So in these patch notes there is an Ashe buff and the person writing the context blurb refers to her as a marksperson. Why not just say marksman? That's how it's supposed to be and always has been.
Also, why are comments disabled on news posts now?
Hethalean3 votesPC culture is my guess. It isn't stewardess. It is flight attendant.
Modi2 votesSo in these patch notes there is an Ashe buff and the person writing the context blurb refers to her as a marksperson. Why not just say marksman? That's how it's supposed to be and always has been.
Why does it matter how they refer to the roles? Does it somehow diminish the role by using a gender neutral word?
LightningShado2 votesWhy does it matter how they refer to the roles? Does it somehow diminish the role by using a gender neutral word?
Here's the thing. Marksmen IS gender neutral. Marksperson is just a made up word that SEEMS more gender neutral.
Modi1 votesHere's the thing. Marksmen IS gender neutral. Marksperson is just a made up word that SEEMS more gender neutral.
Marksmen is actually a masculine word. While there exists no gender neutral, nor other gendered similar word in the dictionary, that does not make the word that does exist gender neutral.
Interesting, though, that in a fictional universe littered with made up words, the one you take offense to is the one that is being used as a gender neutral noun in the patch notes.
LightningShado2 votesMarksmen is actually a masculine word. While there exists no gender neutral, nor other gendered similar word in the dictionary, that does not make the word that does exist gender neutral.
Interesting, though, that in a fictional universe littered with made up words, the one you take offense to is the one that is being used as a gender neutral noun in the patch notes.
Markperson is actually not even a made up word for the lore of the game, it's just a made up word in the English language and yes, marksmen is gender neutral because it applies to all MEN, including WOMEN and MEN. Man is basically just a shortened version of the word human. Look it up. I'll help you: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/man
AugustHeatHaze1 votesMarkperson is actually not even a made up word for the lore of the game, it's just a made up word in the English language and yes, marksmen is gender neutral because it applies to all MEN, including WOMEN and MEN. Man is basically just a shortened version of the word human. Look it up. I'll help you: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/man
are you under the impression that words are mined from word mines and come naturally from the earth?
LightningShado2 votesare you under the impression that words are mined from word mines and come naturally from the earth?
No. That makes no sense.
AugustHeatHaze1 votesyou think there are words that aren't made up, where do you think these words come from? Are they mined from the word mines or perhaps they are grown lovingly in gardens and then dug up covered in topsoil?
LightningShado1 votesyou think there are words that aren't made up, where do you think these words come from? Are they mined from the word mines or perhaps they are grown lovingly in gardens and then dug up covered in topsoil?
I see your point, but preexisting words are already there for us to use and if a word is as clear and shortened as possible in a given context, there is no reason to change the word or use a different one. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
AugustHeatHaze1 votesi dont actually think we need to change marksmen to marksperson i really don't care but yall need to stop freaking the fuck out whenever someone chooses to use something besides marksmen, people in there various freak out threads look like old ladies clutching thier pearls because of this new rock music is teaching thier kids to love satan.
Language is fluid and changes all the time, if someone wants to use marksperson instead of marksman it is going to hurt no one
LightningShado1 votesi dont actually think we need to change marksmen to marksperson i really don't care but yall need to stop freaking the fuck out whenever someone chooses to use something besides marksmen, people in there various freak out threads look like old ladies clutching thier pearls because of this new rock music is teaching thier kids to love satan.
Language is fluid and changes all the time, if someone wants to use marksperson instead of marksman it is going to hurt no one
Ok. I agree.
AugustHeatHaze1 votesoh god you are the only person ive found who is reasonable
thanks for not saying changing marksperson from marksman is a slippery slope to arresting people
Pandemic Punch1 votesActually, people in the UK are being arrested or taken to court for saying the wrong pronouns. One particular case involves a man telling a male to female trans, "all right geezer". Which is basically the same thing as saying "alright 'dude'". The man thought the trans was a man and had to go to court over that one comment. It was considered a hate speech crime for implying "dude" or "man" to a man who identifies as a woman. The man went to court twice, was fined, two year restraining order, and got a community service sentence.
That isn't unreasonable, that is reality. He actually wound up in a prison cell temporarily for that one comment while not meaning any offense at all because he thought he was talking to a man.
AugustHeatHaze1 votesyea honestly i don't believe you and you need to give me a source, im very sure if he got a restraining order there was much more than accidentally calling a trans woman geezer
so put up or shut up
AugustHeatHaze1 votesAfter doing research, maybe he harassed her maybe he didn't, also he didn't go to jail he got 150 hours community service and was fined £360 and then he was acquitted because there wasn't enough evidence
if you read the article there was more accusations than "all right geezer" it sounds like there were 3 incidents that if true would make me think the case should be upheld but there isn't enough evidence that I can find online for me to tell if they happened or not.
There is not an epidemic of people being arrested for accidentally misgendering people in the uk, this was one case and he was acquitted, so clearly you aren't going to be arrested unless you go out to harass trans people and are enough of a pillock for there to be undeniable evidence of it happening.
So what does this tell us? you do not have to worry about being jailed for life or at all because you accidentally misgender a trans person, in this case it only went to court because there were other evidence and accusations.
if someone corrects you about your pronouns all you have to do to avoid something like this happening is say "oh sorry I didn't know" or somesuch and I garuntee you will be fine.
Anyway even if gullon made all this up, she is just one trans person, please don't let one bad person bias you against a whole group of people, just like you might say to not let one racist white person bias you against all white people.
related stewart lee video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_JCBmY9NGM&feature=youtu.be
Modi1 votesMarkperson is actually not even a made up word for the lore of the game, it's just a made up word in the English language and yes, marksmen is gender neutral because it applies to all MEN, including WOMEN and MEN. Man is basically just a shortened version of the word human. Look it up. I'll help you: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/man
Just because the subject of a word is intended to be used to all genders, does not mean the word itself is nongendered. Yes, marksmen can refer to a group of males, females, or other combinations of genders, but the word itself is gendered masculine, by the inclusion of the masculine part "men". Human, and its Latin base homo (as in homo sapiens), are both masculine words, which have come to be used to refer to all genders.
The beauty of language today, is they are constantly changing. They're are new "words" added to the dictionary every year: https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/new-words-in-the-dictionary-september-2018
Finally, just relax, it's a goddamned word in patch notes for a fictional universe.
LightningShado1 votesJust because the subject of a word is intended to be used to all genders, does not mean the word itself is nongendered. Yes, marksmen can refer to a group of males, females, or other combinations of genders, but the word itself is gendered masculine, by the inclusion of the masculine part "men". Human, and its Latin base homo (as in homo sapiens), are both masculine words, which have come to be used to refer to all genders.
The beauty of language today, is they are constantly changing. They're are new "words" added to the dictionary every year: https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/new-words-in-the-dictionary-september-2018
Finally, just relax, it's a goddamned word in patch notes for a fictional universe.
I'm relaxed. I asked the question in a calm way and I'm not angry. But good discussion though.
AugustHeatHaze1 votesif you are relaxed then dont make posts that stir the pot and bring a bunch of rotted meat to the top
Modi1 votesI'm relaxed. I asked the question in a calm way and I'm not angry. But good discussion though.
I also enjoyed the discussion! Very rarely do I get to have such a technical discussion related to words, grammar, and/or etymology. I am sad that I never got to the party about gender specific words in old English, though :-)
LightningShado1 votesI also enjoyed the discussion! Very rarely do I get to have such a technical discussion related to words, grammar, and/or etymology. I am sad that I never got to the party about gender specific words in old English, though :-)
Honestly the reason I even care about 'marksperson' is because I don't like the politically correct culture where people are concerned about offending others because what they say doesn't sound inclusive even though it is. What is already there is good, but when I think about it, I guess it doesn't really matter. Unless someone is blatantly misusing the English language, I guess it doesn't really matter. I shouldn't be so critical, but in the context of the game, I still think marksman is the correct of addressing the class because that's the name of it.
Modi1 votesHonestly the reason I even care about 'marksperson' is because I don't like the politically correct culture where people are concerned about offending others because what they say doesn't sound inclusive even though it is. What is already there is good, but when I think about it, I guess it doesn't really matter. Unless someone is blatantly misusing the English language, I guess it doesn't really matter. I shouldn't be so critical, but in the context of the game, I still think marksman is the correct of addressing the class because that's the name of it.
If people want to be PC, that's on them. If it is being forced on you, me, or anyone else, that is where I would draw the line. There is no harm in someone else being politically correct, if there is no expectation that you are required to follow suit.
Just as you would (likely) not want to be forced to be PC, I would expect, or at least hope, you would give the same respect to another to make their own decisions, regarding their being politically correct or not.
Besides, as long as the sentence is /grammatically correct, that is all that REALLY matters :-) (Kidding of course, but it is a pet peeve of mine).
LightningShado1 votesIf people want to be PC, that's on them. If it is being forced on you, me, or anyone else, that is where I would draw the line. There is no harm in someone else being politically correct, if there is no expectation that you are required to follow suit.
Just as you would (likely) not want to be forced to be PC, I would expect, or at least hope, you would give the same respect to another to make their own decisions, regarding their being politically correct or not.
Besides, as long as the sentence is /grammatically correct, that is all that REALLY matters :-) (Kidding of course, but it is a pet peeve of mine).
That's true. I'm fine with it now. Good talking to you and have a great day! :)
AugustHeatHaze1 votesFinally, just relax, it's a goddamned word in patch notes for a fictional universe.
DING DING DING
Warlord Rhinark1 votesHuman, and its Latin base homo (as in homo sapiens), are both masculine words, which have come to be used to refer to all genders.
So... What, you reckon we'll get rid of human and homo sapiens by 2020?
Kilanost2 votesMarksmen is actually a masculine word. While there exists no gender neutral, nor other gendered similar word in the dictionary, that does not make the word that does exist gender neutral.
Interesting, though, that in a fictional universe littered with made up words, the one you take offense to is the one that is being used as a gender neutral noun in the patch notes.
Actually it very much does make the word gender neutral. Grammatical gender in English exists as a way to dictate whether masculine or feminine pronouns can be used to refer to that word. In the absence of an alternative, words with only one gender form are by definition gender neutral as they must be applied to both genders. The following sentences will show the difference:
That marksman's frost arrow is so OP that SHE is rising in priority.
That marksman's early game is so strong that HE is rising in priority.
That waitress is so good at HIS job that HE is often requested by customers.
Note the dissonance in the third sentence when compared to the first and second. That is because the word waitress is a word you only pair to a female. In other words, you can presume any waitress is female because there exists a male form of the word that was specifically not used. Due to the lack of a female form of the word Marksman, you can assume no such gender differentiation thus making it a gender neutral word.
This is a English language problem as many other languages allow for gender specific endings on their nouns doubled with the fact that the word man has both a gender specific meaning and a gender neutral meaning and therefore people often see it as part of another word and erroneously assume an implicit gender bias.
Modi1 votesActually it very much does make the word gender neutral. Grammatical gender in English exists as a way to dictate whether masculine or feminine pronouns can be used to refer to that word. In the absence of an alternative, words with only one gender form are by definition gender neutral as they must be applied to both genders. The following sentences will show the difference:
Again, gender neutrality in regards to subject does not change the gender association of the word itself. Yes, the word can be used for all genders, but it does not make the word itself lose its associated gender.
That marksman's frost arrow is so OP that SHE is rising in priority.
Or markswoman
That marksman's early game is so strong that HE is rising in priority.
That waitress is so good at HIS job that HE is often requested by customers.
Note the dissonance in the third sentence when compared to the first and second. That is because the word waitress is a word you only pair to a female. In other words, you can presume any waitress is female because there exists a male form of the word that was specifically not used. Due to the lack of a female form of the word Marksman, you can assume no such gender differentiation thus making it a gender neutral word.
I see no dissonance, only incorrect usage. Then again, working with people from around the world has largely made me desensitized to these kinds of misuse, as it is quite common with non-native English speakers.
This is a English language problem as many other languages allow for gender specific endings on their nouns doubled with the fact that the word man has both a gender specific meaning and a gender neutral meaning and therefore people often see it as part of another word and erroneously assume an implicit gender bias.
As in above, gender neutrality in use does not eliminate the gender of the word itself.
Kilanost2 votesAgain, gender neutrality in regards to subject does not change the gender association of the word itself. Yes, the word can be used for all genders, but it does not make the word itself lose its associated gender.
Or markswoman
I see no dissonance, only incorrect usage. Then again, working with people from around the world has largely made me desensitized to these kinds of misuse, as it is quite common with non-native English speakers.
As in above, gender neutrality in use does not eliminate the gender of the word itself.
You can't change the reality of the language and it's usage to suit your purposes in this argument. It's concrete. I'm not saying there is any fault in marksperson. In fact, as a large company it's smart to minimize blowback from public announcements anyway possible. I'm just saying, and again this is supported by proper understanding of the English language and it's usage, that saying "marksperson" is incorrect usage.
To be clear, the idea of nouns having a gender is not an implicit statement of real word gender association but rather is an artifact which exists based on the mechanistic necessities of how language evolved. The gender designations of words literally existed so that people would know what endings to use on descriptive words associated with with that noun so people would have a better idea what noun was being referred to, particularly languages that are influenced by Latin. Saying that a noun is "male" means absolutely nothing in terms of real world gender designations, particularly in the modern English language where these designations were often imported with the word from the language where the word originated.
That being said I just double checked to see that markswoman is in fact a word that is recognized and therefore, the most correct usage would have been to say markswoman. I would have been much more satisfied with that as I think most would.
Riot is treating navigating a world where sex and gender exist as an unsolvable quagmire of unspoken rules. Using gender neutral language where it is completely unnecessary is a PR move to project and outward appearance of change in their culture while they figure out their shit. I'd much rather them just figure out their shit which would be partly solved by explaining to them that I'd you wouldn't say something in front of your mother, you shouldn't say it at work. Generally speaking everything else just boils down to not being an asshole. Transgender people are fairly understanding about people transitioning to proper pronoun use so long as you are making a good faith effort to get it right and treat them respectfully.
So essentially the people pissed about marksperson as well as the people angrily defending it are representing the extremes and, like most extremes in life, the extremes do not represent the most reasonable approach to this problem.
woodvsmurph1 votesProbably don't want all sorts of negative comments - got sick of reading them every patch and hearing how dumb some of their decisions were.
Ex: So rito thinks ezreal is already in a good spot with his rework AND his winrate went up, but you're buffing his w? WTF
Hethalean1 votesProbably don't want all sorts of negative comments - got sick of reading them every patch and hearing how dumb some of their decisions were.
Ex: So rito thinks ezreal is already in a good spot with his rework AND his winrate went up, but you're buffing his w? WTF
Didn't his win rate go down from last patch?
woodvsmurph1 voteshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzzUg2hRTdg
Go to around 7:30 - I'm not an adc main so I don't bother looking that stuff up mostly. I definitely feel like he's doing more damage now with less items and finding more success from seeing him in my matches though.
EvilDustMan1 votesWho cares? It doesn't hurt you.