Boards›Gameplay

The Direction Of LoL

Manlymancake··17 votes·1,990 views

Hello summoners, My name is Manlymancake and i am a fairly large fan of LoL. My current rank is d5 and have been d3 in s5. I have been in and out of diamond for the last 2 seasons. Although my opinion on balance should not be taken as fact (far from it) i would like to say i have fairly good ideas on the balance of meta game. Now with the recent changes to towers and minions and the introduction to rift herald the game is MUCH more snow bally. Now i see the merit in making the game more punishing for mistakes but i also do not like how snow bally it is. I think the tower nerfs are a bit over the top considering MANY champions that are late game are completely awful currently. And the champions that are strong are even more strong in comparison any other meta it seems. There are far too many OP champions to ban and with only 6 banns its hard-pressed to get a game without an enemy champion seeming to make the game unfair do to overpowered stats/kits alike. Now i realize having a perfectly balanced games is pretty much an impossible task but there are well over 120 champions in LoL currently with the same number of banns as there were with less then 70 champions! An i can assure there is always going to be more then 6 overpowered champions in any meta. This lowers versatility because now you have not only cut out late game champions but also any champions that is not tier 2 or higher. Also i am not a fan of solo play isnt as rewarding as it used to be. Now i realize it is a team game! But it seems harder to solo carry then it ever has been. I do like team play but i also love being rewarded for individual play too. Im not crying about it being harder to carry because i do recognize that it is very possible to solo carry a game as higher elo players do it all the time but it is much harder to do so now then it has ever been The reasons i beleive this because if only 1 lane wins then the other 2 lanes will lose their towers much faster resulting into the gain of both global gold and map pressure to the enemy team due to the tower nerfs (not to mention rift herald). Now i love LoL and want to see it succeed which is why i am posting this. What made LoL so great to me was the balance between both team play and individual play. The balance between strategy's versatility and mechanics. And in my opinions this season seems to have taken the largest step away from that. This is only an opinion! And i would love to hear all of yours. I welcome people to challenge this because this season seems to be the most concerning to me. Thank you and good luck on the rift!

26 Comments

Retillin13 votes

I wish it were just this issue. When reading the Fiora hair story (how Riot was SHOCKED that people didn't like her visual change at all), it really just showed how out of touch Riot is with their base on a lot of issues. Ie look at their shock with the Sandbox announcement. I don't know where Riot keeps getting their player feed back, but it's amazing at how often they change something (or don't) and just assume everyone likes it the way they do. (Morde, Cass, towers, sandbox, ect...)

Sluiceway8 votes

The problem with Riot's design/balance choices is problematic, as I see it, for two reasons. First, they balance primarily around the LCS (which they expanded to twelve teams in NA, if I am correct, so 60 players per region, give or take a team - but mostly to have a number so we have a place to ground the discussion, hopefully one that is not wildly inaccurate). This is an extreme minority in a game that has a player base in the millions. They removed Zephyr, for example, because only Irelia built it in LCS games, so that made the item underused and up for removal in their eyes. They did not, and do not, take into account things players like myself used Zephyr for Hecarim with Triforce + Swiftness Boots + tank items as needed, or, as another player pointed out, building zephyr + Swiftness Boots on Tryndamere for max chase potential. Then there was their handling of the tank meta, which they did away with by nerfing both tanks and their core items because they proved, in the hands of LCS top laners/junglers, to be able to keep high mobility mid assassins under control, and, again, with no regard for the majority of the players who are more likely to pick champs because of personal preference rather than their status as the flavor of the month, also known as the meta.

Second, and building on this, is that the majority of their nerfs/reworks are always done with only the short term in mind. Take, for example, Riot's removal of SIlence from LeBlanc's Sigil because they through silence on an assassin was too oppressive. That removal was a key factor in Hai playing Soraka against LeBlanc back in 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IYaQBbbzdQ and keeping her shut down convincingly when a LeBlanc with silence would have stood a better chance, depending on who was quicker on the silence (an edge I would still give to Hai at the time, but that is an issue of player skill rather than champion balance). This event was what put Soraka (she was the second champ I ever bought and my long time favorite, so I basically learned LoL and Soraka at the same time) on their radar for a rework that annoyed myself and other Soraka players. This seems to me a small picture of Riot's overall design/balance rationale: pull one thread because it was a little loose, maybe, then pull another that was loosened by pulling the one before it, then again, and again. This ties in to my first point in that, because Hai used her to shut down an lcsbigplay-maker (in part because of Riot's nerf to LeBlanc) once, they began to worry that Soraka would become a meta champ as a mid/top laner like Lulu, so they reworked her in such a way that she needs the protection of an ADC (that was their intent as I see it, at least).

So, in short, Riot has, as Retillin observes, lost touch with the player base, a deliberate choice put the LCS above all, and done so in a manner akin to pulling a loose thread, which loosens more threads that they continue to pull, the inevitable end of which is the whole game comes unraveled.

AVL Prince2 votes

I wrote a longer post but I lost it, so

tl;dr

You can't balance for the masses (bronze - gold; 90%) . Balancing for the masses results in massive balance instability and the disintegration of anything remotely resembling a "pro scene". Riot's balance philosophy isn't a flawed philosophy, it is the only philosophy. A game balanced at the highest potential is a game of true balance. If everything is even and no outliers exist (Extremely unlikely as there will always be outliers, but my point stands) the game is perfectly balanced. If someone beats you it's because they outpicked or outplayed you, and nothing else. Has riot achieved this? Obviously, no, but that's not a fault of their balance philosophy and rather a fault of their specific balance decisions. Honestly though, give them a break. Creating a game suspended in a perfect equilibrium of balance among quite literally thousands of variables isn't exactly like 1-2-3.

Sluiceway3 votes

I think it is possible to balance a game for the majority over the minority of players, but most of that balance would revolve around not making major changes to champions or items, but rather tweaking numbers, things like base damage, scaling, ratios, and other fine details of the game. Returning to my Soraka example, she was a balanced champion that they made imbalanced because they did not like her solo lane performance, but that was only an issue because they threw LeBlanc out of balance (in the LeBlanc v Soraka matchup, at least) when they took away her silence (I could add Kassadin to this as well, since he is designed to kill mages like Soraka, Lulu, Anivia, Orianna, Syndra, etc., and a silence synergizes with that end).

As for destabilizing the LCS, these are supposedly the best players in the world, and have proven the ability to adapt strategies (my favorite example was counterpicking Mundo with Trundle, a choice that happened because it was strategically viable, not because of any buffs to Trundle) when confronted with a new situation. They did not need to buff Trundle to make him a meta champ because he was already balanced, and that the summary of my point: the game was balanced until Riot decided to throw it off, replacing it with blatant favoritism (most noticable in nerfs to Elise, Evelynn, J4, Gragas, Sejuani [just off the top of my head] because they could match Lee Sin in the LCS jungle, and rather than allow Lee Sin players to adapt their play or change champions). So it is not what Riot has to do, actively balance the game around the majority, but merely not actively unbalance using "encouraging diversity" as an excuse. Diversity is something that, returning to the Trundle example, will occur naturally in the LCS as teams and their coaching staff will develop new strategies to counter what is currently played (like C9 did in their first LCS season when they pioneered the Ashe/Zyra bot lane that later fell out of favor once other teams learned how to beat it, and without Riot's intervention).

Finally, in regards to your statement, "but that's not a fault of their balance philosophy and rather a fault of their specific balance decisions," their specific balance decisions are the expression of their overall balance philosophy.

AVL Prince2 votes

I'm confused. Perhaps your simply falling for the negativity bias and remembering just the big changes you didn't necessarily like, but last I checked, tweaking numbers like base damages, scaling, and the like is exactly how Riot balances from patch to patch throughout the season. Keep in mind that there are typically over 10 + patches per season and each patch includes a large number of small balance tweaks to bring in the outliers that are upsetting the balance of the game. This is not a new pattern and has existed from the inception of league and it's very first patch.

Addressing your soraka example, though - I'm not sure you really understand what that was about. AP soraka mid was the best midlaner, by far, for all of that patch (I can't remember the one off the top of me head). She was nerfed hard and then subsequently reworked, not because she threw Leblanc out of balance (I'm not sure why you keep coming back to this. Again, Riot's balance philosophy tends to the better players, or the top 10% of the game, not just the LCS.), but rather because she was incredibly toxic in the mid lane and only fostered anger without counterplay. Remember that this was the point where Soraka had a 100+ armor buff on her heal, a spammable heal, an AOE undodgeable low mana extremely low cooldown nuke, and support and utility to boot. She didn't get nerfed because of leblanc. It had nothing to do with leblanc. She got nerfed because she was broken. If you'll then recall correctly, the rework came because people were fed up with soraka being useless because in order to keep her from being insanely broken as a mage she had to be nerfed into obscurity, which, unfortunately, left her support with much to desire.

** disclaimer: I'm in no way saying soraka is in a healthy place right now, but what she is is in a place that equips her with several levers Riot can use to balance her as a support, without risking her becoming a monster midlane.

As for your second paragraph, you still seem to misunderstand what I am saying. The tank meta that you reference, that got nerfed? Those champions were nerfed for the majority - the majority of people were complaining that sejuani was dealing 20,000 damage with her W and the stats of a lategame alistar, so, as resultingly, she got nerfed. Statistically all the data was there too - everything pointed to her being broken. And what do we do, to preserve balance, when people are broken? We nerf them.

As I say, you cannot balance accordingly to the majority. It's just not possible, because the majority asks for silly things. Do you know how many times I read a thread where some silver rated player is venting, screaming for xin zhao nerfs because last game the enemy team's xin zhao went 15-3? Or that Yi is disgustingly broken, because he can gank from 213123 miles away going 1231255 miles per hour? You get my point.

Obliging the majority will net no good. There will be no diversity. There will be no strategic value. There will be no adaptation. If Riot balances the game accordingly to the bronze, silver, and gold players of the world, everything will fall out of balance and will stay that way indefinitely. Not only will professional games become stale, repetitive and utterly polarized as a result of multiple outliers becoming the supreme choice in all games (and all games being decided by those outliers outright, ad infinitum - there is no "adaptation" when one pick stomps them all), but you will find yourself stuck in the exact same situation, only worse. Games will still be unbalanced, people will still get stomped, and people will still complain.

That's the root of all of this, though, isn't it? Complaining? The only reason something should be nerfed is because of statistical outliers and problems, not subjective opinion. That, in my opinion, is the only thing Riot is doing philosophically wrong.

Sluiceway3 votes

I did not say Soraka broke LeBlanc, I said Riot broke LeBlanc, which (along with Hai's skill) allowed Soraka to see successful LCS play, which made Riot nerf her into the ground then rework her. Before Hai played her, there was no hint from Riot that she was even potentially a problem. Nor do I think this is merely about LeBlanc, but that it brought to Riot's attention a way of playing Soraka that they hated for some reason, even though it was their balance mistakes that opened the door for a champ being played in a way they hated. I stick with this because it is a good, clear example of Riot creating balance problems that did not exist before. And, if Riot had left her alone, eventually someone would have come up with a counterpick, as Trundle was for Mundo/Shyvana.

Nor do I consider complaints on the forums a good source of balance information, as there are still forum posts floating around that claim Soraka is op and anti-fun. And, as you rightly observe, "The only reason something should be nerfed [or buffed] is because of statistical outliers and problems (my addition)." But Soraka never had a overly high win rate, so statistically there was no cause for such a major rework beyond Riot's subjective belief that she could possibly be able to win lane against assassins. Instead of letting the players work it out for themselves in cases like these (both LeBlanc's and Soraka's), they make rash decisions that end up doing more harm than good.

If they had left Soraka alone, at least, and she had become meta, then the meta would have shifted, perhaps (hypothetically) bringing Karthus back, since he can farm from a safe distance, and match her global heal with his global death (or Veigar or Malzahar, two champs I always found it prudent to not pick Soraka into; but why expect players to adapt their picks like so when it is quicker to just rework the "offending" champion?). But we will never know because Riot overreacted and chose to rework Soraka completely with the seeming intent of forcing her out of any role but support instead of continuing to tweak her as needed. You say she was toxic to play against, but elsewhere you say players will always complain that what they can't beat is broken, so that is not a valid reason to rework Soraka or any champion, especially because it denies player skill entirely by labeling the champion as OP because someone is better at it than you want them to be. Furthermore, As Riot says in the Fiora rework retrospective, "Once a character goes live and players learn that character and use that character (sometimes in ways we don’t anticipate), that character becomes something different from what we built.” But that, too, is not a valid reason for nerfing a champion into the ground or reworking him/her, because it serves only to punish those players who spent the time to learn and refine their play for the sole reason that they went against Riot's perception of how/where a champ should be played.

If I seem unfair, let me add that there are reworks that were not so heavy handed as this, and that I found to be well executed, including Sona's, Tristana's, and Skarner's (although the crystal thing is a little gimmicky). And if I seem harsh, it is only because I think this is the best of the moba games, and I don't want to see if fall apart under Riot's mismanagement (with a little left over for my personal ineffectiveness at expressing constructive criticism).

Edit: To the lurkers that keeps downvoting Prince Rivera's posts, feel free to contribute to the conversation if you disagree with him. Otherwise we don't know what you are thinking.

BluePolarizer9 votes

I agree. Everything has become geared towards team snowballing.

A Miss Fortune2 votes

You pretty much know who's going to win every game, as soon as the enemy team gets a kill or two it turns just into everyone on their team snowballing out of control with a massive gold lead above you.

The enemy team either snowballs out of control or someone didn't ban Soraka, Lee, Yasuo, Mundo, Vayne, Fiora, etc and you lose in champion select anyways.

Either way games feeling unsatisfying to win or lose.

Get It1 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=01IKhhQ6,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-12-24T12:40:18.111+0000)

You pretty much know who's going to win every game, as soon as the enemy team gets a kill or two it turns just into everyone on their team snowballing out of control with a massive gold lead above you.

The enemy team either snowballs out of control or someone didn't ban Soraka, Lee, Yasuo, Mundo, Vayne, Fiora, etc and you lose in champion select anyways.

Either way games feeling unsatisfying to win or lose.

This is a big problem, since riot doesn't legit care about balence (remember them trying to rework/change lee sin). They are sooooooo geared toward AD now that it's kinda ridiculous. All I have to say is that yasuo mid= most other mid landers useless against a wind wall. RIOT PLEASE.

TruckFump20169 votes

I feel like they should raise it to at least 8 bans...

Manlymancake4 votes

I agree, I think 10 would be appropriate. Not too much where you could ban certain people out of their mains but more then 6!

Wyrmblade4 votes

I think the major flaw with riot is their company culture. They almost never actually admit they're wrong and seem absolutely adamant they know what the players want better than the players.

Manlymancake2 votes

Sorry for any grammatical cringe. I typed this way too fast and didn't proof read it haha

AATTRROOXX2 votes

You can edit it if you find any. There's a small edit button at the bottom of the post.

Horse Grenades2 votes

I think nailed it! As a twitch/jinx main this preseason really hurt me because the game is usually decided by the time I become relevant. It's much harder to solo carry also because of the gold infusion from shutdown bounties coming after just 2 kills now.

MLDzXnRRR2 votes

[{quoted}](name=ApocaIypse Meow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=01IKhhQ6,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-12-24T05:11:27.283+0000)

I think nailed it! As a twitch/jinx main this preseason really hurt me because the game is usually decided by the time I become relevant. It's much harder to solo carry also because of the gold infusion from shutdown bounties coming after just 2 kills now.

So you want to 1 v 5 in a 5v5 game. Seems fair...

Slamurai Jack2 votes

I'm curious what your list of OP champions is where 6 bans isn't sufficient. Hell, I sometimes just ban random shit just to get through bans faster.

BluePolarizer1 votes

I personally want these champs banned as often as possible:

Tahm Kench Soraka Vayne Dr. Mundo Jax Miss Fortune Rengar

But it's not possible for them all to be banned. I'm not sure why you'd think that any of the above champs were not extreme threats if you were not playing them yourself. For instance, if you were playing Yasuo and the enemy team has Mundo, the difference between the win chances of your teams is 10%.

Slamurai Jack3 votes

That's more of a statement on how shitty Yasuo is rather than how good Mundo is. And I'm not afraid of Mundo in the slightest because I was playing him well before it was cool and know exactly how to deal with him. Vayne is also a dumb ban unless your team comp is countered by her and Soraka is meh now. Jax is absurdly overrated atm as well. The only banworthy champion on that list is MF, and only if you aren't personally picking a champion that can deal with her, of which there are several. The rest of those champs are fair game.

I also think it's interesting that not a single mage is on that list when they're easily the most ban worthy champions right now if your goal is to win. Lux is one of the best champs you could be banning when you consider that her winrate and pickrate are both very high but she's almost never banned. Malphite and Janna are also strong bans, but I never see those either. Hell, I don't even see Gangplank bans and he's completely broken if the person playing him actually knows what they're doing.

Skias1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=01IKhhQ6,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2015-12-24T10:25:28.296+0000)

That's more of a statement on how shitty Yasuo is rather than how good Mundo is. And I'm not afraid of Mundo in the slightest because I was playing him well before it was cool and know exactly how to deal with him. Vayne is also a dumb ban unless your team comp is countered by her and Soraka is meh now. Jax is absurdly overrated atm as well. The only banworthy champion on that list is MF, and only if you aren't personally picking a champion that can deal with her, of which there are several. The rest of those champs are fair game.

I also think it's interesting that not a single mage is on that list when they're easily the most ban worthy champions right now if your goal is to win. Lux is one of the best champs you could be banning when you consider that her winrate and pickrate are both very high but she's almost never banned. Malphite and Janna are also strong bans, but I never see those either. Hell, I don't even see Gangplank bans and he's completely broken if the person playing him actually knows what they're doing.

I disagree. I think Vayne has a very low skill ceiling compared to most carries due to the fact that she doesn't have to give a rats ass about itemization. Be in the right place, ult, tumble, win. Shes extremely hard to fend off, especially in the hands of someone practiced. Same thing goes with Jax. He scales so insanely, that once ahead, he ruins you.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

I'm never gonna ban Vayne from the enemy team because she has the easiest counterplay in the world: Take her tower early, shove to her side, and the roam all day while Vayne afk farms on her side of the map. Literally make the game a 4v5 for over 10 minutes just so Vayne can get her precious farm.

Dealth2 votes

Riot has already done multiple things to reduce "snowballing". Towers were buffed, and the experience reward for killing an enemy champion was reduced. Games are the same length now as they used to be. Right now, any "snowballing" is all in your head.

BluePolarizer3 votes

game lengths are longer because it's dragged out. the decisive part (where the snowballing got started) is still very early.

diamonds and plats here are saying that snowballing is bad. maybe they have a valid point.

Skias3 votes

{quoted}

Riot has already done multiple things to reduce "snowballing". Towers were buffed, and the experience reward for killing an enemy champion was reduced. Games are the same length now as they used to be. Right now, any "snowballing" is all in your head.

That is completely untrue. The "Buffs" to turrets still means turrets are just paper fly swatters that helplessly smack at foes after 4mins into the game. The game duration may have gotten slightly longer, but the team that got first blood still is likely to win. There really isnt much you can do after the enemy with the massive gold advantage powers to the nexus.

Dealth1 votes

The games are the same as they have always been. Comebacks aren't supposed to be an every-game thing. In order to make one, your team has to be better than the enemy team. And if your team has already given up 5+ kills, then that means they probably aren't skilled enough to make a comeback. It just means they are worse than the enemy.

Chicken4dinner1 votes

The rift herald is just another headache to look out for, especially when not bot as I like to roam alot yet I dont want to think about the fact that tp'ing bot for drag will cause us to lose top tower cuz of the enemy getting herald buff and turbo farming the waves

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes