I was just curious if there was going to be any investigation into the potential match fixing. The two organizations are obviously very close, as shown by loaning of a star na player. Game three showed uncharacteristic play from the number one seed.
anonymous1196 votesIt was not at all uncharacteristic of tsm.
The other team they lost to was echo fox was of similar standing to TL. Tsm had an extremely close series against NV the team below TL.
Literally multiple riot employees are listening in on the voice coms for the entire match.
The loss from tsm almost cost them their first seed going into playoffs.
Tsm's coach has strong words about this topic before the match even started explaining that it's among the worst feelings to lose to former teamates.
Please think things through before jumping to conspiracy theories.
Psybicilin1 votesIf there was going to be match fixing I highly doubt it would be discussed during the match. Additionally, it wouldn't require everyone on TSM to participate, maybe just one or two members performing poorly. OP was just wondering if there was going to be an investigation; no where do I see him "jumping to conspiracy theories" when there's a very possible conflict of interests.
anonymous1193 votesIf there was going to be match fixing I highly doubt it would be discussed during the match. Additionally, it wouldn't require everyone on TSM to participate, maybe just one or two members performing poorly. OP was just wondering if there was going to be an investigation; no where do I see him "jumping to conspiracy theories" when there's a very possible conflict of interests.
I sincerely doubt riot wouldn't notice some thing was wrong listening to 2+ hours of a teams voice communications if they were sandbagging to lose on purpose or with the cameras following them around for every single moment after they stepped on riot property. How many pro players are also professional actors.
I don't even buy into the conflict of interest. Doublelift was being paid to sit on tsm's bench getting rusty from only playing solo queue. Reginald gave an interview where he outlined why he was trading his contract because he thought the lack of time on stage would cause problems when he decided to return to pro play. If you saw his first days on stage then you'd definitely see how right reginald was.
I personally think it's conspiracy theory bullshit because it's applying a narrative with a complete lack of information. If you've followed tsm throughout the seasons then you'd know that their loss to TL was some thing that happens pretty much every single season when they throw to a bottom ranked team.
Psybicilin1 votesMy point is that TL and TSM orgs are very close, and if this win gives a better seeding in the relegation tournament, it represents a win-win for both orgs. Like do you think if Envy were to ask Regi for doublelift's contract he would say yes? Highly unlikely. C9, TSM, and TL will always scratch each other's back with the big investors getting involved in LCS. And it would be so easy to throw perhaps as the mid laner. All you would have to do is change your mouse sensitivity or make a poor decision. It's not like in voice comms, teams are like "Yeah I want to win!" or "Darn we are losing!" It is usually very emotionless calls about mia's etc, like I don't understand why it would be hard to "act" in this situation. If there was match fixing it would have been discussed BEFORE they set foot on the premises. And just because Reginald says something in an interview does not mean that he actually believes it. He's an org owner, and he has to worry about his public image and the TSM brand image.
anonymous1193 votesMy point is that TL and TSM orgs are very close, and if this win gives a better seeding in the relegation tournament, it represents a win-win for both orgs. Like do you think if Envy were to ask Regi for doublelift's contract he would say yes? Highly unlikely. C9, TSM, and TL will always scratch each other's back with the big investors getting involved in LCS. And it would be so easy to throw perhaps as the mid laner. All you would have to do is change your mouse sensitivity or make a poor decision. It's not like in voice comms, teams are like "Yeah I want to win!" or "Darn we are losing!" It is usually very emotionless calls about mia's etc, like I don't understand why it would be hard to "act" in this situation. If there was match fixing it would have been discussed BEFORE they set foot on the premises. And just because Reginald says something in an interview does not mean that he actually believes it. He's an org owner, and he has to worry about his public image and the TSM brand image.
How is almost losing the first seed for the spring finals a win-win situation for tsm? How is TL scratching tsm's back?
To repeat an earlier argument, riot does mic check where they literally have people listen to every single moment of a voice communication from the entire time the teams are playing. I really just don't think 12+ teenagers/people in their early 20s are going to lie with perfect conviction for the two hours when their every single movement is being followed with a camera and every thing they say is being recorded. You say you don't see how it would be hard to act in those situations and I think that's the crux of the differences between us. I think you're full of it and that makes no sense to me that 10 players with no acting experience between them are going to fool literally millions of people scrutinizing their every movement.
Riot isn't stupid. They've listened to every single match from tsm played on that stage. They have recordings of every single match communication that team has ever played on stage. Why do you think they wouldn't notice a team acting different from normal?
III BAKURYU III 2 votes" I think you're full of shit" - Calm down tiger no need for that.
" Riot isn't stupid. They've listened to every single match from tsm played on that stage. They have recordings of every single match communication that team has ever played on stage. Why do you think they wouldn't notice a team acting different from normal ? "
You do realize that each game there are referees on stage with the players that listens to every single game and they report anything they find could be cheating or against the rules and yet I don't recall them finding anything or hearing anything from a single player.
anonymous1192 votes[{quoted}](name=III BAKURYU III ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=Vm78uLte,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-27T08:41:14.201+0000)
" I think you're full of shit" - Calm down tiger no need for that.
" Riot isn't stupid. They've listened to every single match from tsm played on that stage. They have recordings of every single match communication that team has ever played on stage. Why do you think they wouldn't notice a team acting different from normal ? "
You do realize that each game there are referees on stage with the players that listens to every single game and they report anything they find could be cheating or against the rules and yet I don't recall them finding anything or hearing anything from a single player.
It used to be a lot more common a few years ago that the refs had to step in.
Teams who were intentionally causing pauses at key moments so they could talk during the pause caused the rule change players aren't allowed to speak and were fined by the refs. Later on refs fined multiple teams for breaking that rule and talking during pauses.
Refs caught and fined players looking at the big screen that doesn't have fog of war.
Curse and dignitas colluded to split the prize money from a lol tournament and half ass their games against each other and got caught by riot pretty much right away.
III BAKURYU III 2 votesOk, and what about the TSM/TL situation with your
" . I really just don't think 12+ teenagers/people in their early 20s are going to lie with perfect conviction for the two hours when their every single movement is being followed with a camera"
Don't you think if TSM/TL did possibly say something or got caught cheating the refs would have stopped the game instead of letting the games/series continue?
That was my last question/post as I have nothing more to say about this topic and need to hit the ol' dusty trail soon. I will however read your response to this as it was your post so I view it you should have the last word.
anonymous1192 votesI'm sitting in 20 minute queues between games in mid diamond so this is just killing time to me.
I don't believe the refs would have stopped the match. Riot usually builds their case internally then gives a brief synopsis of what happened and lists the penalties.
III BAKURYU III 2 votesTrue, build up evidence then strike. Well, good sir like I said I'm going to bed, Gl in your game.
Warlord Scrap1 votesTsm has a history of losing game 1 and but coming back in games 2 and three. And while i didnt watch the game straight between playing my own and switching games i feel like it finally caught up to them as well as the fact they already knew they made playoffs with no wildcard.
III BAKURYU III 2 votesHere is what I personally got out of it with the information that IS infront of us. TSM did look pretty bad in their TL series but maybe they did throw that series to help TL; would I say they wouldn't NO I wouldn't say that but I also look at it like this. TSM could have also be looking at different other things, plays, objectives in a different order, context because they could have afforded to lose that series so why not experiment while you can before the Playoffs? Everyone already knows the TL-TSM buddy buddy situation so I don't need or want to dive into that as everyone already seems to know it by now.
Investigation I don't think there will be one because who's to say TSM actually didn't fix that series or helped TL win, but instead actually did try but just lost and got beat. ? It's too hard for Riot to actually do something. It's like having 0 proof or evidence you have no case or logic to stand on. I personally can't think of something to go on other than all 5 players not using runes or something other than that you have to base it on word of mouth and get it from the horses mouth themselves. " Bjergsen, Hauntzer, TSM players, did you guys throw that series on purpose" - " No"
TSM members could have leaked twitter or personal logs to D-Lift or Steve etc so maybe Riot can find something there but even so if I would throw a series on purpose I wouldn't tell anyone that I was going to do so, but instead just not try as hard or as much in those specific games. Or maybe Reginald just walked up to Steve as LCS players play, hangout and are near the LCS stadium from Friday-Sunday and just told him in person instead of E-mailing or logs, twitter who knows.
Looking at certain players on the TSM team WIldturtle- Dies 1v5 no idiot would fight 1v5 intentionally feeding on purpose. - He has a history of getting caught out 24/7. Svenskeren - Has a history of being too aggressive whenever he shouldn't be- hence his 2016 Worlds.
TL sure is pretty stank but TSM at the same time are hit n miss sometimes as this split wasn't all roses and honey for them even as the best NA team.
Overall do I think TSM lost the TL series on purpose yeah, I do honestly, do I think there will be an investigation, no.
anonymous1192 votes[deleted]
III BAKURYU III 2 votesI don't think I countered my own points.
" Here is what I personally got out of it with the information that IS infront of us. TSM did look pretty bad in their TL series but maybe they did throw that series to help TL; would I say they wouldn't NO I wouldn't say that but I also look at it like this. TSM could have also be looking at different other things, plays, objectives in a different order, context because they could have afforded to lose that series so why not experiment while you can before the Playoffs? Everyone already knows the TL-TSM buddy buddy situation so I don't need or want to dive into that as everyone already seems to know it by now " . ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Right here I clearly stated " Maybe they did throw that series to help TL, I wouldn't say they wouldn't - No,"
" Investigation I don't think there will be one because who's to say TSM actually didn't fix that series or helped TL win, but instead actually did try but just lost and got beat. ? It's too hard for Riot to actually do something. It's like having 0 proof or evidence you have no case or logic to stand on. I personally can't think of something to go on other than all 5 players not using runes or something other than that you have to base it on word of mouth and get it from the horses mouth themselves. " Bjergsen, Hauntzer, TSM players, did you guys throw that series on purpose" - " No"
" TSM members could have leaked twitter or personal logs to D-Lift or Steve etc so maybe Riot can find something there but even so if I would throw a series on purpose I wouldn't tell anyone that I was going to do so, but instead just not try as hard or as much in those specific games. Or maybe Reginald just walked up to Steve as LCS players play, hangout and are near the LCS stadium from Friday-Sunday and just told him in person instead of E-mailing or logs, twitter who knows". ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Most times whenever I want to find out why, when, how, where or what motives or what that person may or might do I put myself in their shoes. I stated " TSM members could have leaked twitter or personal logs(e-mails) to D-Lift or Steve etc, so maybe Riot can find something there".
" Overall do I think TSM lost the TL series on purpose yeah, I do honestly, do I think there will be an investigation, no".
" I am dealing with family members who genuinely believe in the main stream media is all lies, that pizzagate happened and that obama is coordinating a resistance of government moles against trump. I just don't understand why people chose to believe things in face of overwhelming evidences contrary to it ".
" Main stream media is all lies"
" Obama is coordinating a resistance of government moles against Trump"
" I just don't understand why people chose to believe things in face of overwhelming evidences contrary to it".
Hayes2 votesDoublelift retired then came back, not sure that counts as loaning.
kabuto yakaushi2 votesAs far as I'm aware, doublelift was under contract with TSM still. Therefore TSM would have to willingly end his contract for him to sign with team liquid for the remainder of the split.
If it was just a bad match that's one thing. My issue is that a potential pattern was shown. By canceling their contract with dlift tsm left one of the most valuable na talents open to competing offers over the summer, which shows that tsm is willing to risk a team advantage to help a competing orginization. If doibleift was still under contract, no other teams would be able to contact doibleift this off-season, therefore securing one of the better na adcs for their tryouts or however they wished to proceed.
Doubleluft has stated after the spring split he intends to return to tsm, to try out for spot. So canceling a contract, so a competing org can use a player for a single split, seems really close to a loan.
hotarse1 votesFirst, good on my mate Baku for speaking his mind even if the opinion is not popular. Upvotes from me. (I know you like them upvotes). Second, no it wouldn't be that hard for a team of LCS PROS to throw a game. It does not require acting. It isn't that hard to do. It doesn't even require explicitly telling a team to thrown. For all we know, Regi could have simply told his team. "So... Steve paid a lot of money for doublelift. A LOT of money." then Burger says, "I get it." Regi: "You get it?" Burger: "Yeah". The deal could have been done the same way. STEVE: I'm willing to pay A LOT to get out of relegations. You know that this is a LOT, right? (wink wink) Regi: Yeah it's a lot. STEVE: You better recognize that it's a lot. Know what I mean? Regi: Yeah. I get it.
I also believe that TSM threw. I believe that Karma will catch up to them for this. They will NOT win Spring Split, and may even fall to 3rd come qualifications for worlds.
BigBellBrute1 votesHere is the thing. The simple reality is that as long as these rent a player deals exist and aren't stopped by Riot, it is going to look bad regardless of whether any shenanigans went on in the match.
Riot needs to reserve the right to void any contract it deems not in the best interest of the game. And this is one they should void. In any case, it didn't work and Liquid is still in relegation.
hotarse1 votesHere is the thing. The simple reality is that as long as these rent a player deals exist and aren't stopped by Riot, it is going to look bad regardless of whether any shenanigans went on in the match.
Riot needs to reserve the right to void any contract it deems not in the best interest of the game. And this is one they should void. In any case, it didn't work and Liquid is still in relegation.
In this case it is working exactly how Andy and Peter want it to. Secret backdoor, tank team liquid out of the league once and for all.