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Better Jungler Wins Game - Data Provided to Back Up Claim

Mathgodpi··3 votes·1,827 views

I have lost 8 of my last 10 games (solo queue, gold V). While I'm not here to make excuses, I am here to shine a light on what I feel is a disconcerting trend in the game.

First I'll provide data from my last 10 games, then I'll discuss what the data appears to show.

Game 1 (loss): Enemy jungler: 4.50 KDA, 92 CS, level 12 Our jungler__: 0.71 KDA, 104 CS, level 11

Game 2 (loss): Enemy jungler: 3.40 KDA, 186 CS, level 17 Our jungler__: 1.82 KDA, 136 CS, level 15

Game 3 (loss): Enemy jungler: 5.25 KDA, 183 CS, level 17 Our jungler__: 1.33 KDA, 137 CS, level 15

Game 4 (loss): Enemy jungler: 1.17 KDA, 163 CS, level 14 Our jungler__: 1.86 KDA, 157 CS, level 14

Game 5 (loss): Enemy jungler: 2.63 KDA, 145 CS, level 17 Our jungler__: 1.60 KDA, 140 CS, level 15

Game 6 (loss): Enemy jungler: 2.22 KDA, 137 CS, level 15 Our jungler__: 1.78 KDA, 149 CS, level 14

Game 7 (loss): Enemy jungler: 5.33 KDA, 172 CS, level 15 Our jungler__: 0.75 KDA, 81 CS, level 13

Game 8 (win): Enemy jungler: 1.36 KDA, 235 CS, level 18 Our jungler__: 1.14 KDA, 215 CS, level 18

Game 9 (win): Enemy jungler: 2.00 KDA, 104 CS, level 13 Our jungler__: 5.33 KDA, 160 CS, level 15

Game 10 (loss): Enemy jungler: 5.75 KDA, 138 CS, level 15 Our jungler__: 1.50 KDA, 95 CS, level 12

In the 8 losses, the enemy team had a dramatically better jungler in 6 of them, the junglers were about equal in 1, and we had the better jungler in 1 (though not by much).

In the 2 wins, we had a dramatically better jungler in 1 of them, and the junglers were about equal in the other.

What do these numbers seem to show? They seem to show that the jungle role has a dramatically large impact on the outcomes of games and, perhaps to a large degree, more so than any other role. Intuitively we can see why this should be the case: if one jungler is constantly ganking lanes and burning enemy summs or even picking up kills, while the other jungler is not helping the team in any way (ie: clearing camps incredibly slowly, refusing to gank for anyone, building a tank when our top laner and support are already tanks, walking randomly into enemy jungle and dying, being mechanically poor with his/her champion, etc etc), not only is the better jungler getting ahead, but is also setting up teammates to get ahead as well. This means that once the mid game arrives, one team will have a jungler that is not only more fed but is also more skilled and knowledgeable than the opposing jungler, and several of the teammates of that better jungler will also be much more fed than their opponents. This makes it extremely difficult (often impossible) for the team with the worse jungler to come back and win the game, even with shutdown gold being what it currently is.

The point I'm trying to make here is, "Better Jungler Wins Game" is a notion that holds more water than many people realize. Does Riot want the game to be like this, or are there any plans in the works to address what is happening? In games where I can tell very early on that I've been teamed with a terrible jungler, it is deflating to know from the 5 minute mark that my chances of winning the game are extremely low, no matter how well I play. It gets even more deflating when the enemy jungler is going from lane to lane like hot lightning, picking up kills with ease.

The fix here seems to be relatively simple: 1) never, ever autofill someone into the jungle role, and 2) have the matchmaker set up in such a way that it always tries to place junglers of roughly equal quality on the two teams. These two adjustments would, IMO, immediately and dramatically improve the experience of playing ranked in solo queue.

And yes, I'm aware that the ranked system is about to change, but this hilights the importance of raising concerns now, so that Riot makes the most of the upcoming opportunity to make the new system the best and fairest system it can be.

*** Update *** The above post was rejected from the Gameplay + forums for the following reasons:

> * 10 games is much too small to be a meaningful data set. > * You don't discuss how your idea would affect matchmaking times, especially if extended to other roles.

So I'll address these points now:

  1. 10 games may be a small data set, but I chose this set of data because it's a perfect illustration of how my entire season has gone. I have played 925 games (and counting) this season, and the general sense I have got is that these games have been, disturbingly often, determined by which team had the better jungler. The reason why I didn't tabulate all the jungler data from the 925 games is because I didn't have time to do so (especially considering all the time I have spent on trying to win unwinnable games and winning other games afterward to make up for the LP loss). So no, I don't think anyone would consider 925 games too small a data set to be meaningful; I'm just asking that you believe me when I say that, while I can't gather all the jungler data from my whole season, I can tell you sincerely that I have been paying close attention to my games and keeping track of what I feel were the determining factors in each one of them. Overwhelmingly, the sense I've been getting is that there is quite often a huge discrepancy in the quality of the junglers, and almost every game that has such a huge discrepancy ends up being won by the better jungler.

  2. Matchmaking times would increase substantially of course, but I wouldn't mind that one bit. In my opinion, It is by far better to have a 10-15 minute queue time and play in a game where all your teammates are in the role they wanted, than to only have a 2 minute queue time and end up wasting 30 minutes on a game that is unwinnable due to griefing teammates, and spend another 2+30 minutes winning another game to make up for the loss. If you do the math, it is obvious that autofilling ends up wasting much more of a player's time than long queue times would.

38 Comments

Eedat6 votes

You are actually attempting to use a sample size of 10 games as "proof"? Ten? Try again when you have tens of thousands lol

Mathgodpi2 votes

You didn't read the post did you?

Eedat4 votes

No, I read it. Saw the disclaimer that more or less said "well its only 10 games but trust my arbitrary opinion is fact". Even if you did have a large sample size, it would prove absolutely nothing. Wow, the jungler on the winning team on average performs better. I bet the ADC on the winning team performs better on average than the losing team too. And the Mid. And the top laner. Because they're winning.

Mathgodpi1 votes

See, unlike you, I actually have seen everything that has gone on in each and every game I've been in, and the constant trend throughout the season is that one jungler goes from lane to lane making plays, where the other jungler loafs around and does nothing for his team. When this happens, you can predict the winner of the game almost every single time.

Soc1al Anxiety1 votes

Unlike you we look at match history

Mathgodpi1 votes

Unlike you I understand match history. I understand what has actually happened in each game and why the numbers came out to be what they are.

Eedat2 votes

Ah I see. Your opinion is now fact. Guess you didnt need those 10 games as "proof" after all. Who needs real data when we have people's opinions on the internet?

BestPudgeNA1 votes

{quoted}

See, unlike you, I actually have seen everything that has gone on in each and every game I've been in, and the constant trend throughout the season is that one jungler goes from lane to lane making plays, where the other jungler loafs around and does nothing for his team. When this happens, you can predict the winner of the game almost every single time.

I main jungle. I frequently play in games where i have 100% neutral objective control and 5 times the KP as the opposing jungler at 15mins and play the mid/late game macro much much better while not being worse in teamfights and i frequently lose those games. Generally speaking either Mid or Top hard stomp and control the game with lane pressure and if that doesn't happen we get to the mid game and better ADC wins 90% of the team fights.

Soc1al Anxiety3 votes

[deleted]

Mathgodpi1 votes

Many of my deaths are from when the game is already over and I'm making a bold play to try to get us back into it. It's like when hockey teams pull their goalie in the final minute.

Soc1al Anxiety3 votes

THats not how that works bud

Mathgodpi1 votes

It absolutely is. How else are you supposed to win a game when the entire enemy team is 2 levels up on your team, are extremely fed, are grouping mid and pushing, and your team is jumping into them and feeding relentlessly?

Soc1al Anxiety1 votes

Defiantly not by Feeding them more

Mathgodpi1 votes

My team is jumping in regardless, so is it better to also jump in at the same time and try to make a play hoping the enemy team makes a mistake, or just split push and let them take our nexus?

BestPudgeNA2 votes

The Irony of this post is i looked at your 5 most recent games and 7 of the 10 Junglers were autofilled because nobody actually Qs jungle anymore because it's a garbage role.

Of the 3 actual JG mains you played with one off roles support and has a better WR as support, one off roles ADC and has a better win rate as AD then jungle and the last one tricks Teemo top off role and has a 64% win rate compared to 49% in the jungle LOL

Mathgodpi1 votes

That does seem quite ironic. However, maybe it speaks to the type of teammates I'm getting matched with. People who are usually bad at jungle but pop off in games against me where they gank my bot lane and top lane with ease...

BestPudgeNA1 votes

{quoted}

That does seem quite ironic. However, maybe it speaks to the type of teammates I'm getting matched with. People who are usually bad at jungle but pop off in games against me where they gank my bot lane and top lane with ease...

I mean if popping off is having less KP and low on damage compared to the rest of your team sure

Mathgodpi1 votes

I was replying to your message. You said that one of the jungle mains that popped off against my team (ie: 5+ KDA) had a 49% win rate in the jungle.

Pika Fox2 votes

Usually any champion doing well has an advantage.... so yeah, better jungler would have a higher chance of winning.... same as better anyone.

Better player wins, water is wet, more at 11.

Mathgodpi1 votes

I'm saying that it seems like a discrepancy in the jungle role has a bigger impact than a discrepancy of any other role.

Pika Fox1 votes

Because other roles have a big impact on the jungler. If your lanes are doing poorly, your jungler is doing poorly. You can be playing well all you want, but yoilu have 0 jungle priority and the enemy will be able to respond in your own jungle before your own team can.

If your lanes are evenish, then jungle impact matters and can sway this.

If your laners are doing good and winning, you have advantage over the enemy jungler and priority over objectives.

Mathgodpi1 votes

That's not what has been happening in my games this season. In most games my jungler will provide very few ganks (often none), not know how to gank properly when he does gank, will not ward, will randomly die in enemy jungle, not know how to route properly, not know how to clear properly, do next to nothing in skirmishes/teamfights, in other words be basically afk. Meanwhile the enemy jungler goes from lane to lane picking up kills and stomping my teammates with ease.

Pika Fox1 votes

Stop over extending and ward then. Its not your junglers fault if you die to the enemy jungler.

Mathgodpi1 votes

It's usually not me dying to the enemy jungler it's my teammates dying to the enemy jungler. Meanwhile, my jungler does nothing all game.

Pika Fox1 votes

Still not the junglers fault. Cant really do anything if no one gives you anything to do.

Mathgodpi1 votes

But if the enemy laners are going full ham and pushing into your team's towers, do you refuse to gank, or do you take the opportunity to gank? I usually get junglers who refuse to gank even when there are great opportunites available. Furthermore, the enemy jungler tends to take full advantage of every opportunity and gets very fed very quickly.

Pika Fox1 votes

Why would i bother trying to gank a fed lane when the other fed jungler is there? No, i either gank elsewhere, or farm. Ganking that lane isnt an option.

Mathgodpi1 votes

I'm talking about a lane where the enemy jungler isn't there, but the enemy laners are playing super aggressive and are pushed into our tower. As a jungler, that is a juicy opportunity to gank, but the junglers I've been teamed with tend to never take advantage of these opportunities. By contrast, when my teammates play super aggressive like this, the enemy jungler almost always takes advantage and picks up the easy kill.

Pika Fox2 votes

Still has caveats;

Is the lane suited for a gank? (do we have enough CC to deal with the lane)

Is the enemy fed?

Is there a large wave at tower, meaning the ADC wont respond? (if theres like 10 minions at tower, the ADC shouldnt respond, minions are more important)

Am i even anywhere near the lane currently?

Which tower is it at?

How healthy are the people in lane?

Are ults up?

How healthy am i?

How much gold do i have?

Mathgodpi1 votes

I've analyzed those caveats in each situation. The jungler on my team usually doesn't do what he's supposed to do. The enemy jungler, by contrast, usually gets monster KDAs and CS.

Also, the double-standard here is quite astounding. When I do something less than perfect, I'm told that my losses are all my fault, and no one ever mentions caveats. However, when my teammates play like outright garbage, I'm told about caveats! caveats! caveats! caveats! caveats!!!

Rexxiee2 votes

ITT jungle mains trying to defend their broken role.

JG has been needing real nerfs for years, its too strong, no role should have this much impact on a 5v5 game.

Elite4Runner1 votes

Low ELO / Solo Que matches have a tendency to favor aggressive / early game junglers.

You will actually find that aggressive early game junglers are not as dominant in upper ranks and established team matches.

As someone who plays jungle myself, I do agree with your findings because the jungler who is playing the stronger early game champion is more often able to capitalize on early game mistakes. I wouldn't completely put the weight of this on the other jungler howerver. Laners have a tendency to play more aggressive in lower levels of play. Again, the more aggressive jungler is able to take advantage of this, and is more likely to be successful than a jungler who is more passive and prone to farming.

If you actually watch the pro matches, you will see that these matches usually have way less deaths early on. The more skilled / more organized players are playing more cautiously, in many cases because they either realize that their jungler has a later power spike than the enemy jungler, or because they understand that the enemy jungler is more prone to be aggressive.

It is so difficult to emulate this mentality as a low level jungler, which severely limits the champion pool and playstyle that we are allowed to be play and succeed with.

Mathgodpi1 votes

This is the first thoughtful, reasonable, rational response that someone has left here. I applaud you.

With high elo play so different from low elo play, do you recommend that I only try to climb as a jungler and abandon trying to climb in other roles? Do you feel that Riot won't do anything to address the disproportionate effect that a jungler discrepancy has on the game?

Elite4Runner1 votes

Possibly, but I don't know what Riot really could do about it. I mean, they can't MAKE laners play safer, ward, use proper wave management, ping and respond to pings, collapse on invades, LOOK AT THE MINI MAP ...

Personally, I think Riot should make players establish a rank based on the role they play.

Too many people think they get to claim they are a great player because they grind Top or Feed. They simply don't know any other lanes and they refuse to learn anything else. I think that is also why people hate auto-fill so much.

I actually just made a post about this earlier today. Check it out here

I genuinely believe that so many of the laners that flame their jungler because they aren't getting ganks or their jungler is behind, never actually play jungle. This way, if a laner complains about their jungler and they aren't even placed as a jungler, you can just laugh and ignore them because they obviously don't know what they are talking about.

Beerstein1 votes

The losing team inherently will be behind across the board, it happens when you're losing...go figure.

You could do this with ANY lane and have similar results. Also, 10 is a tiny sample size.

Mathgodpi1 votes

The numbers only tell part of the story. If you actually watched the replays of those 10 games you would notice not only the difference in what the junglers did during those games, you would see the enormous impact their action/inaction had on the course of the game, more so than any other position.

And like I said before, 10 might be a tiny sample size but 1000 is not. The common theme throughout my season is the enemy team having a great jungler and my team having a garbage jungler.

Beerstein1 votes

{quoted}

The numbers only tell part of the story. If you actually watched the replays of those 10 games you would notice not only the difference in what the junglers did during those games, you would see the enormous impact their action/inaction had on the course of the game, more so than any other position.

And like I said before, 10 might be a tiny sample size but 1000 is not. The common theme throughout my season is the enemy team having a great jungler and my team having a garbage jungler.

As a Jungler, I can tell the difference, as can enemy junglers, I've been called garbage, and seen opposing jgs be called garbage when the opposing team lets us freely into eachothers jungles. I've had it both ways where the enemy jungler called out our own teams for talking trash to us. We're scapegoats in a team game that has a lot of players simply ignorant of our roles. I can tell you right now, any mid laner at gold 5 can probably insta win their jungle by messing with the opposing jungle and being heavy on ward control.

People expect their lanes to be ganked but never back up junglers that get ganked. JG is a lane too in regards to ganks. It's a lot more complicated than "my jg is garbage". Now beyond even that comes your lanes, if they make opportunities for you, how they ward etc. Almost all of this comes into account in a more passive manner that you might not see as a laner. When the JG is ignored and seen as a gank bot, and no opportunities are being created, yes they will do poorly. What's more is when in this position it means the OTHER team has a LOT of opportunities. It's pretty much a sliding scale, the easier your team makes it for ganks, the harder it will be for the other.

In short: Lanes have a lot of influence on the JG, and far too many laners aren't aware of it. I'd say top laners are the most aware of it by far as a general rule. The others tend to be totally oblivious.

Edit: Pika Fox pretty much just said the same thing in different words. The short of it is, stop scapegoating the jungler. Instead, try getting an MMR remotely near your lane MMR in the jungle, and you'll likely go up in rating in your lane. Why? Because it's not "the jungler deciding the game."

Also, sometimes a lane is hopeless and constantly begging for help. The reality is at best you slow it, at worst you feed it more. Either way it's going downhill. The proper move is to try to get another lane on par with that lane, but for your side. Junglers also get a bad rap for this. If you get annihilated in lane, sometimes you just gotta suck it up and try to not die instead of go toe to toe with the opponent. This rarely happens though. Usually the laner insists on continuing to go toe to toe while screaming at the JG.

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