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Why is Fizz Still Perpetually Ghosted?

CelticKaiser··72 votes·5,059 views
Patch 5.24 notes

Back in Patch 5.24, Hecarim lost his permanent no unit collision.

"Hecarim’s engagement pattern is consistently oppressive."

"... and forcing him to play the same unit collision game as everyone else. No more free hits just because your opponent’s struggling through a blockade of enemy minions, buddy."

So are you telling me Fizz's engagement pattern is not consistently oppressive or that he wasn't included in everyone else when it comes to the unit collision game?

I've been playing Hecarim since Season 2, the first champion I truly enjoyed playing in this game and still one of my favorites. I understand updates to champions happen and they may not remain the same forever (e.g. Taric), but it doesn't make sense when an ability is taken away from a champion like that and is left on another. Especially when the justification used to remove it from the champion can be applied to that other champion as well. I've gotten used to Hecarim no longer having permanent no unit collision (I HATE IT), but my issue is the fact that Fizz still has permanent no unit collision and i believe it should be removed as well. I do miss permanent no unit collision on Hecarim and would love for him to get it back, but I'll play the no unit collision game without it. Hecarim summoner 6 Fizz should consider doing that as well, but since he is still perpetually ghosted, why would he? Fizz summoner 4

43 Comments

Abyssphere32 votes

They spoke about the Hecarim removal in more depth on the boards, and talked about how it wasn't very fair or skill-intensive for a champion whose damage largely revolved around standing beside someone to be ghosted all the time. They didn't like Hecarim being able to wander into a group of minions and spam Q with W on, maybe auto attack if he wanted, then easily retreat through the wave while the enemy had to try and move around the minions blocking their way. It was a really cheap way to win trades in a lane primarily filled with melees. If Hecarim is to be allowed to be a top laner then he can't really be ghosted all the time, and his sole way to win trades should probably be something more exciting than "can move around the wave easier than the enemy".

Fizz lives in a primarily ranged lane where few champions he faces struggle with moving around the minion wave. He doesn't have an inherent advantage over most mid laners from his passive because of this - it just means that both sides of the matchup ignore the presence of minions when trading. Unlike Hecarim vs melee top laners, Fizz can't just stand in the middle of the minion wave damaging you without response because his kit requires him to actually get on top of the target to do stuff, too.

I mean I wouldn't complain if they got rid of Fizz's unit collision but it has much less unhealthy gameplay surrounding it than Hec's did.

DorkunedAuras3 votes

You're gonna get downvoted to hell, but you're totally right. I was gonna say this if you didn't.

Retnus5 votes

{quoted}

They spoke about the Hecarim removal in more depth on the boards, and talked about how it wasn't very fair or skill-intensive for a champion whose damage largely revolved around standing beside someone to be ghosted all the time. They didn't like Hecarim being able to wander into a group of minions and spam Q with W on, maybe auto attack if he wanted, then easily retreat through the wave while the enemy had to try and move around the minions blocking their way. It was a really cheap way to win trades in a lane primarily filled with melees. If Hecarim is to be allowed to be a top laner then he can't really be ghosted all the time, and his sole way to win trades should probably be something more exciting than "can move around the wave easier than the enemy".

Fizz lives in a primarily ranged lane where few champions he faces struggle with moving around the minion wave. He doesn't have an inherent advantage over most mid laners from his passive because of this - it just means that both sides of the matchup ignore the presence of minions when trading. Unlike Hecarim vs melee top laners, Fizz can't just stand in the middle of the minion wave damaging you without response because his kit requires him to actually get on top of the target to do stuff, too.

I mean I wouldn't complain if they got rid of Fizz's unit collision but it has much less unhealthy gameplay surrounding it than Hec's did.

I honestly don't hate his lack of unit collision being a thing. He's meant to be slippery and hard to catch, so it at least makes sense thematically. In fact, he should probably keep it...under one condition. If he's going to have his infuriating E mechanics in play for trades, tie his damage to his other abilities in some fashion. I get the whole "he spends a ton of mana with Playful/Trickster" deal, but why does it hit so hard, with such high bases and low cooldown? He utilizes mana in either his more common AP build with Lich Bane, or the less popular Bruiser build IBG/Triforce...so he can deal with mana costs. He already has another mobility ability to utilize in his Q. Let him sneak around(through them technically XD)minion waves, but make him actually think about how he's going to burst someone down.

He's an assassin, he should kill you fast, and sneak away like his class archetype is meant to. That's why I like Talon as a character. He hurts in a short window of time, but commits to his trades at a risk to his life. Fizz? He laughs at your CC's and even your towers...on a very short cooldown for such a potent ability. He dodges ULTIMATES with ease. You could say Yasuo has windwall as a comparable ability to block specific ultimates, but even at max rank, which he'll rank up last in almost any circumstance mind you, it has an 18 second cooldown. Yasuo won't be utilizing any CDR items either in just about any build. Fizz on the other hand will have CDR often above 20%, even some players going into the 45% cdr mastery. What's the cooldown on his ability WITHOUT cooldown reduction? 8 seconds. 8.

Here lies the problem. The large majority hates him almost as much as Teemo. Well, people hate Yasuo too, but for different reasons. Good luck finding impartial reasoning to making fighting said champs more "fair" for their opponents. If you make it where his E doesn't turn him untargetable, he'd get overpunished by every person he'd lane against for no compensation. I do think they need to do something about him, and honestly some other tweaks to other champions, but that's a different discussion altogether. Is he overpowered? Hardly. Frustrating? Beyond infuriating. Probably on the top of my list of champs I hate facing. Not to mention the playerbase of Fizz typically consists of laugh spammers and typical jerks. Pretty standard fare for characters with mechanics that are made to irritate their opposition though.

Dominick Destine5 votes

{quoted}

Fizz doesn't have an inherent advantage over most mid laners

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

yay nibbers1 votes

A melee AP assassin with no ranged poke, obviously he has an advantage over the likes of Ahri, Anivia, Lux, Zed, Talon, Ekko, Diana, Syndra, Brand, Akali, Katarina, Ezreal, Galio, Ryze, Ziggs, Zilean, Zyra, Xerath, Viktor, Vladimir, etc who all have can poke him from range and avoid most of his damage. Definitely.

Xenomancers1 votes

fizz is the only one avoiding damage...untargetability son...

8g1DZOpu8f2 votes

With a mana cost of 1/3 early levels that drastically increases as you level it with a huge 16 second CD without any CDR i think its totally reasonable and fair gameplay, i'm tired of people complaining about fizz and his untargetability, as stated above a melee ap assassin struggles in lane if he is getting poked down by ranged harass. when laning against him harass him enough and he WON'T ENGAGE on you because if the fizz does he is dead (early levels that is) learn to play against his untargetability and then you can stop complaining. His e is very powerful use a dash or flash to dodge it followed by a cc or similar ability and he has no way to avoid the damage. Between his level 6-9 he has about 15%-20% CDR his ult and his E with a couple levels in it he hits his power spike at this point DO NOT try and fight him alone, bait him into a fight or a gank by your team and h is screwed.

Pasta Help Desk2 votes

So if Fizz was a top laner then the nerf would be justified? Maybe I missed your point and focused on what I wanted but that is all I got from this horrid long post.

Sugar Momma26 votes

Fizz goes mid, and faces far more ranged champions. I haven't played him much admittedly, but I do remember it can be very hard to trade with most champions pre-6 and come out on top. If you had to struggle through the minion wave, you'd almost surely lose every trade.

Remlap122316 votes

Nobody should be able to struggle with their own minion waves.

Its more bullshit on Fizz because he has two dashes to mitigate that.

So why does Fizz get to frolic through minion waves, but zero mobility Ashe will get completely rekt if she gets creep blocked?

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

Because, at least, Ashe should be behind her minion wave since she's very long-ranged and can farm reliably from that far away. Fizz has to be in front to be able to farm; you can't tell me that he's just going to be able to dash around everywhere for farm at an early spot where his Q and E have 10 second CDs. Without his unit collision cancel, he gets put at an enormous disadvantage because he both has to walk around creeps to even get CS and still struggle with being melee in a lane fully based around people with range (even Zed and Talon and Kat have something to get long-ranged CS/poke with).

Remlap12234 votes

You're missing the point. If LoL implemented the creep block system summoner 11 has, it would not affect Fizz in the slightest, since he has two dashes and can easily use his Q to quickly get away from enemies if his E is on cooldown, and he wouldn't have to worry about creep block with his own minions, because he'd gain collision ignore.

The game would be much healthier for all champions involved if the system was just done away with. If Fizz is getting rekt after a change like this, you buff his early game defense. It's as simple as that.

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

The problem with completely removing creep block is that minion blocking can become a thing. I don't like it, but that's how it is.

And I don't know if you understand how Fizz Q works.

Remlap12231 votes

You're not actually reading anything I'm writing are you?

Only your friendly minions won't block you. Your enemy minions are still things you have to watch out for. If you could actually realistically control creep waves like you can in DOTA, then by all means include creep block on your own minions. But I have yet to see that in League.

And yes, I do know how Fizz's Q works. If you don't know to Q minions towards your tower to make a hasty retreat, I hope I don't get stuck with you in my game playing as Fizz, Poppy, or Yasuo.

commit an hero1 votes

{quoted}

You're not actually reading anything I'm writing are you?

Only your friendly minions won't block you. Your enemy minions are still things you have to watch out for. If you could actually realistically control creep waves like you can in DOTA, then by all means include creep block on your own minions. But I have yet to see that in League.

And yes, I do know how Fizz's Q works. If you don't know to Q minions towards your tower to make a hasty retreat, I hope I don't get stuck with you in my game playing as Fizz, Poppy, or Yasuo.

You mean the game REN vs TSM where Freeze intentionally screwed the minion wave so his wave would push and he would get level 2 first.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

Creep block is a realistic thing in League, actually. It's only for Level 1, and could be patched soon, but it happens and gives a reliable early lead to a side lane.

You would have to be incredibly far forward (after an all-in or when bullying very hard) for Fizz Q to be useful. Anytime else, it'll just put you back where you would have been without going closer in the first place. What is he dashing to for an escape if he's in or near his own minions?

Z Statistic14 votes

Fizz got kneecapped by a wrench last season or so. He's a ghost of his former self, so it makes sense.

The Yetii Rider12 votes

Fizz and Kassadin are balanced around mid lane. They don't have a good ranged CS game like Zed, nor easy pre 6 movement like Katarina, nor stealth like Talon.

Moving through minions is just necessary to be decent in such a short lane against ranged champs who draw no aggro from their ability based harass.

Heckin Support4 votes

{quoted}

nor easy pre 6 movement

What?

OyddAWqJ5r4 votes

Confirmed, Katarina/Talon more mobile than Fizz pre-6 xD

SkyBlade791 votes

Fizz has two dashes, a move that makes him invincible and untargetable, and takes less damage from basic attacks?

Very Epic Guy5 votes

Personally, I don't think he should be able to. He's already got a decent amount of mobility tied to lower-cd abilities.

Steelflame5 votes

In lane those are not low CD abilities though. Q has a starting 10 second CD, and E has a starting 16 second base CD. At this point in time, he NEEDS that passive to get through the wave. By lategame, his ghosted mechanic barely contributes to anything, he is almost entirely focused on his Q and E mobility by then.

The Voids Call5 votes

If fizz wasn't such an obnoxious champion to play or play against, then i'd play him for this reason alone. He is the only champion (that i can think of) which can completely ignore this clunky outdated mechanic

Abyssphere5 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Voids Call,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0HXWYrmr,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-02-07T23:59:15.659+0000)

If fizz wasn't such an obnoxious champion to play or play against, then i'd play him for this reason alone. He is the only champion (that i can think of) which can completely ignore this clunky outdated mechanic

Kassadin too.

LithiumWednesday4 votes

something something melee assassin something Although I understand that the idea is that Fizz needs to be able to move around minion waves to fight his opponent, I feel like it's slightly unfair considering how he's slippery and sticky compared to other champs Akali Talon Rengar

meanwhile people taking ADCs top

da glorious2 votes

Also, outside of the unit collision, fizz's passive is way worse than hecarim's, and they don't want to give him a decent passive so they just give him that as compensation

FantasySniper2 votes

Because not only does he have to be slippery, he has to be capable of walking up to you and 360 no-scoping a troll-pole into your death timer.

CelticKaiser1 votes

Now that I think about it, Kassadin is actually a champion that probably needs that perpetually ghosted mechanic or at least when he does his ultimate he needs no unit collision because I once summoner 4 into a group of minions and was trapped (Literally unable to move)... and then the Riven came back and killed me...

Rakan Garfield1 votes

That moment when Kassadin is ghosted...

Ternt1 votes

Like all good things, pros abused it too much and it got nerfed.

F031 votes

the difference is hecarim is a 10 foot tall horseman with the reach of a grand piano with a spammable Q on a 4 second or 3 second cooldown? which is also on a low mana cost?

you try playing fizz and having to walk around those minion waves and see how well you live.

morris11 votes

Well for one you can dash through enemy minions or E if you really have a problem. So I see no reason as to why he should keep it.

F031 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moraru Maurice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0HXWYrmr,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2016-02-08T17:17:46.199+0000)

Well for one you can dash through enemy minions or E if you really have a problem. So I see no reason as to why he should keep it.

so if fizz couldn't move through minions he would need to guarantee not doing damage just to gap close towards his target?

so its fair a melee champion not only has to spend his abilities to get to a champion that doesn't have to walk through or around minions to fight to only end up doing damage with auto attacks? and then have to walk around or through those minions to not only be attacked by minions but also the ranged champion?

yea no you guys are just looking for excuses to nerf a champion you dont like

low elo bias man what are you gonna do.

morris11 votes

But what if you just E over the minions and onto the enemy? For one that's not wasting any damage. Second, his passive damage reduction is like a free item 1054 and it makes him win almost all skirmishes at level 3

SkyBlade791 votes

You do realize that Hecarim q deals completely minimal damage compared to any of fizz's abilities, right?

F031 votes

{quoted}

You do realize that Hecarim q deals completely minimal damage compared to any of fizz's abilities, right?

his Q costs 32 mana on a 4 second cooldown which is also halfed when it hits a champion his base mana is 277 the Q does 40 damage base + 40% bonus AD not including the attack boost he can get just from activating ghost hecarim can spam his Q 8 times before he runs oom if he doesn't have mana crystal or hunter's potion thats 320 damage with just one ability base this damage is also guaranteed if he just walks next to you

fizz has "317" that means he can only use his e 3 times before hes oom and thats not guaranteed damage Fizz Q can be negated by any dash or flash ( don't try to tell me it doesn't either i have played fizz numerous times, his Q can do 0 damage if you flash or dash it. i dont know the timing for it but it can happen) Fizz W is his only reliable source of damage

lets not forget you can literally spam abilities on fizz before he has any mana items because he has to choose between farming or fighting when he goes into lane

SkyBlade791 votes

Yeah, but Fizz can deal a ton of damage with just his autoattacks and q (and of course not everyone is going to flash it, that would be a complete waste), and his E, which has almost a second of invulnerability, a 75% AP ratio, and a very large slow. Plus, most toplaners will have quite a bit of built in armor, making hecarim do a lot less damage to them. And this whole time, Fizz is negating a very solid amount of damage with his second passive.

Kürama1 votes

Fizz

Dominick Destine1 votes

I tend to agree.

Fizz should lose his free ghost the same way Hecarim did .... the exact same justification applies, in fact I'd say it is more egregious with Fizz than Hec.

TheDevice1 votes

Kassadin Kassadin Kassadin Kassadin Kassadin

INNATE: Kassadin is perpetually ghosted and takes 15% reduced magic damage.

I think you just don't like fizz.

Hecarim has great mobility, tankiness and damage. To top all that off with perpetual ghost is pretty absurd. Im not saying fizz isn't a bit broken (I think fizz' entire kit is ridiculous) but 2 wrongs don't make a right. Kassadin is in the same boat as fizz. As as squishy mid-laner whos primarly vs ranged opponents it's something that helps their trades.

CelticKaiser2 votes

{quoted}

Kassadin Kassadin Kassadin Kassadin Kassadin

INNATE: Kassadin is perpetually ghosted and takes 15% reduced magic damage.

I think you just don't like fizz.

Hecarim has great mobility, tankiness and damage. To top all that off with perpetual ghost is pretty absurd. Im not saying fizz isn't a bit broken (I think fizz' entire kit is ridiculous) but 2 wrongs don't make a right. Kassadin is in the same boat as fizz. As as squishy mid-laner whos primarly vs ranged opponents it's something that helps their trades.

Yeah that was brought up earlier. I never noticed he had that passive and I don't think he needs to be perpetually ghosted. However, I would agree on that he needs the no unit collision when he does his ultimate because he might get stuck on minions or something when he summoner 4. And yes, I don't like FIzz. He even has that cottontail skin, that's not a global tauntTeemo... but a global fearFizz.

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