Legends of Runeterra problem with deny

ttrop·Jan 30, 2020·7 votes·4,881 views

Deny for a card only with a 3 cost its too powerful, with 3 in deck you can use it very often with high reward. for 3 cost it can deny any spells and the spell it denys still uses its mana cost.

even vengence aka kill a unit a unit version of deny costs 7 mana, while it does basically the same thing it costs 4 more mana then deny.

i think either you have to make it so deny can not stop spells that costs 5 or more or maybe even limit the number to 2 in deck if it will only cost 3 mana, or like vengence it should cost at least 5 or 6 with 0 text change

PS i forgot to say but deny also stops ablities

13 Comments

themachamp2Feb 6, 20206 votes

Deny needs to be a 5 mana card imo. It is one of the major reasons why legit control decks are not playable in the higher ranks. Pressure on the board with deny back up single handedly stops most come back mechanics. I.E. no ruination, Rhassa ability gets countered etc. Too make matters worse....deny and elusive are in the same region.

Love4AllFeb 11, 20205 votes

I love how everyone is mentioning these vague ideas like "answers to deny" or "ways around it" you know how many of those there are? 1. Keeping deny yourself. Literally EVERY deck I encounter in ranked play right now is splash Ionia for this reason. A card that makes the meta one faction because of its sheer playability? Not balance, not at all.

Silly NeekoJan 30, 20202 votes

Except it cant be used on burst spells, it cant be used on quite a few skills..... and some of those 5 cost cards have very similar 2 cost alternatives. So while it may be strong vs some decks, it is weaker vs others.

If you want to see my in depth commentary about it so i am not copy and pasting from one area to another.... check out my previous messages, it isnt too far away from this one.

ttropJan 30, 20204 votes

deny basically coveres almost all of spells it can negate, and you can't counter deny if you used a big mana a 3 mana is too low of a cost for what it can do.

it is the very defenition of low risk high reward

whenever you play aginst ionia you have to change how you play the entire game compare to when you are not playing aginst ionia that is how power deny is

not to mention deny also stops ablities its range is too wide it covers both units and spells

Silly NeekoJan 30, 20201 votes

If deny was removed, people would complain about the 5 cost spells being too strong with no counterplay. There is no end to the complaints when people have no clue what balance actually is tbh.

So pretty much im starting to feel like everyone who even brings up deny is half trolling and the other half is that they are ranting because they lost a game because the enemy was smart enough to hold their card until such time as to have exactly what was needed to kill you. 3/40 is pretty bad odds, not the worst.... just bad. There will be times that it is useless as hell, and times that it will be clutch. Point is, it is either ranting or trolling imo.

ttropJan 31, 20202 votes

literally didn't say remove deny once so don't straw man me

what i said was deny is a high reward low risk and it should come with its own risk to use deny, like increase the mana cost or refund half the mana it denys or cant stop 5 mana or higher spells, atm 3 mana is super cheap and it covers wide range of things

kill a unit costs 7 mana and its eaily stopable with other spells comapring the two 1 is clearly much better then the other

Silly NeekoJan 31, 20201 votes

That wasnt a strawman, that was a hypothetical situation that would occur if too harsh of a nerf was done to deny. The fact that you feel I am personally attacking your comment is nothing more than you wanting a reason to try and dismiss my own.

You also when you replied to my first comment, you avoided almost every point i made.

The kill spell itself is also countered by recall, by summoning the card back again with another card, and is removing a PERMANANT unit. A unit that is doing damage. Hell, my ephemeral deck revolves around spells that summon multiple ephemerals to die for my prankster to do damage. Deny costs 3, my relic costs 2. My ghost riders costs 3. I have more chances to pull the cards I want because there is only 3 denys in a deck. So deny itself could counteract me, but chances are i have ways around it and I am just making them use their mana.

ttropFeb 1, 20202 votes

you made a point with little context then told me to find another comment, and again you are putting words in my mouth i never said you were attacking me saying you are straw maning me does not = to you are attacking me

and you also never addressed my points and you say 3 cards in 40 but problity of drawing goes up everytime you draw a card, to draw at leas 2 deny in a game isn't even low

the math spimly makes the odds of drawing deny in each turn higher and higher.

Silly NeekoFeb 1, 20201 votes

Sigh... this is why whenever someone screams strawman i shake my head and wonder if there will be any sense left to talk to.

I said personally attacking your COMMENT not you. Read the comment. You will be surprised that if you take a deep breath and calm yourself before you read things, you will often make more sense of them.

So let us start off with facts rather than opinions.

Deny is only strong vs SOME decks.... others it feels like deny is a waste of space. If your deck is one that is weak to deny, then figure out some way around it. Its a strategy game not "everything works all the time and everyone is a winner." This is a FACT.

Deny is 3 cost and is able to deny 7 and 9 cost spells, even a 12 cost spell ONLY if they are slow or fast spells, and if you so happen to make use of it on an ability of a unit.... kudos for you because the great majority of abilities of units happen instantly. This is a FACT.

The probability of drawing a deny starts out at 7.5% chance and roughly goes up by .3% every card draw. Not horrible odds, but honestly the chances are against you getting them. If you happen to draw 1 on the first card.... that is 2/39. You are down to 5.1% chance with roughly .14% chance increasing per draw. If you happen to draw 2 in the first 2 cards... that is a roughly .38% chance with (assuming you drew the first deny and that factor does not change and it is only the chance of drawing the second being changed) roughly .105% chance increase with every card drawn. Feel free to do the math and check this FACT.

With these facts... sure, it may feel like it is op and it may seem on paper to be op... but honestly the odds are stacked against you getting them, and with them, you have to use them wisely. If someone does, then it is no different than someone holding onto a mystic shot in order to kill Katarina, who unless they block with her/you challenger her, will never die because every time she attacks she has first strike and will just return to the hand before any damage is done to her. Or a mystic shot to hit an elusive that you might otherwise be unable to touch.... etc. For 2 cost 2 damage Mystic Shot can kill a great number of things.

Love4AllFeb 10, 20203 votes

[{quoted}](name=Silly Neeko,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=19EreAId,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-30T13:33:23.602+0000)

If deny was removed, people would complain about the 5 cost spells being too strong with no counterplay. There is no end to the complaints when people have no clue what balance actually is tbh.

So pretty much im starting to feel like everyone who even brings up deny is half trolling and the other half is that they are ranting because they lost a game because the enemy was smart enough to hold their card until such time as to have exactly what was needed to kill you. 3/40 is pretty bad odds, not the worst.... just bad. There will be times that it is useless as hell, and times that it will be clutch. Point is, it is either ranting or trolling imo.

Ionia player detected

terrhyFeb 11, 20203 votes

[{quoted}](name=Silly Neeko,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=19EreAId,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2020-01-30T13:33:23.602+0000) 3/40 is pretty bad odds, not the worst.... just bad.

Not really, if you run 3 denies in a 40 card deck, the chances that at least 1 will show up just in your opening hand is 33%. After 10 draws that chance increases to 76% Not really bad odds.

SaezioFeb 1, 20201 votes

Well, don't make a play unless you got answers for the deny. You just need to be very careful with your planning. always account for the enemy having a deny up the sleeve vs ionia.

You really need to be extra patient and have outs to it in your deck.

BTW you mention vengeance a lot. I think it's just a meme card.

QwertyiouPFeb 15, 20201 votes

Yeah, Deny is broken. The way you can reserve earlier turns' mana for Deny ammo makes it an incredibly strong card. It's a meta-defining card and if you play Ionia without running Deny you're voluntarily sapping a ton of power from your deck. It's just too versatile against way too many decks. There's not a deck out there that hoards most of its spell power on burst spells...that literally just does not exist.

The argument for % statistics on drawing Deny is also...mind boggling. First, if you have played any other card game before, you realize that those odds are actually INCREDIBLY good. In Hearthstone your deck size was 30, but you were limited to 2 copies of each card. In Magic your deck size is 60 (mostly) and you are limited to 4 copies of each. In Runeterra, more often than not you will find what you are looking for in your initial mulligan or first few draws. Second, you can literally say that about any card. You could run 3 cards that are burst spells "Win the game." and point out the % statistics and yell, "Look at the percentages!!" Point being: just because a card has a low draw percentage doesn't mean the card is not incredibly strong. (This doesn't apply to Deny, but for example you could only have 1 copy of Legendary cards in each deck in Hearthstone. That didn't make some of the OP Legendaries any less OP.) Not to mention--you literally don't want Deny in your early opener. The fact that you may draw Deny later rather than earlier is a good thing.

The state of the game right now is to not run high-cost high-swing cards, unless you want to lose every game vs. Ionia. Vengeance, Ruination, Judgement, etc. all just quake in fear of Deny. (Which is actually kind of funny thematically when you consider Shadow Isles quaking in fear of Ionia...)