Why do we have champs that are unbalanced? And why Riot NEEDS to think thrice.

Lord Nachos·Apr 10, 2019·1 votes·1,075 views

Why the heck do some champs need a dash, a shield, a nuking slow, a self pull, a 40% heal, and a built in lichbane; while other champs simply move fast near other champs? ( sylas and singed). My question to you Riot is this; did you kiddos get your game design degrees through the mail? You people seem hell-bent on making inherently unfun, or grossly broken champs, its amazing. Why not simply think through your character development cycles? Ask yourselves questions, then ask your community those same questions. TLDR: please Rioto, learn to design champs that do not cause victories/losses purely based on toolkit design.

20 Comments

JamareeApr 10, 20197 votes

You know when you write out a kit like that, they all sound OP right, here watch:

Why does this champion get passive heal, an ad shred, and mr shred, and amor shred, the largest unconditional AoE in the game, true damage, and AoE slow with a knock up attached to it?

Also, that argument falls apart a bit when Sylas has a lower win rate then Singed and champions with simple kits tend to have far higher win rates, case in point Ashe and Sona who both respectively have 53% globally at Plat

The EcdysiastApr 10, 20192 votes

{quoted}

You know when you write out a kit like that, they all sound OP right, here watch:

Why does this champion get passive heal, an ad shred, and mr shred, and amor shred, the largest unconditional AoE in the game, true damage, and AoE slow with a knock up attached to it?

Also, that argument falls apart a bit when Sylas has a lower win rate then Singed and champions with simple win rates tend to have far higher win rates, case in point Ashe and Sona who both respectively have 53% globally at Plat

My favorite one to write out is:

Passive: Every auto attack slows and deals bonus magic damage Q: Targeted, low-cost, high-damage nuke that can crit and apply on-hit effects including the passive W: A cleanse that even works on suppression, alongside a 360 base, 100% AP scaling heal E: Passively grants bonus AD and MS, active more than doubles both and grants the base to allies within a gigantic radius R: Global ground-target slow with 1155 base damage over 7 seconds

Old GP was so op guys.

JamareeApr 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0EYYEJxp,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-04-10T01:20:13.282+0000)

My favorite one to write out is:

Passive: Every auto attack slows and deals bonus magic damage Q: Targeted, low-cost, high-damage nuke that can crit and apply on-hit effects including the passive W: A cleanse that even works on suppression, alongside a 360 base, 100% AP scaling heal E: Passively grants bonus AD and MS, active more than doubles both and grants the base to allies within a gigantic radius R: Global ground-target slow with 1155 base damage over 7 seconds

Old GP was so op guys.

Mines is Trundle btw.

ModWulf HelhammerApr 10, 20192 votes

For the life of me I can't think of what champion that is

JamareeApr 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wilk Łucznik,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0EYYEJxp,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-04-10T01:22:31.130+0000)

For the life of me I can't think of what champion that is

Trundle. His Q ad shreds, his W is by far the largest AoE in the game unconditionally, his E is a slow and technically has a single point of true damage to help better apply for assist and can knock up and his r can mr and armor shred with his passive healing off things dying, does marvels to prove my point though huh?

SaezioApr 10, 20191 votes

what's the difference between ad shred and armor shred?

Also, Sylas has 46% winrate and 10% pickrate, singed has 49% winrate but is played 1% of the games. So, it is fair to say singed sees play from dedicated singed players but even they can't pull him off, while sylas might see less success %wise but he is also played by everyone and their mothers. If you check tier lists in all major sites, Sylas is listed above Singed (they are both in a bad spot though, hovering between 125-140/143)

Also, "champions with simple winrates tend to have far higher winrates" ? Simple kits I guess?

JamareeApr 10, 20192 votes

{quoted}

what's the difference between ad shred and armor shred?

Ad shred is attack damage and armor is armor

Also, Sylas has 46% winrate and 10% pickrate, singed has 49% winrate but is played 1% of the games. So, it is fair to say singed sees play from dedicated singed players but even they can't pull him off, while sylas might see less success %wise but he is also played by everyone and their mothers. If you check tier lists in all major sites, Sylas is listed above Singed (they are both in a bad spot though, hovering between 125-140/143)

Other examples like Ashe and Sona work though as well who only have 2 to 3% less play rate but 7% higher win rate

Also, "champions with simple winrates tend to have far higher winrates" ? Simple kits I guess?

Yup that, autocorrect, I’m mobile at the moment.

The EcdysiastApr 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

what's the difference between ad shred and armor shred?

Also, Sylas has 46% winrate and 10% pickrate, singed has 49% winrate but is played 1% of the games. So, it is fair to say singed sees play from dedicated singed players but even they can't pull him off, while sylas might see less success %wise but he is also played by everyone and their mothers. If you check tier lists in all major sites, Sylas is listed above Singed (they are both in a bad spot though, hovering between 125-140/143)

Also, "champions with simple winrates tend to have far higher winrates" ? Simple kits I guess?

Yeah, that's not evidence that more complex kits are unbalanced, that's just proof Singed is completely outdated. His design was fine for season 1, but hasn't been reliable for a long time. It's on par with old Yorick with how much of a failure it is.

SaezioApr 10, 20191 votes

wait, how does trundle have true damage?

JamareeApr 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

wait, how does trundle have true damage?

Yup, a SINGLE point in his pillar to help trigger assist.

SaezioApr 10, 20191 votes

Why that shit not nerfed yet? My riven struggles against it. Rito pls 9.9 the latest I want Trundle pillar to heal the enemy.

JamareeApr 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Why that shit not nerfed yet? My riven struggles against it. Rito pls 9.9 the latest I want Trundle pillar to heal the enemy.

Right? :^)

Hayaishi2Apr 10, 20192 votes

Because the new champions are designed to sell more.

Look at Kaisa Why do we even need Kaisa? What role does she fulfill that isn't already fulfilled by other champions?

She is pretty much Vayne while being a stronger hybrid champion than Varus/Kogmaw.

Ofc Riot had to gut her into the ground to actually balance her because her design from the get go is to be superior to everyone she competes with.

HotarµApr 10, 20191 votes

Except plenty of old champions are still strong? Ashe, Zilean, Annie, Twisted Fate, Sivir, Jax, and plenty of others are still very strong and/or very meta.

Hayaishi2Apr 10, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Except plenty of old champions are still strong? Ashe, Zilean, Annie, Twisted Fate, Sivir, Jax, and plenty of others are still very strong and/or very meta.

I didn't mean to say old champions were weak. But new champions are meant to be stronger than old ones and Riot sometimes would rather apply their new ideas on new champions instead of using them on old champions that could definitely use new ideas.

I mean you look at how some old champions to this day have one ability which is complete garbage compared to new abilities (Even if the champion is still fine balance wise) Ex; Sylas E gives him a gapcloser (which includes a stun and a knock up all in the second cast), a small dash, AA reset and a AP scaling shield ALL on the same ability while all JarvanIV does is some random magic damage grant vision and AOE attack speed boost (arguably its best feature)

Yes before you say "You cant compare abilities in a vacuum" i wanna say that i'm 100% sure that if Jarvan was designed today he'd have his E-Q combo in a single ability.

There's absolutely no reason for J4's E to be as bland of an ability as it currently is while Sylas' E is pretty much the second of coming of jesus when it comes to gap closers in terms of how much value that thing has.

Look at Varus VS Jinx passives

Varus Temporarily gives him AS upon killing minions and a larger one on take downs meanwhile Jinx's temporarily gives a huge movement speed boost on take downs or tower kills while also increasing her AS by 15% and ALSO allows her to go past the AS cap WHILE ALSO BEING EASIER TO PROC.

Jinx passive lasts longer than Varus (6 seconds to 5) Gives her mobility which can be used to escape in certain situations (For a champion that can already has an on demand root and can AA from 700 range) BUT IT ALSO gives her a slight attack speed boost and allows her to bypass the AS cap so her Q AS boost isn't wasted.

Meanwhile Varus who doesn't even have an on demand steroid like Jinx does and is purely inmobile can't be allowed to have a more impactful passive.

Varus Should have gotten the "bypass the AS cap" thing on his passive not Jinx who is already loaded with steroids on her kit and her passive already serves another purpose, Varus players have been asking for a better passive for years but Varus doesn't sell skins and Jinx does so who cares about what Varus players want? But if Zed isn't pick/ban for a single season Riot makes sure he gets the buffs he deserves.

You can find hundreds of comparison like this between a champion released in 2019 and another one released back in S2 or S4.

The EcdysiastApr 10, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Because the new champions are designed to sell more.

Look at Kaisa? Why do we even need Kaisa? What role does she fulfill that isn't already fulfilled by other champions?

She is pretty much Vayne while being a stronger hybrid champion than Varus/Kogmaw.

Ofc Riot had to gut her into the ground to actually balance her because her design from the get go is to be superior to everyone she competes with.

With that logic, we only need four ADCs: Ezreal, Tristana, Vayne, and Draven. Ezreal covers the poke style, Tristana covers high-range and waveclear, Vayne covers on-hit, and Draven covers high-damage.

You do have somewhat of a point though. The fact it's near impossible to make a unique ADC kit is exactly why the game has so few ADCs, and most new champions are more ability-oriented. It's a lot easier to make a new kit when you aren't limited to orienting their abilities around auto-attacks.

That's why so many ADCs are so similar. Because every role an ADC can fill without being completely broken is already covered. We can't reasonably have an adc with shields and in-kit healing, because being squishy is part of the class's definition. Nor can we give them a bunch of hard cc, also because relying on the peel of allies is part of the class's definition.

And when they have tried to make more unique ADCs, they end up no longer being able to fulfill the roll of an ADC. Graves is now extremely ineffective at trying to stay at range and deal sustained damage. Jhin always acts more like a caster, and can't build certain ADC items, like Bork, effectively.

So, yeah, Kai'sa doesn't fill a role that another ADC doesn't already. But that's the nature of the ADC class. Design-wise it is by far the most restrictive.

The EcdysiastApr 10, 20191 votes

Exactly as Jamaree pointed out, it's because just listing off abilities doesn't mean shit. It's how they're implemented.

Why some champs are designed more simply while others have more complexity is because people like that. Plenty of people like ADCs or on-hit fighters, while others like casters.

And it's really stupid to use an outdated champion who needs a rework as your comparison. Try using one who's simple and modern, like the new Warwick. It's much clearer to see how Warwick's abilities are implemented, rather than Singed who relies entirely on a unique and anti-team-player way of playing.

Tham ChundiApr 10, 20191 votes

Yes please give vi a nuking

lowrankheroApr 10, 20191 votes

Can you imagine a champion that didn't have to use Mana, a lock on nuke with a slow a single target ability that gurantees dragon and baron and a massive aoe nuke slow. And on top of all of that they also had a move speed and attack speed buff. Rito plz Nerf old nunu