WTF Na LCS

Yxgl222HaX·Jul 26, 2015·4 votes·2,126 views

Okay ive been watching LCS for ages now. In every region like say korea you see sk play jin air youre like okay sk will win this one, in EU any time fnatic plays you can assume theyre going to win, you can assume that unicorns will win about half their matches along with roccat sk and gambit all being around mid ladder level with unicorns pulling up upset wins then losing to scrub teams. But when you take a look at Na lcs you just sorta sit there and be like... okay statistically this team SHOULD win, i mean they have better players statistically ... but once the games start it all goes to hell. Tsm loses to a cloud 9 that lost to an upset yesterday WITH A COUNTER COMP. Trying to predict who will win in na you may as well just flip a coin at this point.

41 Comments

TurquoiseYoshiJul 26, 20156 votes

And that's why it's fun.

LeeDarkJul 27, 20153 votes

That's what happens when all the teams are good, instead of just a couple of star teams consistently dominating a bunch of losers.

TaredomJul 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That's what happens when all the teams are good, instead of just a couple of star teams consistently dominating a bunch of losers.

I feel the opposite actually, and it makes me sad. If you look at Fnatic, sure they stomp everyone, but that's because they truly seem to be in a league of their own and it shows, same for SKT. The teams that they're beating seem to be on or slightly above the same level as our top teams, not saying our top teams aren't good, it just feels like they're slipping.

I suppose we'll have to see what happens in playoffs and then in worlds, but I'm not too confident NA is going to do so hot this year. (Although I still strongly feel like TSM will be representing us, mostly because they operate far better in a best of 5.)

MinrogJul 29, 20152 votes

I don't want TSM to represent NA. We don't need another 1-5 group phase with Santorin farming Krugs while Dyrus gets tower dove top. I hope somebody who has a chance at worlds makes it.

TaredomJul 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't want TSM to represent NA. We don't need another 1-5 group phase with Santorin farming Krugs while Dyrus gets tower dove top. I hope somebody who has a chance at worlds makes it.

I respect that, but who do you consider having a chance? CLG is looking pretty good I suppose (for once, let's see how long that lasts); TiP has all sorts of crap going on; Dignitas, love em to pieces, doesn't stand a chance; Liquid would be interesting, they've continued to amaze me; and Gravity just got shat on by our bottom tier team, so Idk what to even think about them (great team though.) Not saying TSM is any better, but I feel like they're more suited for this format.

LeeDarkJul 29, 20154 votes

I think Liquid is the most exciting team in the NA right now, and their first place standing just proves that. Ever since they got the kinks worked out after bringing Piglet over, they've been looking just phenomenal. Quas may not be a shiny carry top laner like Zion or Impact, but he is definitely a solid, consistent performer. Piglet now looks every bit the world champion he used to be, and Fenix is just amazeballs. He very quickly became my favorite mid laner in the NA. Dominate has always been on of the best junglers in the LCS; he was plagued by a couple of prominent issues in previous seasons, but he has matured and now his skill and strategy shine through. And speaking of strategy, there aren't many pro players with the kind of game knowledge Xpecial has. Most of the ones who do are now coaching instead of playing, so if anybody can compete with him, it would only be LemonNation.

MinrogAug 1, 20151 votes

I feel like the best shots are Team Liquid and Team Impulse, as far as having a good enough skillcap to compete. The only hitch with TL is I think their late game shot calling needs work; they make bad trades, get lazy on calls, and sometimes just pull back for like 15-20 minutes when they could have rolled the game if they played LoL by the numbers. That's on Dom, but I think he knows about it and hopefully they get it worked out as we move into Bo5's.

I'm not sure what happened to Gravity, and TSM is just too passive in every game. I like a good map control/objective focused team if it's done right (like the way Jin-Air Greenwings was doing a while back), but TSM is giving up objectives and vision to their opponents. Waiting for a miracle from-behind team fight in every game isn't a viable strategy.

I want Doublelift to get a shot at worlds. I've liked him for years and I always sort of root for CLG, hoping they can make something happen. I just don't trust that it will anymore.

NoMonkuJul 29, 20151 votes

I am fine with it mainly because teams like C9 and TSM were so dominant before that when they went to worlds, they basically face planted because they had nothing to compete against. Also shifts in the meta I feel hurt TSM a lot harder then other teams because while Dyrus is a good top laner, imo he isn't a carry top laner compared to Impact or Zion or Quas, which is hurting them. Also they usually leave him out to dry and in the current meta, the top laner is the carry.

TaredomJul 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I am fine with it mainly because teams like C9 and TSM were so dominant before that when they went to worlds, they basically face planted because they had nothing to compete against. Also shifts in the meta I feel hurt TSM a lot harder then other teams because while Dyrus is a good top laner, imo he isn't a carry top laner compared to Impact or Zion or Quas, which is hurting them. Also they usually leave him out to dry and in the current meta, the top laner is the carry.

I agree with the Dyrus part, can't think of a single game where he wasn't left to fend for himself while Santorin was farming >.> The problem I see happening is that (at least from what I can tell) while teams like Gravity and TiP (before all of the BS with them hit the fan) are getting better, teams like TSM and C9 are unraveling at the seams. I like how exciting everything has been but when you see the top teams losing to the bottom teams and upsets happening everywhere, it tears down your confidence. I was feeling pretty alright with Gravity at the top of the pack until they lost to TDK, now I just don't know what to think.

NA is just inconsistent right now and I feel like whatever team does make it to worlds will fall hard to some of the other regions more consistent top teams.

LeeDarkJul 29, 20151 votes

That isn't at all reflected by most of the NA teams' actual performances at international events. They have a few notable slip-ups, but, by and large, they make a good showing no matter who goes. SKT is the only team truly in a league of their own; they could go to any region and have perfect or near-perfect seasons. Fnatic would do well in the NA LCS, but they absolutely wouldn't be a dominating force like they are in Europe.

LazerFruitJul 29, 20152 votes

you are joking right? at this point Fnatic would probably do better in NA then in EU, and no im not a fanboy by any means, literally no team in NA is on FNatics level, except maybe TL and CLG could challenge them

LeeDarkJul 29, 20151 votes

Fnatic only managed a 4-6 record at MSI. NA sent TSM, which is clearly not even close to the best team in the NA anymore. They put up a good fight, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that the top five NA teams wouldn't consistently take games from them. Fnatic could be in a fight for first place here, but as we saw the past couple of weeks, quite a few teams were in that exact same fight.

Ale non è maleJul 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Fnatic only managed a 4-6 record at MSI. NA sent TSM, which is clearly not even close to the best team in the NA anymore. There isn't any team that has consistently proven to be the best team in NA, though, week by week the standings changed and TSM at a certain point were even in this split the best team in NA or in top2 anyway, so this argument is really invalid Fnatic would be dominating NA even more than what they have dominating Eu, really

OnegarionJul 29, 20151 votes

Thats MSI and they went 3-2 against UoL in spring finals. This isn't the same fnatic squad as they were. Fnatic have improved greatly since MSI. Don't act like it even mattered and on top of that they went against the top 2 teams in the world in SKT and EDG. It also had AHq which is considered a top 10 team by many. It doesn't surprise me at all that they left with that record. When you take that many great teams and put them into 1 game someone has to have games taken off of them. AHq is still strong and expected to do very well at worlds. So don't make it seem like they went 4-6 against shit teir team.s

LeeDarkJul 30, 20151 votes

Fnatic has not improved that much. They just look like they have because they are back at home playing against the crapfest we call the most of the rest of the EU LCS.

LazerFruitJul 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Fnatic only managed a 4-6 record at MSI. NA sent TSM, which is clearly not even close to the best team in the NA anymore. They put up a good fight, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that the top five NA teams wouldn't consistently take games from them. Fnatic could be in a fight for first place here, but as we saw the past couple of weeks, quite a few teams were in that exact same fight.

MSI Fnatic and current Fnatic are VERY different teams, current TL and CLG wouldnt have a a much different record at MSI, just wouldnt have lost as bad

LeeDarkJul 30, 20151 votes

You're free to pretend whatever you like. I'll deal with the facts as they are presented in reality. Fnatic MSI is their most recent international performance. TSM performed poorly, but they aren't even close to being the best team in the NA anymore. Fnatic hasn't changed that much; still the same people. TSM hasn't changed much either.

Have fun in your little Euro fantasy.

Gaxx DJul 30, 20151 votes

Talk about being delusional, eh? It's quite the contrary - no NA team would do well in EU, and the entire EU LCS would be contender for the top spots in NA (maybe with exception of SK, current CW was actually on the rise after they got rid of youngbuck and unlimited). NA is currently the most shittiest major region, by far. But keep dreaming bud.

LeeDarkJul 30, 20151 votes

Except the facts don't agree with that. MSI showed Fnatic on an international stage. TSM also appeared there. Fnatic was obviously better than TSM--no argument there. But MSI remains the only comparison we have to evaluate any EU team against any NA team. Fnatic is the best of the EU, and while they were better than TSM, they still ended up losing. TSM isn't even close to the best NA team.

Delusional is not facing reality. So far, I'm the only one actually using something that happened in reality to evaluate the teams. Get lost, Eurotrash.

Gaxx DJul 30, 20151 votes

Riiiight, because all of the NA teams did so well against EU teams, eh? Besides all you need is game knowledge, to realize how many mistakes NA teams do (and I know quite a few silver elo players that possess game knowledge, just aren't good enough playing the game to go higher - apparently it's not the case with you), and how other NA teams can't capitalize on those mistakes. Their strategic level is horrible, mechanical skill is shit, and they can't close out games. Anyway, that "eurotrash" just shows, that you're nothing else but a twitch troll, so your opinion basically means nothing.

LeeDarkJul 31, 20151 votes

You're the one pretending all these EU second rate teams that Fnatic uses for practice have actually played against NA teams. We can only compare Fnatic to TSM, since they played at MSI. Then we compare the EU to Fnatic and the NA to TSM. The results speak for themselves. The rest of the EU sucks compared to Fnatic, and most of the NA is better than TSM. That's all there is to it. Twitch trolls are the Eurotrash like you who can't accept reality.

Kal Vas FlamJul 28, 20152 votes

More even the teams the less predictable the outcome. It's like a Yankees vs Red Sox game in the mid 2000's when both teams were giants and their games would turn into massive clutch plays one after another. I'm not even a fan of either team but LOVED watching those games. Even TDK is showing that they're a good team, it just took them a long time to find their groove this season. Other regions have good teams across as well, but their elite tier players are condensed down much more into a handful of teams. NA has their top tier players spread out a lot more across the teams.

Gaxx DJul 28, 20151 votes

Oh wowowow. You really have no idea what you're talking about, are you? In EU 2 best ADCs are in teams that ended up at the bottom (Gambit with Forgiven and CW with Freeze). Jankos, who's easily top 3 jungler in EU is in Roccat, 5th place team. Svenskeren and Freddy from SK gaming are also great players. Pepiinero from Giants (6th place) is a top tier mid laner. Froggen (7th place Elements), another international level mid laner. LCK - basically every team from 1-6 has great players, and SaSin from SBENU (10th place) is an amazing mid laner as well. Not to mention LPL, where superstars are spread around the entire league. All of these players are also heads and shoulders above "top tier players from NA", with very few exceptions. Please, don't talk bs, if you don't watch other leagues.

MinrogJul 29, 20153 votes

Forg1ven is only great on 2 champions, Graves and Lucian. With such a limited champion pool it is hard to justify calling him one of the best ADC's in his region. Freeze is in Elo hell, so on that I guess I agree. Rekkles is my vote for best ADC in EU, he's seems a lot like Deft atm in that he's in a supportive/safe role for the team.

Froggen is terrible and has been for a couple of years. How many times is Alliance/Elementz going to change their whole roster besides him and still end up being awful. Compare him to xPeke, Pawn, Dade or even Easyhoon and he's just not there. He waits until the 45 minute mark before he is willing to play the game, hasn't aged well. Pepiinero>Froggen, at least he can win the game if he gets going.

It's not like NA/EU LCS are lacking in stars and World Champions, either. I mean half of them are Korean, just like in the LCK/LPL. It's only the current generation from SSW/SSB that migrated to LPL, still got Huni/Impact/Piglet/Move/Rush ect owning games.

Gaxx DJul 29, 20151 votes

Yeah, that's typical. Plays in the best team, so he's gotta be the best on his position. Wrong. Forgiven mechanical skill and his positioning - 2 most important things for an adc - is out of this world. It's just that, Gambit played the "carry top laner meta", and instead of bumping resources into him, they wanted Cabochard to carry (and in the end how did that work? They're in relegations). My point is, they acquired a superstar, and never treated him like a carry. SK was playing different, though they were a one dimensional team, and for their playstyle both lucian and graves were working the best. It's not like Forgiven couldn't position or cs with other adcs - he's a monster on anything. Rekkles is a great adc, I don't deny that, BUT he plays for the best team in his region AND has one of the best supports in the world. Froggen is terrible when it comes to managing his team. I never thought that replacing your entire team over and over again is a good thing, but you can't deny his game knowledge, mechanical skill and teamfighting prowess, which is on international level. He still can dance with the best. And dade is the most inconsistent mid laner that's ever been born, so this is really a bad comparison. Yes, his heights were really high, but his lows were also very low. And I'm sorry, but since when half of EU stars are Koreans? Huni and Reignover are the only ones, and if you're thinking of Ryu, he's in the bottom 6 of EU midlaners.

MinrogJul 29, 20152 votes

Forg1ven was being propped up hard when he was on SK Gaming, by both Svens/NRated. It worked up until they ran into the top tier teams at IEM Kato. You can't keep your support and jungler locked into the bot lane for 20 minutes, and it's dependent on getting specific champions.

Forg1ven's games with Caitlynn/Corki are hit and miss inconsistent. The Gambit move was dumb for both teams and players involved, but the overall game changes hurt Forg1ven's preferred champions even back in Spring split. He still gets farmed up, but he isn't having much impact on the game.

Rekkles is in the same position that Forg1ven is, with a top-centric focused team strat. Yellowstar roams a lot like Edward does, leaving Rekkles to go it alone. My opinion re: skill level is mostly related to the massive improvement he was compared to Steelback. Dropping Rekkles into that team was a huge upgrade for them, which is tough to do no matter with LCS team you swap to.

All the good EU teams have 2 Koreans on them. That's the right answer yes?

Ale non è maleJul 29, 20151 votes

All the good EU teams have 2 Koreans on them. That's the right answer yes?

That's completely wrong Actually only Fnatic has 2 Koreans (YellowStar has French nationality and play in Europe since he was on aaa in S1 so I wouldn't count him as Korean) H2k has only 1 Korean which is Ryu, Orgien has 0, UoL had 0 before Kikis left and now have 1 which is one of the two substitute junglers they picked up to replace him (he'll probably starts)c , Roccat has 0 starters and 1 substitute, Giants has 0 Koreans, the other EU LCS teams have 0 Koreans too

LazerFruitJul 29, 20151 votes

It was a joke because Fnatic went 18-0 with 2 koreans(huni and reighnover)

Ale non è maleJul 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It was a joke because Fnatic went 18-0 with 2 koreans(huni and reighnover)

This is not a joke that NA fans can afford to do with the amount of import players all their teams have, though

LazerFruitJul 29, 20151 votes

i watch EU just as much as i watch NA

Ale non è maleJul 30, 20151 votes

And? Joking on the fact that good EU teams have 2 Koreans (implying Fnatic is the only good team when they are not), when the other top teams that would very well compete with top NA teams have 0 or 1 import while ALL the top teams in NA have at least 1 or more import players is a bad joke and only ridicules who did the joke

Gaxx DJul 29, 20151 votes

Yeah, now you're just talking bs. Only 1 team has 2 koreans which is 66% of koreans present in EU LCS. Anyway, this isn't an adc meta, I realize it. Even best of the best weren't able to consistently carry their teams to victories (Uzi, Imp, Deft also isn't the main carry for EDG). And it's even harder to carry, when your team just ignores you and puts their resources on other lane. If Gambit wanted a bitch adc, they shoulda taken Steelback. And Rekkles looks great, because the entire team looks great. People just don't realize, that just because a team is absolutely the best in the region, it doesn't necesarilly mean that the players are also the best in their positions. Rekkles is TOP3 adc in EU, but he's far from being the best.

MinrogAug 1, 20151 votes

It's extremely difficult to judge how good an ADC is when the team is consistently getting it's teeth kicked in. There are a few cases, like with Sneaky and Freeze, where their individual skill is obvious but mostly they are just canaries in the coal mine.

I've thought about your statement regarding top 3 in EU and I still think Rekkles deserves the top billing. Freeze and Niels are my other two in the top 3, but neither of them have the level of experience that Rekkles does. I don't think Hjarnan/Candypanda/Adryh are there yet (yes I know I will get flak for not bowing down to Hjarnan as my new overloard).

RE: the joke, I'm simply parroting the EU casters who act like Fnatic is the only team worth talking about. As you can see from my profile I'm a UoL fan, even with the stuff they do sometimes, so it's not like I'm into that NA vs EU stuff.

Deft, yeah he's sort of like a super-charged Steelback as far as his role on the team. EDG is the Pawn show, and these last few weeks they have looked so much like 2014 Samsung White I'm worried for everyone else at Worlds.

Ale non è maleJul 29, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gaxx D,realm=EUW,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=0EM39Lc1,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-29T08:11:42.324+0000)

Yeah, that's typical. Plays in the best team, so he's gotta be the best on his position. Wrong. Forgiven mechanical skill and his positioning - 2 most important things for an adc - is out of this world. It's just that, Gambit played the "carry top laner meta", and instead of bumping resources into him, they wanted Cabochard to carry (and in the end how did that work? They're in relegations). My point is, they acquired a superstar, and never treated him like a carry.

Wrong. Actually, Gambit and Elements problem has just being putting too much resources in their stars (Forg1ven/Froggen) rather than develop other strategies. It is almost an entire season that this strategy do not work, heck, even on TSM with Bjergsen it isn't really working anymore Forg1ven is the DoubleLift of EU LCS, just better on teamfights, but still a player which huge ego does not help the team because if it is not winning it leads to attrition between the players

Gaxx DJul 29, 20151 votes

I think you mistook Gambit with SK. He hasn't been getting nearly enough, to be able to carry games, they put much more focus on Cabochard. Elements problem isn't putting too much resouorces into Froggen, in fact they have no designated carry, and that's their problem - they're playing solo queue, which is honestly tiring to watch, and doesn't work. Also, comparing Forgiven to Doublelift is just wrong. For starters, what Doublelift says has to be done, Forgiven had no voice in Gambit, he wasn't their shotcaller, captain, startegist. He had to play around Gambit the entire split, whereas Gambit just ignored him. Or rather, didn't recognize him as a carry. And hell, I don't even like his toxic ass, but I do realize how good he is. Hopefully for him, he'll find a team that lets him carry in the next season.

Ale non è maleJul 29, 20152 votes

Nope, it happened with Gambit too. They started to handle resources to Cabochard when they figured it out that this isn't an ADC carry meta and even a star ADC like Forg1ven is he can't carry consistently games (and as you point out it is not Forg1ven problem, even godlike players like Uzi Imp and Deft aren't actually carrying that much)...the problem for them is that Cabochard isn't that good and thus Gambit remained a middle of the table team since Betsy is no carry at all too (well, he is really bottom tier for EU LCS scene)...and heck, if it wasn't for Forg1ven suspension they would have still probably ended 5th and in the playoffs, which given Origen arrival in LCS mean that they probably improved anyway from spring split Elements problem is that Froggen doesn't try to keep the team joint together when they are getting in trouble, but he just rip the other team members apart and so they lost faith in theirselves, lost communication and just start to get outplayed by the other teams. They went from 1st place to 7th after the KabuM loss happened not because they suffered loss of talent (Kev1n and Krepo aren't/weren't very different level from Wickd and Nyph which were also disappointing in Alliance latest tournaments and always the weakest members of the team) by this alone, and Froggen didn't do anything except worsening the situation and keep changin people around him without trying to be a better teammate

MinrogAug 1, 20151 votes

Honestly, I think that loss to Kabum put Froggen on permanent tilt. If you watch the Kabum game again you can see him diving into the enemy team alone (on Fizz) with no one to help him. I also think mid-laning shot callers pretty much always underperform when the two teams are close in skill level. The mechanics required need too much concentration and they start missing calls. Much prefer jungle or support shot-caller.

LazerFruitJul 29, 20151 votes

Full roster TDK was always good, just never could close, and NA is the most inconsistent region by far, we have good players, but nothing near other regions except a select few from top tier teams

skyfall619Jul 26, 20151 votes

That's how it's supposed to be bro

ponkzyJul 29, 20151 votes

because tsm is complete shit right now, every player is underperforming

IcyPepperJul 29, 20151 votes

And why is this a bad thing?

I'd rather teams with a good shot at winning fight tooth and nail than watch an entire season of one team just dominating. Where's the fun in knowing who's going to win when you can be at the edge of your seat and enjoying the tension?