Gragas Disabled for Rest of Worlds 2015

Riot·Oct 18, 2015·5 votes·90,261 views

After further investigations following the Gragas bug and remake during Game 2 of the Fnatic vs. EDG series, we have more information about how the bug works and the likelihood of it reoccurring. We know that champion disables are disruptive to team strategies and didn’t want to rush a disable when the exact cause and the likelihood of the bug occurring were unknown.

Having looked into this further and isolated the cause, we now know the bug is more likely to recur than we initially thought. We don’t want to endanger the integrity of the upcoming games or risk additional remakes, so we are are disabling Gragas for the remainder of the tournament. The bug is also reproducible on Lux and Ziggs, and so to be safe, we are disabling them for the remainder of the tournament.

We have chosen to do this at the end of Quarters and with a full week before Semis so that the teams will have time to adjust their strategies. We know that Gragas has been a high priority pick so far in Worlds and we want to make sure all four teams have the chance to adjust as necessary.

153 Comments

Cheddar MonkOct 18, 201530 votes

To all of the people getting pissy about Riot disabling champs due to bugs... They made a fair decision. Look at it this way.. There is a bug that prevents champions from casting abilities. Hence the Gragas q... IF everyone knows about this then that gives opportunity to play against it. If a player is going against Gragas and they know about the bug then whats to stop them from taking advantage of said bug. It causes an unfair advantage for anyone else that plays with Gragas in-game. To disable him now was a smart move before any games were decided based off that bug. To people like RITONERFMYSKILLZ; Lanthroviel; and kJs; Understand This is not the players/ teams' decision. This is Riot's game, they see a problem with a bug that can have a dramatic effect on everyone. Riot did the right thing by giving the best of the best teams of the world to adapt and to redevelop new strategies. Disabling Gragas is not going to break the meta, but leaving him in might break the game.

vyewOct 18, 20154 votes

Disabling Gragas is not going to break the meta

Not quite true. Elise, Rek'Sai and Gragas were the top 3 contested junglers. With Gragas removed, Red side will have to ban one or both of the last 2 remaining top tier junglers Elise / RekSai to prevent Blue side from completely denying Red side any top tier junglers by banning one and first picking the other. This will make the pick/ban phase worse for Red side as there are already a large number of champions that are highly contested: Gangplank, Mordekaiser and Lulu (over 90% pick/ban rates,) as well as Darius/Fiora in the top lane, Veigar in the mid lane and Tahm Kench in support.

Since it is likely that Elise and Reksai will both be banned by either team, second tier junglers (Lee Sin, Jarvan IV, Nidalee, Nunu) will come back into the Worlds meta.

vyewOct 18, 20151 votes

Also:

Gragas was the only top tier lategame scaling Cinderhulk tank jungler, because he has damage reduction, an AoE slow, %max HP damage and two sources of hard CC. By comparison, Rek'Sai is stronger in the early game and is a better fighter, but only has one AoE knockup for CC and no damage reduction or %HP damage. Elise is much stronger early game, but junglers at Worlds seem to be building Runeglaive on her for the damage and mana regen instead of Cinderhulk.

TriPodOreoOct 19, 20156 votes

if they ban it for EVERYONE then its fair. They're professionals gragas shouldnt be the only champion in their pool and besides its boring watching the same 3-4 junglers every game anyway

iamleburkOct 19, 20153 votes

It isn't fair because of the extra advantage it gives blue side

Golden MaliceOct 22, 20152 votes

Blue side wouldn't have as large of an advantage as you might think with the 2 "top tier" junglers. If they first pick Elise or Rek'Sai, then Red side can choose their entire bottom lane, IE: Tahm+Kalista, Thresh+Jinx, etc. The players at worlds should be far better players than those of us here. If I can think of a way to abuse an early blue jungle pick, they will find even better ways. Give the world's teams some credit. They aren't bronze 5 lackies. They are supposedly the best of the best.

BålOct 18, 20151 votes

but if one bans reksie wont the other team just ban Elise and then we get awesome new junglers! :D! i love it just as much as you i see xD

BJYetiOct 19, 20153 votes

No because blue can now just hold out on banning one of the top tier junglers and first pick them, while red has to make the sacrifice of either banning strategically against the other team or having to just straight ban OP champs

CornerPocketOct 19, 20155 votes

I feel like this can add MORE strategy to picks & bans, though. Red side can just decide to ban ONE of the OP champs and then ban Rek'sai or Elise. Then, they force Blue side into choosing between FPing the top tier jungler and giving red side both OP picks or FPing an OP pick and giving red side a top tier jungler AND one OP pick (Morde, GP, LuLu).

To me, it seems like this can create more banning diversity.

BZ5Oct 20, 20151 votes

That's why they chose this time. They give time to Teams to create new pick&ban strats.

And in my opinion your point is situational. Because if matches finish with 3-0 or 3-1 your point will not be very important because these scores means A Team win a match or 2 matches on the red side.

And also it's so ironic that the bug appeared in the match that Fnatic didn't ban the 2 op picks on the red side.

BZ5Oct 20, 20151 votes

And If a Team don't ban one of the op picks, They will be sure there first pick will be that champion. So the Teams can create game plans with prioritizing the Counter plays and counter picks against the champion. For example GP isn't the best split pusher in the game and his farming is very important So create a Lane swap situation and pick fiora, renekton, irelia because these champion could be huge against GP on a split push scenario.

YaoiYordleYiffOct 19, 20156 votes

I'm pretty sure the issue isn't that they disabled him instead of leaving him in, it's that they disabled him instead of hotfixing the bug or something. It seems like a pretty incompetent solution as a developer, this really shoudn't be happening unless they're incapable of figuring out how to fix the bug which is another thing that really shouldn't be happening. Riot is basically announcing "yeah we have no idea how to fix this one, sorry"

noxTokenOct 19, 201549 votes

This is an absurdly naive way to think. I don't know where people got this idea that bugs and defects can be fixed instantly. Hell, if you do not have exact instructions on how to replicate a bug, a development team may never be able to reproduce the bug in question.

A sizable code base with multiple developers writing code over many iterations of a product will have quirks. Developers are given a task, and as long as the code passes new tests, regressions tests, code review and user testing, then the code is considered valid. Even with these safeguards, developers can sometimes write code in such a way that causes unintended interactions that happen under very specific conditions. The code then needs to be refactored to fix the issue, pass the above review/tests and deployed. It sounds simple, but code is not magic. You don't always just look a few lines of code, think, "Oh there's the problem,", change a few lines and call it a day. That can happen for some bugs, but it's not always so easy.

I understand that Riot's code base is far from perfect. We've heard the same tired excuse of not being able to implement a feature due to how something was written. However, development is not wizardry. Code bases with thousands of lines of code can have an absurd amount of dependencies and coupling.This can make finding the source of a defect like finding a needling in a haystack.

b2412Oct 19, 201523 votes

As a fellow developer, logged in just to upvote and commend you for your well thought out and well written explanation.

Code doesn't fix itself overnight, especially when I guarantee you that there are developers (and probably quite a few of them) likely there at Worlds as part of the Referee/Integrity staff to make sure that when situations similar to this happen, the devs can indeed verify that the issue is something that is behaving contrary to the developer's implementation and intended purpose. Very similar to the Renekton stun call that came out during Groups. Someone has to know if a bug is indeed a bug, and not someone fucking up or mechanically impossible/possible action.

Plus, if quickfixing one bug causes 20 others to pop up which causes a revert to happen, or several more remakes to occur, the teams and the players and the fans will all get salty and get frustrated at having to essentially play extra rounds. Integrity of the game is important, and if sacrificing 3 champs out of a pool of hundreds fixes the problem until it can be fully examined and permanently fixed, then so be it.

KremallOct 19, 20158 votes

I also just logged in to upvote your explanation. People always expect magical wonders from us developers. Some things can't be done with just a hotfix. Also people should keep in mind that hotfixes are mostly untested and can create several more bugs, which is nothing you want to have during the most important tournament of the whole year. The fact that the same bug can be reproduced with multiple champions indicates that it isn't simply a bug within the ability itself, but possibly a game engine bug . And this is something you would never create a patch for without proper testing.

ZarremgregarrokOct 19, 20155 votes

If you check what the three champions have in common, it is the mechanic of throwing an object to world that you can detonate with another use of the ability. As that may be related to quite a lot other mechanics, I understand Riot's desire to test it properly instead of running with a hotfix.

tehdefOct 20, 20153 votes

This is an absurdly naive way to think.

Riot has stated that they can replicate this bug on multiple champions, which means it's reproducible.

They need to hotfix it. They have more than enough time for apply the fix, and see if it breaks anything. Despite the amount of code that goes into League (WoW has considerably more code and they hotfix all the time).

League is doing a disservice to the game and ensuring that Elise and Reksai become must pick/ban and that they've eliminated one of the BEST disengage junglers in the game, while also possessing the ability to separate a particular player from his team.

This is reckless and completely changes the outcome of Worlds, making it in my opinion, a joke. Regardless of winner, up to this point we will never know who truly would have won the tournament due to the removal of a champion that was picked or banned 33 times in 63 games.

Your Spiteful ExOct 21, 20154 votes

you rant is a joke, if any of those team are worth something, if they are truly the best then they can work around Gragas being disable or are you same that the teams in worlds are not good enough? as for " (WoW has considerably more code and they hotfix all the time)" then go play WoW no one is stoping you

Professor WardOct 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This is an absurdly naive way to think. I don't know where people got this idea that bugs and defects can be fixed instantly. Hell, if you do not have exact instructions on how to replicate a bug, a development team may never be able to reproduce the bug in question.

except for the fact that they stated that they know exactly what did it and how to replicate it not only on gragas, but on lux and ziggs as well... try clicking the link

DamnNewbieOct 21, 20153 votes

100% Yes. Of course a hotfix would have been ideal, but they obviously decided that since it was not easily fixable to take the safe route. This way another more severe bug is not introduced for the world championship games with millions on the line.

floatingpixleOct 22, 20151 votes

the problem actually lies with the methodology of their Dev QA process, i'm almost certain of it.

proper T.D.D can really help some of these problems - BUT its something you have to start with, you cant become a TDD shop mid way through a project.

and as a JSP/Spring developer. nothing is more important to me then writing tests.

ulie loveOct 19, 20152 votes

It's not the disabling of gragas that is the problem, the problem is that red side has a very big T1 jungle disadvantage due to the bug.

BrainiacOutcastOct 18, 201521 votes

I'm glad to see you guys pulled the trigger and allowed teams time to adapt instead of hesitating about whether you want to disable them or not and doing it at the last minute or, even worse, waiting for the next occurrence to disable him (and the others).

Claire KnattOct 19, 20159 votes

How in the hell is this making as big a ripple as it is? It's a game with over 100 champs; code is going to act in weird ways, some situations weren't accounted for, etc. Riot is only human here. Shouldn't have to pay for that when they're actively trying to figure to a solution. We have a literal gamebreaker here with Gragas, and if they messed up on a hotfix because they rushed to meet a week deadline, there's gonna be a ton of hoopla on that.

As for disabling rather than fixing, shit is not always that quick and easy to do. I can't even begin to imagine the coding and such that goes into this game. Would we come to an immediate decision as to how to react if, say, aliens invaded? We have an obvious problem there, shouldn't the solution be as apparent?

Now, alternate case, they figure how to fix this in due time and lift the disable. That's not gonna hurt anything, these people already know how to play Gragas, they just also know how to use other junglers if need be. If these teams cannot figure a way to play outside the meta as well as in, why in hell are they at Worlds? This isn't talking about casual players of Gragas who never dicked around with another jungler for some reason. While meta is what you want, you must be prepared to go outside of it as well if you are confident and cunning enough to make it work.

If someone blames their loss on no Gragas? For one, not even a testable thing to claim unless a rematch is arranged, and second, at the risk of sounding heartless...shit happens. Would it suck? Yeah, it would. I know they're playing here for money, but I highly doubt they devote so much time and effort into the game if they didn't also love it. The first thing you learn is to roll with the wins and losses, as you likely start out in the solo queue. Even if you didn't, nobody here has a 100% win rate against other players. Not happening.

Social Justice 1Oct 18, 20157 votes

REMAKE WORLDS

JurasiqueOct 18, 20155 votes

dont know why everyone thinks red has to ban elise/gp/morde. dont ban any of them. force blue to ban them or give you 2/3 op picks. this actually gives red side an advantage over how it was

Ns51Ix08sFOct 18, 20151 votes

What are you talking about? Why would blue team ban away an OP pick (GP, Elise, Morde, etc.) when they can first pick it? The only reason they would ban it is if they don't pick it up first.

TheorcheroOct 18, 20158 votes

Because smart teams when on the red side will leave open a total of 3 op picks, so the blue team picks one and the red team gets two. The only other option Blue team has is to start banning other OP picks immediately to avoid the 1/2 scenario, which leaves Red team more bans available for target banning.

ArcaniteReaperOct 18, 20152 votes

Nope. Elise is strong, but she is not strong to the point of letting blue team get GP.

Gangplank hard counters Morde too so its saying basically, "I'll give you Elise and Mordekaiser yes, but then i will first pick Gankplank and utterly shutdown your "adc"."

ThEscape ArtistOct 19, 20152 votes

So don't pick Morde if they pick GP?

Milan TakoyakiOct 19, 20152 votes

Then ban GP and leave everyone else up. You can deal with Morde with the right set up and vision for dragon.

OrangOct 19, 20156 votes

"Or you just leave all the OP champs up and use you mechanics as pro players to beat the other team" -No One Ever

SmilesCureAllOct 19, 20152 votes

Ahem.....Faker...Olaf...mid...I would also recommend LCK spring with the yi/irelia pick, but then again who hasn't mentioned that already

ThEscape ArtistOct 19, 20154 votes

I love how all these yahoos think they have a thorough understanding of each and every one of these teams' strategies, and is an expert in pick and ban phase. Riot did their job, they disabled what doesn't work. Cry more please.

TurquoiseYoshiOct 18, 20153 votes

That's incredibly important. It'll be very, very interesting to watch KOO vs FNC now, because of Reignover's favoritism of tank junglers. He might get banned away, and the team might have to resort to putting Huni on a tank and Reignover on Olaf.

YCitizenSnipsYOct 18, 20151 votes

doubt it will that big of an impact on that series. Rek'sai can still be built tank, Elise can still be built tank, as well as Lee sin. Also Olaf isn't exactly built as a glass cannon either. Pretty sure that since people are hyping them as a potential winner of the tournament that they should be able to figure something out with a weeks advance on this information.

Ins0mulousOct 18, 20152 votes

Actually I think this fucks over Fnatic alot, its going to force a ban on either elise or rek'sai considering there are the only two S tier junglers now Elise RekSai . Knowing Hojin only plays elise and lee sin well, you know they are going to ban rek'sai and force fnatic either to give Elise or GP for first pick, because champs like TahmKench Veigar Lulu Mordekaiser Azir Kennen are still going to draw bans, and trust me, as much as I love Huni, he will get bent over and repeatedly fucked if they let Smeb first pick GP.

YCitizenSnipsYOct 19, 20152 votes

Nah they have played against the likes of Rek'sai and Elise plenty throughout the tournament. I don't think they have to worry about banning those out against KOO especially since Hojin didn't look spectacular during the series with KT. FNC just needs to worry about banning priority picks. I would hope by this late in the tournament they would have some plan for common picks like that, I also hope that Huni has a play for Smeb's Fiora if they don't ban that from him.

RelegateOct 18, 20153 votes

There's so much hate going around about the disable. I for one am quite excited. This means that we might see some unique picks in the jungle as the junglers' champion pools could be put to the test with a few directed bans. I feel the best teams are those who can adapt the quickest to change, and this is quite a noteworthy change. :)

ModCaptainMårvelousOct 18, 20152 votes

So do you at LEAST know the cause of the bug now?

Wurfus MaximusOct 18, 20152 votes

will Gragas/Lux/Ziggs also be disabled in our ranked games in soloqueue?

dzkmaidenOct 18, 20151 votes

the pros are playing on patch 5.18 and we currently are on 5.20 ps: sorry for my bad english

ShapeshifterOct 18, 20155 votes

The bug exists in both patches, that's irrelevant.

Milan TakoyakiOct 19, 20152 votes

I see a lot of people saying this gives blue side a huge advantage now, I completely disagree. Say you ban Rek'sai but you leave Elise, GP, and Morde unbanned on red. That means you have the potential to trade 2 for 1 since you pick twice on red side. This could very well finally force blue side to ban the must bans for once and enable a more clean draft. This could have the potential to make the pick/bans more interesting now that it has gotten a bit stale. I would happily trade Elise for Morde and GP, Morde and Lulu, Lulu and GP, etc etc. Although this is really unfortunate because Gragas has been a huge pick, it has the potential to even out the pick/ban advantage that blue side has so clearly had.

1MazaOct 19, 20152 votes

Let's work with those 4 champs you gave.

Red bans Rek'sai, Blue picks GP, GP solo carries the game because he's broken as shit.
Red bans GP, Blue picks Mord, congrats Red you now have 2 junglers to choose from, good luck using both of them. (aka Blue gets the other anyway)
Red bans Mord, Blue picks GP, GP solo carries the game because.. well you should get it by now.

Milan TakoyakiOct 19, 20152 votes

Ban GP, leave everything else open. Build a siege comp, something Morde really struggles with. It's not the horror story many are pretending it is.

CornerPocketOct 19, 20152 votes

Scenario 2 isn't quite the right scenario. In that one, you would ban GP and Elise or Reksai.... maybe even Lee Sin/Nidalee as well, leaving them with only one choice for a top-tier jungler. Then, if they choose Morde, you get a top tier jungler AND LuLu and they don't.

Meanie40Oct 21, 20151 votes

I'm pretty sure everyone instalocks GP there (on blue side), happily.

The CarryologistOct 19, 20152 votes

Thank you for doing this the right way riot. Whether or not people agree with this disable, you did it with minimal hesitation, and that's what will allow worlds to go on without a ripple of anger by disabling Gragas last second, or annoyance by not disabling Gragas and having a repeat of the bug. Well done. RITO PLS CONTINUE TO DO THINGS CORRECTLY