(mainly because I cheese with Soraka and Blitz :P) Will anyone give me some tips?.. Especially when you get laners that decide to keep fighting their laner while they're 0/8?
Im trash, help me!
Kilanost1 votesSince the jungle nerfs/changes this season, there is very, very little you can do. You scale in XP with bot lane but get less gold so that puts your power level somewhere around that of a support in a role that people expect to be able to save them from their solo lane woes.
The jungle has been fucked for a while now. Its basically a second support role as it stand. S6 Rank 1 jungler Tarzaned and current pro jungler for Echo Fox Akaadian also expressed their concern over the weakness of the jungle role in a 17 minute discussion between the two of them that is worth watching.
Dasdi961 votesSince the jungle nerfs/changes this season, there is very, very little you can do. You scale in XP with bot lane but get less gold so that puts your power level somewhere around that of a support in a role that people expect to be able to save them from their solo lane woes.
The jungle has been fucked for a while now. Its basically a second support role as it stand. S6 Rank 1 jungler Tarzaned and current pro jungler for Echo Fox Akaadian also expressed their concern over the weakness of the jungle role in a 17 minute discussion between the two of them that is worth watching.
What? The jungle role has been overpowered for the past 1.5 seasons. Now it is finally in line with other lanes.
Kilanost1 votesYou realize you're not arguing with me here but arguing with challenger and pro level players on the topic right? The role is in the trash can. Want to know why Ivern is so strong? Because jungle scales in xp and gold with supports so its only natural that a support jungler like Ivern be doing so damn well building cheap support items and doing support things.
What i hear you saying when you say that its in line with other lanes is that you play one of the other lanes and junglers have much less of an effect on your game play. Well lets think about that. when a jungler ganks that sa 2v1 or a 3v2. That should a big deal. It should feel like you are at a significantly lower power level because its a mismatch where there are more players against less players.
Also junglers spend 1000 gold on an item that does little more for them than let them clear the jungle and, with the exception of cinderhulk, builds into a shitty version of a most top tier items it can be compared to. So they are even weaker compared to other lanes from that.
If a jungler does nothing but farm his lane using the practice tool so you can literally teleport to clear camps the second they spawn, and a solo laner stays in lane during that same time, the solo laner will reach level 7 when the jungler is still level 5. In line with the other lanes you say? Horse shit.
Dasdi961 votesYou realize you're not arguing with me here but arguing with challenger and pro level players on the topic right? The role is in the trash can. Want to know why Ivern is so strong? Because jungle scales in xp and gold with supports so its only natural that a support jungler like Ivern be doing so damn well building cheap support items and doing support things.
What i hear you saying when you say that its in line with other lanes is that you play one of the other lanes and junglers have much less of an effect on your game play. Well lets think about that. when a jungler ganks that sa 2v1 or a 3v2. That should a big deal. It should feel like you are at a significantly lower power level because its a mismatch where there are more players against less players.
Also junglers spend 1000 gold on an item that does little more for them than let them clear the jungle and, with the exception of cinderhulk, builds into a shitty version of a most top tier items it can be compared to. So they are even weaker compared to other lanes from that.
If a jungler does nothing but farm his lane using the practice tool so you can literally teleport to clear camps the second they spawn, and a solo laner stays in lane during that same time, the solo laner will reach level 7 when the jungler is still level 5. In line with the other lanes you say? Horse shit.
Remember last season where graves would afk farm and then walk out of the jungle 1 level higher than the solo mid or solo top who has perfect farm?
Kilanost1 votesThis is another misconception and here's why:
solo laners get forced out of lane occasionally and when they do they lose xp. This never happened in solo lanes with perfect farm past level 5.
The exact same thing can be done to junglers. In fact, last season junglers tended to barely keep even with solo lanes because it was also on them to gank, ward, counter jungle (sometimes walking into a jungle with no champs up). Generally speaking, jungle farm xp should be scaled a little high to account for things like that. If the game goes 10 minutes and you haven't seen the enemy jungler, you should have started warding and invading. If junglers can leave their jungle farm to gank for lanes, lanes should occasionally leave their cs to help invade enemy the enemy jungle. This rarely ever happened. This also doesn't address the fact that AFK farming creates an advantage for the team that does get ganks and lane pressure. AFK farming should be a viable option for the jungle, especially when its forced on you by winning lanes or lanes that have become ungankable because they're too fed. The jungler afk farming on a shit team was the last shred of hope a losing team generally had last season. Now there's nothing the junglers can do if the ganks are there except try to force them and often feed in the process.
Aptest2 voteshave not watched the video.
however I argue that support junglers and tank junglers should be viable and that only really happens in a low gold environment for the jungle.
It is my understanding that jungler players heavily prefer playing carries, assassins and 'divers'. but allowing the jungler player to completely ignore the tanks and utility champions basically shirks the responsibility into toplane or support.
i.e. its a case of one role hogging all the fun at the expense of the other roles.
will watch video later it probably talks about other things. this is just a placeholder post.
Kilanost1 votesLiterally the only champions I played in the S6 jungle are tanks and I can tell you that they did just fine with high gold jungle environments.
If you disagree, think about how much reksai got played in S6 by pros building full tank. Now I can't recall a game where reksai was played. Gragas only came out of the woodwork this season because he has a good aoe clear compared to other junglers. Olaf was another jungler who was generally built full tank last season that got significantly less play this season. Hell last season Nunu was even doing well as a support jungler.
All these changes have accomplished is make heavy ganking junglers significantly stronger than any other jungler because non-stop ganking is the only way to keep up (mostly because you tax the lane afterwards for xp/gold). In fact, taxing is half the reason you see most junglers even showing up to lane. Think about how many shitty ganks you get and ask yourself "why is this guy actually here?"
Aptest1 votesOk now that I have watched the video i can make some more reasonable reply.
The problems brought up are:
here are my thoughts:
if the overall influence of support is really low compared to top lane or mid lane, than the jungler having comparable influence is a problem and both roles need a big agency boost. however if support is simply the guy with the least influence and not really super far behind other roles, the jungler being comparable in terms of influence is not necessarily a bad thing. Someone has to come last and if it's actually a close fight on who has more influence that is a better situation.
if that situation is that bot is determining the game and sup / jungle/ top are basically supporting cast (i mean in the sense that they are second fiddles, not that they are meant to be the AD's bitch), than the situation is not good. but if AD is best role but by a small margin and jungle is trailing by a small amount that is ok.
honestly i think the situation is that jungler has a lot of power. much more than other roles. but i think in high elo that may be different as prudent play is much more successful.
as a caveat, league has 5 players per team so every player theoretically has 20% influence. however this is very little for feeling that you are in control because 20% influence means you are mostly not in control. To feel in control you need 40% or more. But then the role is grossly over-powered.
when someone said "I think my role is in a good spot" i think they are feeling in control. So they must have 35-50% influence on the game. I.E. they are very much over the top in terms of how much power they have compared to other players.
I really can't comment on that. When I try to play Naut jungle i can't keep up in farm with any damage oriented jungle. My gut feeling is that fast farming is extremely important to such an extent that good ganks cant compensate for that.
but obviously the "why not both" approach is dominating in high elo according to the video. But i think this is more a feature of the several champions that are able to both farm and gank and not have trade offs in one of those aspects being overtuned "compared to other jungler picks" (i mean not that lee is globally too strong but that he is too strong as a jungler compared to nautilus).
Personally i like Ivern and nunu being good if only to spite "carry jungler" players in my elo range. If only damage oriented champions are viable than all games look the same way. A conceptually different jungler makes for a conceptually different game. Ofcourse this is bad for the people who want to spam "IKillU2007" champions 24/7. but then i guess these guys will spam "tank sup" and "tank top" in chat a lot so i like the idea that they have to give some responsibility here.
That being said I don't consider Reksai and Olaf and Vi to be tanks. They just build tanky.
I agree.
If jungler has comparable power to lane, than jungler comes to lane, regardless of how lane is doing opposing lane will be missing some mana some health, jungler comes in with lots of health at least half mana because of jungle sustain, can just fuck up the lane solo. not good situation.
so jungler actually always have to be weaker than lane. not just small weaker but also to compensate lane for jungler being able to base at any time and pickup lots of small items.
COLDSNOWKILLER1 votes
Get really good with Nunu and solo dragons.
