Let's be honest, they're about to destroy Talon

Just Fang··17 votes·2,414 views

Alright, Riot seems hellbent on reworking the champs that don't need it, and leaving the broken champs that we all know and hate in the game. As a Talon main, it's said to see that somehow, they decided that Talon's AoE is a problem. The only tool he has in the late game. Anyone who play's him knows that as soon as you get into a teamfight, the entire team turns and nukes you as you jump in. Your AoE seems to be the only way to impact the game after 30 minutes, unless the enemy team is just incompetent. I just don't see why they want to rework Talon to this extent. He was so fun to play as, he had good counters to stop him, and was just so rewarding. Now, they're trying to make him even easier to counter, and just as well, ruining an extremely fun champ. They talk about putting in added time for the enemy to react. It's almost like they don't get it. For assassins, 0.5 to 1.5 seconds can be the absolute difference between life or death. If not that, it just makes them a far less capable assassin. I guarantee we're gonna see a giant wave of "Why pick Talon, when you can pick Zed?" come up in the community. Zed can at least get out of almost any situation with utmost ease. What made Talon comparable? His speed. He doesn't have inherent escapes, unless you blow your ult. Sure, you could use your E, but that required actually piggybacking off an enemy. There was risk to using it as an escape. But now... I feel like with the way this game has been going, and how horrid Riot's decisions seem to be getting, he's going to become a Lee Sin. A jungler that builds AD and health, and just becomes a harassing hybrid that doesn't do much. I doubt he'd see the power Lee Sin can have, but... they're going to just be alienating his dedicated fanbase with this. And at least they would NEVER do that with Lee.

77 Comments

AMYS GRAVE17 votes

For assassins, 0.5 to 1.5 seconds can be the absolute difference between life or death.

And the same can be said for their victims. If assassins as a class are given room for counterplay then they can be made more engaging overall. Allowing a class of champions to kill enemies before they are allowed to react at all isn't a sustainable model for the health of a pvp game.

MunchCrunchLunch4 votes

{quoted}

And the same can be said for their victims. If assassins as a class are given room for counterplay then they can be made more engaging overall. Allowing a class of champions to kill enemies before they are allowed to react at all isn't a sustainable model for the health of a pvp game.

wait but how is it fun for ranged ad carries to be peel for and be able to kill tanks mages assassins melee carries and bruisers alike with no counterplay because you cant dodge right clicking and they have range. there is a fucking reason assassins aren't always picked and the adc role is mandatory.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Assuming your assassin can't be peeled for? Tanks, mages, supports, etc... surely can't use their CC to ensure the assassin gets in and out safely. You have to do that shit alone, assassins can't be expected to rely on their team at all.... /s

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Assuming your assassin can't be peeled for? Tanks, mages, supports, etc... surely can't use their CC to ensure the assassin gets in and out safely. You have to do that shit alone, assassins can't be expected to rely on their team at all.... /s

Wait what.

Are you seriously telling us to have a team built around peeling FOR an assassin?

You're an assassin, you get in, risk your life, try to burst a squishy, and attempt an escape. Assassin's being easy as hell to peel means 0.1 seconds alone will mean they can't do shit. The longer that period of burst is, the less dps they have. At the moment they barely have any more than adcs, yet we should make them have even less?

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Are you seriously telling us to have a team built around peeling FOR an assassin?

Where do you get this shit? You dont build a team comp to peel for an assassin, but that doesn't mean that your tank locking down their mage (which is what was going to happen anyway) doesn't serve as a tool to help the assassin get in and out of a fight alive. People act like adcs are the only ones who can possibly benefit from their teams cc.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Where do you get this shit? You dont build a team comp to peel for an assassin, but that doesn't mean that your tank locking down their mage (which is what was going to happen anyway) doesn't serve as a tool to help the assassin get in and out of a fight alive. People act like adcs are the only ones who can possibly benefit from their teams cc.

More often than not, the backline are the ones that benefit most from cc. The frontline can benefit from the teams cc. More often than not, an assassin is away from their team— most likely stalking or in the enemy team's backline.

Shaydrox9 votes

As a Talon main since season 2, I feel your fear, but at the same time I can't help but keep thinking positively. His current laning phase is absolutely horrendous and his teamfighting is binary. If he gets more opportunities to poke enemies, or to jump away from threats without just getting caught and dying more easily than any other assassin, I think it will make up for it. Also keep in mind, as he gets more counterplay he'll also be given more power and the enemy will have a more fun experience as well.

Besides, he's finally getting an actual passive, can't be unhappy about that lol

The Last Ballad8 votes

I just don't see why they want to rework Talon to this extent.

Maybe because he is either a complete joke or "I got in range of his e I should flash awa--- Nope, I'm dead" and little to no in between(at least not that I have seen)? Or the fact that his whole combo can happen within the time it takes him to blink to you and activate his ult?

they talk about putting in added time for the enemy to react. It's almost like they don't get it. For assassins, 0.5 to 1.5 seconds can be the absolute difference between life or death.

Did you forget that there are 5 people you are playing against? That extra second may ruin some of your kills, but it allows others to play. As a support against Talon, I don't even have time to hover my mouse over him to exhaust him before he kills my carry. That extra time may not be much, but it allows me to react to the Talon and attempt to do SOMETHING to save them. Which is sorely lacking now. Even Zed and Leblanc, two of the more frustrating champs, I can react to their actions and save the carries(and I had both of them in the same game no less).

All in all, I find it absolutely stupid that you are complaining about something that hasn't even happened yet. Seriously, don't count the rotten eggs before they are laid. If the rework turns out to be not to your liking, that's when you complain. Not when they are only discussing a champ that needs to be reworked, for the sake of fairness to those playing against him, and to give him more dynamic options when he goes on a killing spree.

Michael Sykes5 votes

As it seems, Riot is going to give every assassin a safe escape. Means, Talons burst window is slightly longer, but he can put himself into safety. He is going to be "situationally one of the most mobile champs in the game" - whatever that means

Lady Hammerlock5 votes

But how can Lee Sin even see his own power?kappa

but in all seriousness,some reasons they're reworking him are likely 1.the concept of 1 shot from stealth which we have very much learned from everyones favourite Rengar that nobody likes that 2.Arguably one of the most boring passives in the game 3.One of the most reliable burst combo's for an AD assassin

My personal problem with talon? Eventually Talon reaches this point of the game where he has the "just right" amount of burst to kill a squishy,so basically if said squishy bought even 1 HP/Armor item his combo seems pretty screwed

Penns3 votes

I dont main Talon but when I read the stuff about his rework I thought its gonna be pretty cool.. Its not like theyre just gonna nerf his aoe and make his burst weaker.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Rake and ult damage reduced by half. Q's duration lowered by half, damage increased twice.

This is how it's going to look like, I bet.

Shaydrox2 votes

Actually I think they'll change his Q completely, it's such a meh ability compared to the rest. Rake will probably become thinner to make it easier to dodge, and perhaps it'll get more range or a lower cd (or both).

Bhagswag1 votes

His Q is my favorite ability. An assassin should be able to REALLY hit someone with his dagger, you know?

Meh, I'm just a fan of auto resetting things like Leona and Shyvana. I just can't play Riven. Lol.

Arakadia1 votes

They dont like it because its boring and doesn't fulfill his thematic so well.

SlashStriker3 votes

You are missing the major point

{quoted}

Talon will be situationally one of the most mobile champs in the game

I am not talon main but i am exited about that

I also assume that you are disappointed that you wont 1shot enemies in 0.1 second. Do you wish to see Rengar 1shot you in 0.1 seconds?

Slack King2 votes

Talons is almost destroyed as is, I mean he isnt bad if certain things happen. But other than that, he is pretty meh

Just Fang1 votes

I mean, I steamroll my lane with him no problem. He clicks with me on a whole new level.

Slack King1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Just Fang,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=17Y4Ewbl,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-08-06T06:54:20.070+0000)

I mean, I steamroll my lane with him no problem. He clicks with me on a whole new level.

I agree, same with me and Morde.

Sona x Rubick2 votes

they want an assassin to not have aoe damage

and they want assassins to be different, kek.

Vistha Kai2 votes

Called it in Stashu's thread - got downvoted.

They want to make (AD?) assassins unique by focusing their kits around single target damage abilities. Perfectly logical.

I wonder, if they actually know what "unique" means.

Sona x Rubick2 votes

this is actually talon's niche, not "roaming because he builds mobility boot", the other assassins who brings aoe damage is katarina but it's channeled and conditionnal. Talon is the only assassin who brings aoe damage and it's not "quadra kill just with ultying" i wonder how he didn't get downvoted by saying this. Talon's aoe damages are decent, but not broken and were NEVER broken. like he was saying that a tank would get killed by talon while talon was killing the adc this is so bullshit.

BloodyTompon2 votes

Talon is the only assassin who brings aoe damage

If you go by number of AoE abilities, he's not.

Ahri - 3 AoE (don't know if she's still an assassin though) Kass - 2 AoE. Zed - 2 AoE. Fizz. -2 AoE. Shaco- _kinda _2 (box and ult) Eve -2 AoE. LB can have 2 AoE (mimic distortion)

I agree the "quadra kill just with ultying" did come off hyperbolic though.

Sona x Rubick1 votes

ahri has one aoe, her Q is the only reliable spell that deals aoe damage zed's aoe are so short, you need the team to be in the same place to do damage with Q, and you won't flash in the team to do damage to everone fizz indead has good aoe, because his ulti has 1 ap ratio, and his e 0.7 ap ratio, but it's harder to place like talon leblanc's aoe are just like zed, you need the team to be really not isolated

talon is the only assassin who can deal decent aoe damage without the enemy team to be so closed. the only exception is katarina since her ulti deals so much damage.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Of all of those champions only Zed is an AD assassins. Even so, as mentioned before his AoE is either melee-ranged(E) or a narrow line skillshot, which deals decreased damage for hitting multiple targets.

I don't count Shaco, because box's AoE is only the fear part and the damage is single target. His ult only deals damage, if built AP, which Shaco doesn't do outside of ARAM.

Now let's look at other champions.

Ahri isn't a full-fledged assassin anymore. She can't "assassinate" anybody unless extremely fed and at that point pretty much every mage could be called an "assassin". Not to mention she only has 1 AoE.

Kassadin does have two AoE spells, but his ult doesn't really deal damage.

Fizz is bullshit.

Evelynn hasn't been an assassin for about 2 years.

LeBlanc technically has two AoEs.

Talon is quite heavily focused on AoE, an UNIQUE trait among AD assassins, which also makes up for his late game. He's an AD assassin, that doesn't utterly crap your teamcomp, because you didn't pick an AoE mage.

And they want to de-incentivise (is this even a word?) his uniqueness for the sake of making him focused on single-target damage.

This goes great lengths showing that Riot and/or Stashu don't fucking play this game or Talon at the very least.

Vistha Kai2 votes

i wonder how he didn't get downvoted by saying this.

White knights got there before me.

Lovelle1 votes

Maybe not now, but this was the case back when AD casters rushed Brutalizer into Last Whisper. Riven was also a huge offender.

Bhagswag1 votes

Maybe something like Shaco? He has no real wave clear in abilites. You don't use his ult to clear waves... lol, but you can!

Hydra solves that problem for him really well. I hope Talon fits well with Hydra because I love that item.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Yes, and look how great Shaco is.

You must get fed early to be of any use for the team and even then Shaco's a splitpusher forced to buy Hydra.

Bhagswag1 votes

Disagreed. I do fine with or without being fed. Just have to know when to do what, and when to use your Q and when to just run at them.

Vistha Kai1 votes

and when to just run at them.

Run at them? Excuse me, but whe- When was the last time you played Shaco and in which ELO people were so stupid, to allow you to "just run at them"?

Bhagswag1 votes

Ever watched Shaclone play?

He sometimes just walks out the bush to gank instead of always using Q first. It's a strategic play because if they are pushed up, and they see you, they KNOW you still have a gap closer while they most likely only have a flash they can use.

Lo and behold, support either has to CC (which you can dodge with the Q) or they have to blow a summoner spell. Once they know you keep using this tactic, they will be scared of your clone too since it also just walks at people, and they won't know who is who.

I don't understand why that implies a low elo.

Vistha Kai1 votes

It's implied you don't start a gank with a gapcloser, if you don't have to.

Still, it's quite easy to tell the clone apart. Click on him and check his armor and magic resistance. If he has no items with those stats, he won't have any except for his base, because Shaco's clone doesn't carry over runes and masteries.

Bhagswag1 votes

That was the point. Shaco can really use that gapcloser thing to his advantage.

I didn't know about the Clone resistances.

ForgiveColour2 votes

Lol yeah like how they destroyed viktor and vlad XD. Gameplay thread lul

Marshbouy2 votes

Or you could just not be incredibly pessimistic about everything.

BloodyTompon1 votes

I was going to try that, but I know I'll fail.

Vistha Kai2 votes

That's not pessimism. That's realism.

The very post made by Stashu, who's handling the rework, shows he has no clue what Talon is and how you play him. You expect us to be possitive about a guy doing a job he has no idea about?

You're so naive.

Marshbouy1 votes

It's pessimism. Just from reading what you said i can already tell that you think you know everything about your champion and how to balance a game.

Vistha Kai2 votes

Just from reading what you said, I can already tell, you know nothing. Where exactly did I appear as if I knew everything about the game?

That's it.

Nowhere.

What I do know, is that this Rioter in question, got the privilege to rework a champion, did so completely ignoring everybody's opinions, then said "Fuck it" and not appeared for over half a year, at which point he came back in, said "Gonna fix it", broke it even more and disappeared again. It wasn't until MYMU, when SOMEBODY ELSE had to step up to make up Stashu's failures.

And you are telling me, it's pessimism to assume a person with such attitude, isn't suited to rework another champion? Tsk.

Kasyrgan1 votes

I'm not so sure. There were high level players saying that the new Vladimir's kit looked clunky and awkward to use, but lo and behold, Vlad was pretty damn broken. Champions like talon and vlad will get a part(s) of their kit changed but I highly doubt his core design element of an ad caster with tons of burst will change. His aoe will take a hit and maybe even his stealth but there might still be hope for a broken ass Talon.

Vistha Kai2 votes

Except they were right, you dunce.

Vlad started with like 40% winrate after the rework and then got 2 or 3 straight damage buffs.

Larry1 votes

there is no counterplay for the person you want to target. His blink with silence has no counterplay apart from some crappy positioning which can be easily overcome when he flashes unexpectedly. Sure all champions flashing in your face can surprise you, but they can miss the spell. Talon on the other hand, cannot. And you being silenced means that you can do nothing to counter him. He absolutely destroys you in 1,5 seconds but in the meantime you are silenced and you cannot escape

Stalinium2 votes

He has not had the silence for a very, very long time now...

Larry1 votes

hehe i had a long break from league and now i dont play midlane :P sorry

Arakadia1 votes

he had good counters to stop him,

I don't see Talon enough to know these counters. Riot apparently doesn't see enough either. He's too reliable from my understanding.

The Deckowner1 votes

not nearly as reliable as some stupid champion name leblanc.

Bronzoid1 votes

Rework Talon but leave Rengar in his current state. Idiots on the design team.

DragonbladeTalon1 votes

Im Playing only Talon for 3 years ,this rework will destroy talon,Everyone will play talon,and i can say goodbye to talon,he was only good champ in this game for me so ill stop playing this game,ty for this riot and goodbye

agbudar1 votes

he escapes now if you set yourself up with his new fancy parkour ability

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