't even work half the god damn time while Riot refuses to fix it, when you could play many others else who literally does everything better than him?

It's not just risk vs reward, most of League's pro scene comes down to trash vs meta. Ofc people always go for meta in League tournaments because the other option is literally no different from inting especially in their level of play. It's clearly a balance problem.

Pika Fox1 votes

Slows are inherently less powerful than hard CC. By definition its the weakest hard CC in the game because of its delay before activation.

Think about it this way; Morg Q now slows you for 2.3 seconds before giving you a hard CC that is immediately broken upon any form of champion damage. Morg's Q is now inherently weaker than it used to be. This is why Zoe E has a relatively short CD, can travel through terrain, and has a damage amp on it. The CC itself is inherently incredibly weak compared to all other forms of hard CC.

Q damage is based on distance Q travels from last Q activation, so no, RQ is still R doing damage. And zoe has a difficult time killing anyone with just RQ unless shes already at endgame build against an ADC, which shes not at at all stages of the game. Most of the game she will still need E, or the enemy to not be at full HP.

Theyre not making things snowbally as fuck, solo queue players inherently play worse and build more damage making games snowbally on its own. Riots changes on the PBE only affect 30+ min games, and people are still complaining about them even though it clearly has 0 impact on them.

No, it makes perfect sense. Pro play =/= tournament play. In league queue you can play hundreds - thousands of games each season so you can play riskier champs because one lack of payoff isnt going to drop you. In tournaments you cant, as you only get a limited number of games to play. Its not the best team who wins a tournament, its the most consistently good team.

And trash vs meta is a terrible argument. NA, EU, Korea, Vietnam etc all have different metas. NA tanks are strong, Korea bruisers are strong. NA complains about top lane being weak, Korea top lane is the most impactful lane in the game. Meta is just what people are doing in a region, its not game defining as people think it is. There is far less trash than people want to believe.

Sasogwa1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1esQoRZU,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-02-16T13:10:36.715+0000)

Trynd was a good high level counter to jayce

Sorry what? Jayce counters Trynd pretty hard, especially in high level.

Garen is capable of working at higher level

Depends which kind of higher level that is.

Kat is good right now in high level play

Darius has been used in tournaments

That lot is true

The only "non viable" champ you listed was yi, and even he can be used by a yi main.

Yes, but weird way to say that, as Yi is more viable than Garen at high elo. There are a bunch of pretty high elo korean Yis, not so sure about Garen.

Pika Fox1 votes

Trynd generally does really well against jayce in high level. Trynd can heal back most harass with his Q and just R dive him all day. One of the more consistent picks against jayce when jayce is fotm. Trynd just doesnt transition well anywhere else, so he just hardstomps jayce and pressures towers.

Garen is good in high elo for mechanics training. Theres very little garen can do to win through skill checks, so most of it ends up being what you can eek out of W, optimize E ticks and Q, and just basic mechanics (wave control, last hitting, proper trading etc)

Sasogwa1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1esQoRZU,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2018-02-16T14:42:52.699+0000)

Trynd generally does really well against jayce in high level. Trynd can heal back most harass with his Q and just R dive him all day. One of the more consistent picks against jayce when jayce is fotm. Trynd just doesnt transition well anywhere else, so he just hardstomps jayce and pressures towers.

Mmmh no. At high elo, Jayce just has too much damage for Trynd to heal, and his knockback, slow and potentially portal ms boost are more than enough to have Trynd never be able to do anything to him. Diving Jayce is really complicated with his knockback. Obviously a Trynd that managed to get 1 or 2 early kills is going to snowball and potentially do that, but that says nothing of the matchup. Since Jayce is not gonna give you a freekill and you start from that. Watched quite a bunch of boxerpete (chall trynd main) and as far as i remember the jayce matchup is annoying and generally pretty bad. You can win it only because they're over aggressive and make mistakes (similar as Pantheon)

Pika Fox1 votes

Trynd has enough healing to win almost any trade, and if jayce goes into trynd his knockback isnt going to win against trynd's E. Jayce's only choice is staying ranged or dying, which limits jayce pretty hard.

Trynd literally just has to walk up to jayce to win a trade, or just farm, keeping jayce in a losing lane where he cant impact elsewhere.

Jamaree1 votes

{quoted}

Basically champions like Yi, Trynd, Garen, Darius and Kat can't be "good", and i mean good at a high level because they pubstomp too hard at lower elo. Well no matter what state the champions are in, players are going to cry about these champions and other things instead of trying to improve. I mean I agree it's not fun to get rekt by a Garen every game, But at LEAST make them a niche pick in some way or form that isn't as autoloss for high elo/competitive play.

How without making them annoying like you state?

 It takes way too long for LoL to see these changes to even address these issues if Riot wants there to be no "anti-fun" champions. It would also remedy the LCS issue where only 15 champions get play. I know many people and streamers have issue with the live Team balance.

The problem with the system is that the devs try to please everyone rather then just the upper crust, but if they did, people would get pissed. So they try to blanket make everyone happy which doesn't work.

DragonShea1 votes

I say tough shit, I've had to deal with those sucker and know that darius has been nerf'd He is a joke. he doesn't feel scary because people know that he melee only and people that people that play melee champs have to realise that he has weaknesses that are designed to promo smarter play as darius because many people just play those champs for the sake of stomping the lane and if someone that is will to fight them but ain't gonna want to play ball with those fuckers. you can expect of outplays that is gonna piss off those Darius and Trynda mains.

Jinx Hunter1 votes

its the same for XinZhao

FurriesAreHot1 votes

Not every character can be viable in the high tier, never video game with a roster above 10 will ever have every character viable in all tiers. If all Riot did was balance around pro play, every rank under Gold would be flooded with the same character over and over and over and over.

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

Not every character can be viable in the high tier, never video game with a roster above 10 will ever have every character viable in all tiers. If all Riot did was balance around pro play, every rank under Gold would be flooded with the same character over and over and over and over.

The problem is the vast majority of League's roster is not good and many unviable entirely, in high elo. Tournament roster scene is even more questionable.

It's 1 thing to say that perfect balance is not achievable, it's another thing to have a roster THIS unbalanced.

Iasam1 votes

idk why you would even be concerned as a person who hasnt been past plat 5. There are tryndamere one tricks, pantheon one tricks, master yi one tricks, teemo one tricks, and a LOT of kata one tricks in high elo(like d2+).

Right now ipav is in top 50 challenger as teemo main and also playing garen. foggedftw3 is rank 101 tryndamere main. Keegan plays pantheon and has like 5 accounts in challenger every year. And then the famous rank 1,2,3 from last year tf blade who is pretty much akali one trick.

All those champs are pretty basic mechanically and people play them in challenger every year. Nerfs aren't holding them back.

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