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Riot likes overused romantic tropes and narratives. Heres something I'd consider a bit more unique

Marian Hawke··17 votes·8,776 views

In this post I will be picking out the most prominent, wannabe excuse for a romance in League of Legends apart and offering something better in its place both in storylining, character growth and development, staying more in character than Riot seems to be able to keep to and hopefully dispersing an awful concept that it makes the overused, poorly executed Romeo and Juliet trope that it’s based off of look good: Katarina and Garen. Even if you don't read all of this, please read the next paragraph at least; it details what I am trying to accomplish by laying all of this out like I am.

Yes, this is a thread dedicated to picking apart the concept piece by piece and stomping it into the dirt while I offer several different, significantly more interesting and unique narratives that will NOT slaughter the characters and will hopefully more than the shallow tropes that Jaeredan or whoever is in charge of the storylining teams get their jollies from. It will be long winded and I strongly encourage anybody to convince me, through realism and logical discussion, that this is a relationship that can work for both characters as well as the overarching storyline between noxus and demacia. However, if all you have to say is ‘NO YOURE WRONG I LOVE THEM YOURE A JERK WITH AN OPINION I DISLIKE’ please leave now. I understand I will be stepping on toes but I would like to at least pretend to be an adult about this and hold a discussion.

(I will be adding various spell Icons throughout this to help with breaking it apart and to make it a bit easier to read. I understand that text walls such as these are difficult to read sometimes)

summoner 14

Firstly, before I begin, you may be asking why I care. _'It’s just a game,’ _many of you may say as you furrow your brow and prepare to type out your generic insults. League of Legends, more specifically the lore and Katarina herself are significantly more than that to me.

When I began playing, as a brief explanation as to what happened, I was in an extremely bad place in my life. League and it’s lore was my escape from a world were family dropped dead and the rest scattered to the wind, leaving me with mountains of debt, 5 younger siblings to provide for while working 50+ hours every week while STILL going hungry at night. Needless to say, I found a certain peace, a safe place in league and the instant I read Katarina’s lore was the instant I fell in love with her and the game. I have related to this silly fictional character so much more than I could have ever thought possible, her ideals and the strength that she was written with (hell even her flaws) was something that helped remind me that I could get through things. Without league, I might not be here in all honesty…

So, to me, league is not just a game. It’s become a very prominent, powerful thing that has helped me from that point forward through some of the hardest things a person might go through.

summoner 3

Now, to the point:

Why this 'romance' needs to be written out of the lore entirely:

From a personal view, the trope that this romance is based on is legitimately putrid and hideously overdone. It was never well written and frankly it never will be just because it’s SO COMMON.

To see such strong characters with vast potential boiled down to such a surface definition of 'love’ is disheartening and frankly upsetting. I was hoping that with the JoJ no longer being considered canon (with exceptions of course, see the Ionian invasion) that the fan-girling would stop. However, as long as the lead narrative writers keep their hard on for the _'big, self righteous manly man taming the wild, vicious woman’ _I realize that the character that I have come to adore so much is very likely going to be slaughtered. I mean they’re already on their way to ruining her by catering to the Straight Male Gamer Gaze.

_How? _You saw the thong (which no proper athlete, let alone a soldier of any sort would ever wear when active) stretching almost up to her ribs and the very real, awful implications that they offered when Rengar nearly cut out her ovaries. Thank you for that, Riot. Thank you for that burst of unnecessary over sexualization right there.

The romance is a very clear example of this catering that is going on. It’s so stereotypical, so over done, almost every single action flick that has one strong male protag and ANY female worth note has it. Add in the heteronormative idealism that runs rampant in modern culture and **BAM! **There you have it. An overused, boring trope that, while its so unrealistic and implausible, is still wildly accepted and ultimately used as fap fodder. It isn't unique, it isn't worth paying real attention to and it most certainly isn't anything anybody really cares about beyond the supposed aesthetic idea of Big Man and Little Lady.

There is such potential here to delve into uncommon emotions that add a whole new depth to both characters, and yet you’re opting for 'love?’ Writing it off as_ 'oh it’ll never happen (cause it’s tragic you knowitem 3070 item 3070 item 3070 ) but the feelings are there don’t worry’_ is an example of lazy writing. Try paving the way by elaborating on the different, very real and powerful emotion that is hate and prejudice. Try really fleshing out the respect they have from a 'fighter to fighter’ view and leave out the prepubescent crush that characters roughly in their thirties (yes I’ve dug into the timeline and such. I’m a world builder, I do that) are implicated in having.

This link right here will take you to a page I’m 100% certain has been seen before, detailing the specifics as to why this romance isn’t even plausible for a single second ONLY because of their personalities and how human nature/psychology work. Being a world builder, I’ve dug into the Noxian and Demacian ideology and factored that into the explanation as well, in order to retain realism as well as to stay as close to character as absolutely possible.

If you take the time to read it (I know it’s long, once I get soapboxing I REALLY get going, especially when I’m passionate about the topic) the page will also, hopefully, help you to realize how this is legitimately jeopardizing both city states while slaughtering any potential depth and REAL story Katarina and Garen individually could have. However, I will gladly spell it all out ABC for those too lazy to respectfully read the material before questioning it or to those who simply do not understand the world and other characters in play as much as somebody who has spent 3+ years analyzing and breaking down all of the lore. Something I wish I could say a lot of the narrative team might be able to do.

summoner 31

'Well, okay so the ship doesn’t work and it IS lazy writing.. But you said you had more interesting alternatives to offer. Where are they?’

We can start with Katarina and one major alternative that sates those who are frothing at the mouth for romance, factors in a potential world event involving Noxus (a money making event since I understand all that riot wants is our cash to climb out of their 'Tech Debt’) and is significantly more true to character for both individuals involved. Plus, it’s an eye catcher if only because it ISN’T a heterosexual relationship and therefore will catch every bodies attention and in turn, very likely to draw more potential players to the DOWNLOAD NOW button.

The pairing I’m talking about, soaked with angst and heavily laden with a plethora of varied emotions is Katarina and Riven.

'How would that even work? Besides, they’re not gaaaaay!!’

Firstly, NOBODY is gay in Runeterra because the people who write it are viewing their stories through that heteronormative lens I mentioned earlier. It’s very likely that nobody simply considered that people in the game were potentially not straight. While I believe Katarina in particular is more or less Pansexual and Riven is more asexual, the romance between two women in such a prominent game is going to get attention.

You’ll have everybody who isn’t heterosexual excited, happy that they get some form of representation in such a popular medium. Make it well written and not just a joke like 80% of all non-straight characters in the media are portrayed and you will gain a strong following of supporters to combat the rampant, homophobic individuals out there. You want proof that this could work? Go read about The Legend of Korra and see what happened.

'How can it be well written? I mean I’m not gay I won’t know!’

Well it’s the same as being straight… Like really. If you’re struggling for good, non straight characterization, go watch Sense8.

summoner 4

Now, a rough storyline that makes this a plausible romance:

Add Marcus Du'Couteau as a prominent influence in Riven's life pre-exile. It doesn't even have to be anything direct, but perhaps his strength and his ideology and the way he goes about 'being Noxian' is strong enough that Riven has heard of this. Begins to mold her own views and such to his own and seeks to gain a strength and fame equivalent to his own in some way shape or form. This allows for a common ground for both Riven and Katarina to stand on, ideals on how Noxus should be and how 'True Noxians' ought to be. If you involve Marcus directly, there is a significant chance that Katarina and Riven will have met, even briefly. This is only increasing said chances of meeting and knowing one another with the canon information that tells us that Katarina was in fact at least somewhat involved in Ionia.

In the happenstance that they became involved Pre-Couer, they would very well start off as rivals. Two rookie fighters continuously arguing over tactics, sparring because with the Noxian idea that certain emotions, including admitting fault, is 'weak.' No doubt they would become the sort who speak to one another through action, not word, especially considering how temperamental Katarina can be. They back and forth, Riven wins some, Kat wins some, and a new respect and potential adoration for the others personality coupled with the ultimate comfort that comes from being around a consistent somebody that you don't have to put up a front with (I say this going off of the idea that Riven, being a quieter individual compared to Katarina, can quite easily temper her and quiet the raging maelstrom that is Miss Du'Couteau when she tries) lays the groundwork for their relationship.

The fire between them, likely not recognized as anything but a thirst to combat one another (again going off of the 'speak through your actions not your words' idea) begins, however so does preparation for Fury Companies mobilization for Ionian combat.

They say their goodbyes, make their promises with that passion burning inside of them, that quiet drive to see one another again commences as Katarina departs to deal with Kalamanda while Riven's unit continues to prepare for active deployment. Riven may feel a draw to Katarina because of these ideals, this direct tie to Marcus and his 'true Noxian' mindset only driving her to cling all more tightly to Katarina's presence in her life.

On Riven 's end of the deal:

She commences the Ionian Genocide like any good Noxian Commander ought to do. She follows her rules, believes 100% in what Noxus is doing (failing to realize at the time how wildly different she would feel if she acknowledged that Marcus may or may not be condoning these things or that what she is doing is in line with those idolized ideals that he represents to her) and ultimately watches her unit, her family, get melted cause Singed is a dick.

Her Exile isn't spent necessarily lamenting the idea that she won't ever get to see Katarina again, in fact it could very well be the opposite. The Du'Couteaus are extremely prominent and influential in the military and for all Riven knows (and has likely spent countless nights pondering) Katarina was directly involved or simply failed to stop the Melter Barrage that wiped out not only a massive chunk of Ionian forces, but also Fury Company as well. Where there is doubt, the poison of paranoia and fear may warp her thoughts and yet- -

Part of her also hopes. That hope is a very small sliver of light buried beneath the atrocities she witnessed as well as the suspicion and pain of betrayal, and yet it is there. However, it is not the reason that she returns. Noxus is why she returns and she can only hope that Katarina isn't what that little blackened voice in the back of her head whispers: traitor, liar, deceiver, selfish and uncaring.

That hope however may drive her to seek Katarina out upon her arrival to the Noxian Border, but it is more likely that Riven is fearful that her suspicions may be correct and that Katarina may be just another tool of the corrupt Noxian leadership and in turn causes her to avoid the assassin. However, word travels quick in the underworld and such a unique appearance that graces Riven's facade (amber eyes, bronzed skin and hair platinum in color) is likely to be noticed at least once. An assassin, one with as many ties to said underworld as Katarina very likely has, would no doubt hear of this.

From Katarina 's end of the deal:

Goodbyes are said and Katarina is certain that once this political bickering taking place in Kalamanda has concluded, that she can resume her 'proper duties' on the Ionian front. AKA she can quietly ply her trade as well as peek in on the woman who seemed to expend so little effort in capturing her full attention. But alas, Kalamanda is far more than just some political squabble.

Now embroiled in a political shit storm with rumors flying back and forth involving herself and a certain Demacian Captain (the product of Swain himself, likely spread to make Katarina less reputable while he tends to his business of removing her father in order to claim the Noxian throne. This would no doubt make anything she had to say against his actions less weighty in the public's eye with such damning, treasonous things 'tainting' her demeanor) Katarina finds herself both infuriated and at a loss. This supposed helplessness is only made worse when the word regarding her fathers disappearance reaches her.

She cannot leave, being forced into a sort of 'Spokesperson of Noxus' role as she tends to the worldly journalists on behalf of her home. She cannot search for her father, her idol, and when she can? News of Fury Companies untimely end is just as commonly shouted as the rumors involving herself and Garen are. However she has no place to turn for comfort.

Riven is dead, Marcus is gone, the relationship between herself and Cassiopeia strained further and Talon? I doubt he was much of the confidant sort.

Grief and a lack of closure, the mounting stress and tension that comes with the eyes of the public staring incessantly, scanning each and every move? Katarina closes herself off, becomes deeply resentful and all the more vicious. Her determination to annihilate the Demacian Monkey all but doubles as she struggles to find a way to simply live.

Eight years pass and Swain sits comfortably on his throne with Darius at his side and LeBlanc in his ear. Katarina has made next to no progress beyond making it known that she hardly considers herself aligned to Swain, though has also made it clear that she will always serve Noxus. At least, until a little bird whispers in her ear that a peculiar looking loner has strayed into Noxian territory, bearing skin the color of bronze and hair paler than the Freljordian snow.

Disbelief, hope, anger, curiosity, dread. These are things she may feel. She has to see for herself and in turn, seeks this loner until she eventually confronts Riven head on.

I don't have to lay out anymore of this for you to understand exactly what may happen after this regarding realistic development between the two that stay true to both characters do I?

Clairvoyance

'Okay so what is this Event that you have in your head? You know, the one that makes money?'

Easy. An attempted Revolution, a civil war of sorts that start within Noxus itself. Riven, Katarina (possibly Talon and so on) on one side. Swain and his whole Cadre on the other. Players can choose to pick a faction, like with the Bilgewater event did with the Icons, somewhat permanently. There will be goals presented, different depending on which side you choose to ally with with different rewards. Release specific skins to go with the event, offer them at a discount once the player has chosen their side and 'proven their loyalty' by completing the faction specific goals. Give them an icon, one that may sate players ultimately uninterested in skins, and sell the opposing factions skins at a regular price.

As with the Bilgewater event, the narrative can be fixed despite who the players align themselves with, OR as with the kind unfulfilling event that was the Freljord rework, provide 2 endings dependent solely on which side gains the most support. Either way, this provides character growth/development, it moves the overarching story of the world forward, as the Bilgewater event did and it directly involves the players and allows for them to feel like they have some influence over what happens in the game. Reskin a map or perhaps release a new game mode to accompany it and BAM! Something neat to do for a few weeks that produces a good, strong lore for the world as well as provides opportunity for MORE.

_Quiet PS: Kat and Riven as a couple is rapidly catching on as one of the more popular couples, by far one of the more common pairings I've seen portrayed involving Katarina. So it isn't like this is out of the blue . '.... Okay but more?'

Yeah. Noxus is going to be a bit busy dealing with the inner turmoil gutting it from the inside out. No doubt Demacia may see this as a golden opportunity to stomp out their timeless Rivals for good. Perhaps this causes problems with THEIR allies, the Piltovians, who may instead choose to sit this one out, as it is quite obviously not their business and they're likely not too eager to start a war. Or maybe they are. This could potentially force Noxus to call upon the aid of Zaun once more in an attempt to stave off this second brewing catastrophe.

Ionia could also capitalize on this. I think many of the Ionian champions would be divided as far as retaliation may go. You have some like Karma who may insist that they do nothing, that they rebuild and that peace is ultimately the answer. However you have those like Irelia and Yasuo filled with rage and hatred who think that the only way to ensure that peace survives is to remove those who will always threaten it by attacking them while they attack themselves. Cue second event involving an Ionian Civil War, if you so choose.

As for an alternative for Demacia, I admit I have done a bit less as far as worldbuilding in that area goes, however I would recommend a political marriage between two of the most prominent Demacian Houses in the city: Crownguard and Laurent.

Clearly, Fiora seeks to gain a better standing so it only makes sense for her to be all but willing to wed a man regardless of how she feels about him in order to reclaim what her fathers underhanded tactics lost. Garen needs a noble of reasonable standing (preferably of higher or equal value, but as a Crownguard and therefore at the tippity top already, beggars cant be choosers unless you release a new family line with a female at the Head) in order to produce more Crownguards.

Obviously, there will be those opposed to the union (see the Demacian LightbulbLux ) and watch the catfighting begin. If you really wanted to make a show, play the 'apple never falls too far from the tree' card.

Fiora is family oriented, family is her priority from my understanding. Garen is duty oriented, Demacia and serving the City and Crown is his. No doubt that the duo will butt heads and if you add in Lux (who last I checked didn't quite get along with Fiora for some reason) egging it on by doing her best to dissuade Garen from further associating with her...

You get misunderstandings.

Fiora will stop at nothing to serve and protect her family and yet Garen seems to care less about them when Demacia is concerned simply because the city is quite literally his everything. He was raised to be blindly dedicated to their ideals, their way of life, their home, from the instant his mummy dearest pushed him out. If Fiora feels like his need to perform his duties to his city threatens her family, I don't put it passed her to take action.

Of course, this is significantly less thought out, though I intend on doing exactly that when I have more brain juice. I'll get around to factoring in all of the appropriate champions and I'll construct a larger, world affecting storyline if I feel like somebody may have interest in reading it, but this is a basic synopsis of things that would work at least 45999.333% better than anything that involved Katarina and Garen as a romantic narrative ever.

Garrison

Now that I've got the bare bones of why I feel the way I do laid out, I'd like to hear what you all think. ESPECIALLY if you have something that may go along with the ideas that I have presented, helping me to better flesh them out and in turn, make a better concept for everybody to understand and enjoy! However, if you're only here to gripe at me without any desire to have any legitimate sort of debate or discussion on an adult level, by all means, just click the back button.

In the meantime, I'm going to go waste my time getting wrecked in game. Thank you all for reading and again, I hope to hear back from somebody with thoughts and opinions :D

54 Comments

RiotBioluminescence26 votes

Well - you've certainly put a significant amount of effort into this, and no matter my opinions, I respect you for that.

First off, two things - first, I am not on the narrative team so I have next to no influence on these subjects. Consider me as influential as any other player in this regard, and ignore the redness of my name if you can :) Secondly, I do not ship Katarina/Garen. Or indeed anyone else - it's generally just not something I do. However, I do realize that it has great import for many people.

As an aside, just so you're aware, you generally use "not put it passed Demacia" when it should actually be "not put it past Demacia" etc. Just a typo I've seen both in this post here, and in the Tumblr post you linked. I hope you'll not take offence - but as a writer I hope you'll not mind me trying to correct this :D

Now - to the body of the idea itself! Personally, I think you have done a lot of thinking about this, and I agree with you up to a point where I find a weakness in the argument. My issue is that an awful lot of the time, humans do indeed do things that are contrary to A) their better interests, and B) what they are stridently and very vocally against. I've lost count of the times we've heard of politicians or religious leaders who publically decry certain people or behaviors, while secretly fraternizing with, or exhibiting, that self same thing. Whether it's the secretly homosexual homophobe, or the family-values adulterer, or the anti-immigration warrior with the illegally emigrated lover (and often, child). It happens all the time.

So when you argue that Garen who is the ideals of Demacia made flesh, would NEVER EVER EVER contravene those ideals to fraternize with the enemy, I am reminded of just these sorts of hypocrites. When you say that Katarina is too true a Noxian, and too wise, to have lustful feelings for a dirty Demacian, I think of these sorts of hypocrites.

Happens all the time.

Now, what I'm not doing is suggesting that that is what's going on with Garen and Katarina - again, I remind you that I neither ship them together, nor ship them with anyone else. It's not outwidth the bounds of possibility, as you are so strongly stating.

Now, to my second point - replacing the Katarina/Garen ship with Katarina/Riven. Well, I think you've probably seen that Riot is not best loved for some of the changes they've made to well loved champion backgrounds. And as you well know, the relationships between characters is one of the most emotionally volitile that you could change. You yourself have pointed out how vocal the proponents of the K/G ship is - to change that to anything else would outrage those players for taking away something they liked and enjoyed about their personalities. Doesn't matter if you think it's wrong - those players to a certain extent, have the high ground as 'being there first'.

I have no problem with having ships with other champions being introduced - of any particular orientation you care to mention (Bard/Hot Air Balloon 4 life) but to change an established one is dangerous waters.

I'm rather nonplussed with your suggestion of changing it to a homosexual relationship as an attention grabbing gimmick - I don't really think that's appropriate for anyone. (Also, I wasn't a fan of Sense8's distasteful introduction of some of their couples - I do not need to see Martha Jones toss a dripping sex toy to the floor, thank you very much.) Maybe you were using that because you thought that it was what Riot wanted to hear - that we're all about grabbing a headline or two. Well, I really hope we're not.

There are surprisingly few relationships in League's roster at the moment, and for most champions the public nature of their sexuality just isn't as important to them as how they fight, where they came from, and what's driving them. Just as I'm sure for most people, they'd rather be measured on their achievements and personality, rather than who they happen to love.

Lastly, of course, fan-fiction and player-canon will live forever. If you choose not to like the Katarina/Garen ship, then no-one can touch your particular re-imagining of Katarina's lovelife. You can ship her with anyone, no-one, or some never-before-considered variant and there will be fellow players who will applaud your vision and likely 'ship it. Riot isn't destroying that when they tease anything else. You can choose to believe that those rumors are simply the witterings of doe-eyed tavern-goers and tup'penny pantomimes, and that only you have the real insight into what's going on behind the scenes. You won't like that as an answer, of course :)

IcyPepper13 votes

(Bard/Hot Air Balloon 4 life)

I ship this.

I'm rather nonplussed with your suggestion of changing it to a homosexual relationship as an attention grabbing gimmick - I don't really think that's appropriate for anyone.

Blegh. Just quoting that instead of two whole passages, but I'm not really a fan of people who want a gay/straight champion for the sake of being gay/straight, either a new champion or adding to a new one. OP might have some decent opinions, but someone's sexuality is a part of their character, not just tacked on or some label they live by. Using that as an attention grabbing gimmick, even if it was a heterosexual relationship, is rather shallow. Part of the reason the Kat/Garen ship sails so strong is that some art (see Dino Gnar for example) and writing hints at it rather than downright canonizes, both to tease us and to leave it at interpretation without forcing it down our throats.

And that "teasing" is equal opportunity. Some ships are teased at, either unintentionally ("Cupcake!") or intentionally (Ezreal drawing what?), but for the most part it's mostly just that: teasing. No attention grabbing gimmick, no epic lore event, just a little bit of flavor to the game to make use tilt our heads and wonder what's going on inside these champions's heads. Is Vi totally fists over heels for Cait, or just a playful friend? Is Garen totally hot for Katarina, or does he just want to fight what he finds to be a true opponent in battle?

Ramuhdo4 votes

I'm not really a fan of people who want a gay/straight champion for the sake of being gay/straight

I'll take a blasé Romeo and Juliet relationship over a gay relationship "for the sake of representation" or "because we can". Don't get me wrong─I'm not against a homosexual relationship, be it in real life or in my video games. But I don't believe that in the latter case, you should introduce one just to be novel or polarising.

IcyPepper1 votes

Trust me, I'm a guy who was adopted by two dudes. It's not really all that special, it's hardly different than having straight parents (and I got sources to back that up, if my personal experience isn't enough!). So I guess I'm the same way.

Here, just to prove our point home, I'll play a quick word swap game.

I'll take a blasé Romeo and Juliet relationship over a straight relationship "for the sake of representation" or "because we can". Don't get me wrong─I'm not against a heterosexual relationship, be it in real life or in my video games. But I don't believe that in the latter case, you should introduce one just to be novel or polarising.

I'll take a blasé Romeo and Juliet relationship over a interracial relationship "for the sake of representation" or "because we can". Don't get me wrong─I'm not against a interracial relationship, be it in real life or in my video games. But I don't believe that in the latter case, you should introduce one just to be novel or polarising.

I'll take a blasé Romeo and Juliet relationship over a robosexual relationship "for the sake of representation" or "because we can". Don't get me wrong─I'm not against a robosexual relationship, be it in real life or in my video games. But I don't believe that in the latter case, you should introduce one just to be novel or polarising.

As someone who aspires to be a writer someday, I often make the mistake of doing something because I can. Thing is, stories are driven because characters want something. Gay relationships for the sake of gay relationships would be shallow for the game's lore, hell if that were to happen it'd be more interesting if maybe, like, Caitlyn and Vi for example were on some kind of mission and had a close brush with death, and maybe Vi said something in the heat of the moment. Or maybe Taric casually mentions a previous boyfriend, or Tristana quietly turns down Teemo because she's not into men. Nothing too big, because it just really doesn't fit the theme of the game. Garen and Katarina's relationship (or whatever it is) is probably the biggest "shipping" this game will ever have, and that's honestly not a bad thing. Hell, even that's decent writing because at least Garen has a reason ((fighting her, I guess?) to seek Katarina out beyond wanting to bang her.

Ramuhdo4 votes

The word swap game does apply in all cases. I'm not against any kind of romance (Bard x Hot Air Balloon), so long as it isn't done just for the sake of it, or just to be polarising and eye-catching. Similar to you, I enjoy writing, and published a few stories myself in the visual novel format. What characters want is always the more important thing than establishing a love relationship for the sake of love.

Making a big deal about a League relationship does indeed not feel like it fits the game. Like Diana being into girls as a passing remark, or Lux and Ezreal's supposed relationship. None of these catch the limelight, and they shouldn't. League is about murdering cute little hooded guys in a forest with some towers and a glowing stone at the end of the road.

It's not about carrying your beloved to the hymnal altar to exchange wedding vows. At best, it's about carrying your beloved to victory because they keep feeding and you're through with that shit and want a win for a change.

IcyPepper2 votes

At best, it's about carrying your beloved to victory because they keep feeding and you're through with that shit and want a win for a change.

Now that's true love.

sp4413 votes

I think Garen is kind of weird because I always interpreted him as having raised since birth to being Demacia's will made into flesh, to the point where he's completely socially inept and emotionally immature, he literally does not understand what he feels for Katarina.

Lord Graves III2 votes

Kats dad. Knife Fighting tank with a bushy european noble beard. Think about it. Dude taught talon and kat how to fight.

Think about it riot.

Phife1 votes

Im sorry but what exactly does a senior level designer do on a game like league of legends?

Hellioning10 votes

Katarina/Garen, at least, has some canon backing. Maybe it's cliche and overrated, but everything in this game is; we're not doing anything really complicated except making our male gnomes furry. Your other options, meanwhile, come completely out of left field. Now, obviously, Riot could elaborate on them, but you're throwing away canon because, essentially, you don't like the ship.

And shippers should never decide anything about anything.

You put in a lot of effort and thought, obviously, so I'm loathe to just write this off, and I want to discuss your points more obviously... But every time I do, my immediate first thought is 'I'm reading someone's fanfiction they want to become canon.'

I'm sorry, really I do, but I just can't take anything seriously when you feel the need to discuss certain character's sexuality when we have absolutely no confirmation beyond 'Katarina is interested in Garen.'

Marian Hawke4 votes

{quoted}

Katarina/Garen, at least, has some canon backing. Maybe it's cliche and overrated, but everything in this game is; we're not doing anything really complicated except making our male gnomes furry. Your other options, meanwhile, come completely out of left field. Now, obviously, Riot could elaborate on them, but you're throwing away canon because, essentially, you don't like the ship.

And shippers should never decide anything about anything.

You put in a lot of effort and thought, obviously, so I'm loathe to just write this off, and I want to discuss your points more obviously... But every time I do, my immediate first thought is 'I'm reading someone's fanfiction they want to become canon.'

I'm sorry, really I do, but I just can't take anything seriously when you feel the need to discuss certain character's sexuality when we have absolutely no confirmation beyond 'Katarina is interested in Garen.'

I completely understand that 100%. To be entirely honest, his is more or less an example that could be used to elaborate on something a bit overdone while providing the reader with something that requires minimal thought on their part.

I was more or less hoping that by doing so, other options could more or less be considered on the emotional level or in an overarching storyline sense that isn't the same ol' stuff we see every day. I have several other options that I've explored and considered, including things (in regards to Katarina at least) such as a political marriage with Darius and so on.

It's not quite 'she should be gay' so much as 'here's a different thing that could work you know?'

But I most certainly see your point and I thank you for bringing that up! Also forgive any typos, I'm restricted to my phone for the moment and touch screens don't like to register the touch of a bandaid lol

Hellioning4 votes

Oh, certainly, I understand the desire to see something new. But old things are used for a reason; it's really easy to relate to star crossed lovers. You're gonna need a better argument for doing something new other than 'it's new!'.

Acaim1 votes

Actually fact it's old isn't making it good. They did Katarina x Garen when they rewrite lores for the first time, trying to make character deeper. What is the easiest way? Let's add to some super slayer character some feelings. What feelings will get most attention? Love of course. And which love gets most attention? forbidden one. Voilà.

It's not about being best. It's about easiest way on that time. It wasn't about making it good. It was about attention. And nowadays, after they made so much champions with various character, took range pallete of feelings, Kat x Garen in compare to other starts to be flat. Made in bad way. And "repairing" that ship would only lead to either destroing their characters to avoid pride perjudice etc, or totally rebuilding Noxus and Demacia ( what leads to rebuilding all characters bounded to both city states )

Forgive my mistakes I'm still learning english.

GreenLore2 votes

Sometimes the easy way is the best way.

Also looking at the league roster,it looks more like the feeling of hate is much more popular among rioters,I mean look at all those rivalries,they make the love between garen and katarina look unique by comparison.

And I'd say there is the subtle uniqueness to this forbidden love,because of their personality. The usual couple would be all like "why do our nations have to fight" and "maybe we can run away together or stop the fighting". But not Garen&Katarina.Those 2 are rather patriotic and have no problem with the war between their nations at all.

Sharjo3 votes

Revenge is the overused trope imo:

  • Azir against Xerath
  • Brand is the "Burning Vengeance"
  • Diana the Solari
  • Gangplank against Miss Fortune
  • Graves against TF
  • Kalista vengeance incarnate
  • Lucian against Thresh
  • MissFortune against Gangplank
  • Nautilus the folks who abandoned him
  • Renekton against Nasus
  • Swain against Jarvan IV
  • Syndra Ionia's government
  • Varus all of Noxus
  • Warwick against Soraka
  • Xerath Shurima

And there's more I didn't even mention!

ULTRAF0RCE1 votes

I think that Darius is an example of someone who there is a negative chance of Katarina even wanting to be associated with, while she may respect him as a soldier if she has any pride in her bloodline a marriage to Darius would be unhelpful for helping her with anyone who is from the old families and also will probably lead to comments from snarkier noxians about how the "great" Du Couteau family has fallen now marrying a person of nonpowerful blood. There might also be the issue that she kind of hates swain or at least is distrustful of him according to most lore which is probably what those argueing for garen- kat shipping would love to point out even though I have no way of seeing how a proud demacian would want to help restore "honour" to the empire.

Punguin5 votes

I feel like you're maybe putting too much focus on the specific examples offered when really, even if they are OPs preferred examples, that's what they are. Riot has shown us more and more that they're not afraid to do real, game changing things in terms of lore, in particular new things that are inevitably going to garner fans and people who hate the changes. The implications of Kat/Garen have been around for a long time, yes, shoved in before Riot even thought they might make it as big as they did. It's half-formed and outdated. Not to mention -- do we really, as implied by Jeredan, want a massive Demacia vs. Noxus event that's spurred on by something as petty as forbidden romance?

I digress. I feel the nature of this post is less 'this is my ship and I'd like to make it canon' and far more intended to challenge Riot to do something different, and not stick to heteronormative, predictable and ill-conceived ideas that don't stand with their own portrayals of their own characters.

More examples?

Katarina and Darius. Perhaps an arranged marriage as orchestrated by Swain in order to keep a closer eye on her, that she takes as opportunity (all while hating it) to keep her enemies close. Tensions rise and a Noxian revolution plot is still viable but it doesn't revolve around a ship.

Need forbidden romance? Jarvan IV with a painfully strong crush on his childhood friend. Trysts by moonlight that's all very romantic until a noble with a weak claim to the crown finds out and cries that the Prince will produce no heirs! Cue a mad dash for the throne, and our star-crossed lovers having to push aside their feelings for the good of the crown, for Demacia. Spurred by a ship perhaps, but the ship is not the focus.

Examples I'm sure that have a plethora of holes in them that I've slapped together in just a few minutes, but examples nonetheless.

Hellioning10 votes

Change for the sake of change is not a good idea. I don't want Riot to change things just to do something new, I want them to change things because I want there to be a benefit to changing. And if you don't want Riot to do predictable, expected things, then you probably need to have them completely rework basically everything about their story. Cause Runeterra is kinda a generic place. Sure, the champions themselves are the most unique part about the place, but even they tend to fell prey to tropes and stereotypes.

Sure, Katarina/Garen is predictable, but it's not necessary ill-conceived. There are a lot of ways to make it work. And I object to your use of the term 'heteronormative'; honestly, I might get some hate for it, but the only benefit a homosexual relationship brings by virtue of being a homosexual relationship is representation. That's great, and I understand why people want representation, but I'm not sure if the representation is worth the backlash that would come from changing one of the few consistent bits of character interaction that's been in the game since the beginning.

Maybe I focused too much on the strict examples, but I still don't think why Katarina/Garen is specifically a bad ship. Not much has been done with it, true, but that's because not much has been done with lore in general.

Kannu9 votes

Aaaaaaaand this is how Lore, Character Bio, Events & Co should be planned & written. Not just a vague story that fits in ten words, not that story we get for the nth time, and most of all, a coherent whole. °^°

  • Thumbs up * League of Legends needs more post like this.
Acaim1 votes

Ty Kannu I'm not only not NA there -going back to write clever answers-

A Superb Villain9 votes

Your post is quite substantial, and you have clearly invested a great deal of time to composing it for a presentation on the Boards. The logic you have provided to support your ideas is relatively sound; I can find nothing that I would object to as being a poorly conceived notion. Were it written as you have outlined, I believe the result would be most satisfactory.

Honestly, I feel that all forms of relationships are capable of providing a compelling tale to entertain an audience, whether it be romantic or not, heterosexual or homosexual. In fact, I have written before why I believe Braum and Lissandra have the potential to represent a moving story of friendship that persists even in the face of their ideals tearing each other apart, and it is their beliefs which force them into conflict, even as they continue to care very much for one another.

However, I must ask, why romance? Why Riven? Why Katarina? Why Garen? Why anyone? Is it convenience? Potential? A good story can be written in the complete absence of any romantic relationship, which is why I would not object to the elimination of any star-crossed lovers' tale. Yet I am curious as to why you were compelled to form a romance between Riven and Katarina. Tell me why it would be good, not for any political benefit or representation in multimedia, but your own reasons; I want to know. Tell me why this is your desire.

Swollwonder7 votes

While this is very well written I have some issues. One of your complaints is that this isn't likely to happen. You even linked a scholarship article to human psychology.

Why does it have to be realistic?

The entire fiction section of literature exist because it doesn't. No matter what the odds, the event happens and its amazing that it does. "its not likely" is usually a terrible argument for a work of fiction.

Second the sexualization of female characters. This has been a marketing thing since the beginning of time. Always debatable and it depends on whether you're arguing from a business stand point or a moral one (and its even harder for the moral one even though that's the only one that has your desired result) to decide if its right.

Third your replacement has the argument "you can make more drama somewhere else". Well this isn't necessarily better. If anything it makes the narrative more complicated which can be worse depending on the authors intention.

Fourth, you naturally assume there is a right way to write a story. Now this seems silly and if I flat out said this, you would say "no theres no right wy to write a story" because you know that. But that's also kinda what a lot of your argument is based off of. Katarina would be better with this or Garen would be better with that. But the author apparently doesn't think so because that's not how they wrote it. This is where either you make your own work or do a fan fiction. Its just your way of saying "this is how I think it should go". Its not right, its not wrong, its just different. At worst its not considered cannon by the community.

And I think that wraps up my thoughts. Still very well written though

ForgottenLuck5 votes

I personally disagree with your statement's but will respect them, though I for one will say I personally love the concept of forbidden love Katrina and Garen and would enjoy it more if it stayed, and anyway there is quite a bit of dialogue and even splash art that would have to be redone if you so wish it your way.

Marian Hawke3 votes

{quoted}

I personally disagree with your statement's but will respect them, though I for one will say I personally love the concept of forbidden love Katrina and Garen and would enjoy it more if it stayed, and anyway there is quite a bit of dialogue and even splash art that would have to be redone if you so wish it your way.

I feel like that is a small price to pay to see a trope that is hardly worth paying attention to. Riot spent a significant amount of money to reskin an entire map for less than a month, only to (as far as I am aware) discard it afterward. Voices? Splash art? Those things are a little less costly to a company like Riot compared to the cost of the technical work involved in creating an entire, brand spanking new map. It can quite easily be done.

Thank you for being respectful about this! I understand the appeal that 'forbidden love' has and frankly, if Riot could write a realistic, plausible scenario that isn't significantly against both characters and what they stand for morally and idealistically in literally every way shape and form, I could get behind that. I would ship it, but it simply isn't realistic and to play this entire thing off, despite its detriments to both the writing in the world as well as the characters themselves, by saying 'its love.'

There is no reasoning behind it, no substance. Its all too surface and overused... Like the old toys you see discarded on the side of the road that you pay no attention to. Because you've seen it all before. I just want something new, something that isn't going to ruin the character that I've become hideously, embarrassingly attached to you know?

I thank you kindly for responding though :) it means a lot, even though we disagree, to know you've at least read my awkwardly long spiel! Responses are responses and I want all of the feedback I can get.

Honestly, regardless of how well this post does or does not do, its helping me with several personal projects tied to League but more or less in an rping format/story building and so on.

ForgottenLuck2 votes

Now I see your point in not liking the trope, some people don't (I on the other hand love it to death, personal preference that I would rather not give my reason as to why, since its somewhat personal) but asking Riot to completely change splash art, audio, and some special Easter egg, for a couple of fans, who don't like it in itself is a little selfish especially considering those who do, no? Now I will say this, how's about instead of changing it or on other words destroying it, how would you feel if they instead wrote it off in a better fashion maybe giving us it's own exclusive little comic, I imagine that would be OK? plus I think I kinda should state that Riot have shown great liking to the pairing as well and doubt they would like to change it.

I understand very well the feeling of wanting to respect your favorite character and wanting them to be written in a professional and true to character manner but I feel its possible to find a mid point with both our likes, but on the matter of realism though I would just like to point out that your also playing a game with human like tigers, a living rock and 2 (maybe 4) un-dead beings so maybe realism should not be what we are focusing in but more of the character

I hope we are able to find a cross road in this chat to be able to please both of our likes :)

Marian Hawke2 votes

{quoted}

Now I see your point in not liking the trope, some people don't (I on the other hand love it to death, personal preference that I would rather not give my reason as to why, since its somewhat personal) but asking Riot to completely change splash art, audio, and some special Easter egg, for a couple of fans, who don't like it in itself is a little selfish especially considering those who do, no? Now I will say this, how's about instead of changing it or on other words destroying it, how would you feel if they instead wrote it off in a better fashion maybe giving us it's own exclusive little comic, I imagine that would be OK? plus I think I kinda should state that Riot have shown great liking to the pairing as well and doubt they would like to change it.

I understand very well the feeling of wanting to respect your favorite character and wanting them to be written in a professional and true to character manner but I feel its possible to find a mid point with both our likes, but on the matter of realism though I would just like to point out that your also playing a game with human like tigers, a living rock and 2 (maybe 4) un-dead beings so maybe realism should not be what we are focusing in but more of the character

I hope we are able to find a cross road in this chat to be able to please both of our likes :)

If the romance could be written viably, by all means sign me up! So far all I've seen however are very poor examples and excuses and next to no development beyond what appear to be very juvenile feelings for characters who are well beyond that stage in their life.

While I'm eager to see what riot has in store, I'm also dreading it because they have already demolished lore that I adore, they've also seemingly chosen less complex character stories that have less potential to become something fabulous in my opinion. Such has Cassiopeia.

There seemed to be so much more substance to her character when she was stripped of the one good thing she had to use to her advantage for noxus and for family. Add in her relationship with the now missing general and you have one very broken lady who is forced into either spending life in seclusion or learning how to use this new form in her favor. There was SO MUCH that could have branched off of that, but.. Now she's in shurima doing what exactly?

I know we have a lot in store for us lore wise, and we have very little of the grand picture to read, but why was she really there? What was this power worth risking everything for? Perhaps it's my own shortcoming, missing bits and pieces of lore I didn't read properly, but overall it just felt.. Hollow. Bland.

I know Katarina is an extremely prominent character and I fear for what riot is gonna do to her to further diminish her value as a rounded off character. It's something that nearly every character I've liked has been subject to, in many different forms of media. Badass lady always 'won' or 'fallen' for the guy. And almost every time it has been written without value. More like it was written that way because that is the norm. Guy always gets the girl, girl always falls for the man who directly opposed everything she's been raised with... That sorta thing.

But again, if riot can make this work, PLEASE DO!! If it provides a good, substantial amount of believable character growth, YES DO THAT! I'm just inclined to believe this thing is more or less a thing because it's expected and that it won't actually do more than harm both characters substance wise you know?

ForgottenLuck3 votes

Now what you say about the lore might be true in a form, lets us also not forget the Bilgwater event that was extremely satisfying in many form's and even evolved M.F. (My favorite adc tied with Twitch) into a character with allot more depth to her, with no romance involved might I add (unless you are willing to count T.F. and Graves), there they showed many characteristics which I find you might have like, even though nowadays I do find myself worrying about M.F's mental state, hoping she does not go crazy for revenge, it made her grow and evolve as a character even telling the players not to judge a book by its cover in how we used to imagine her and how she really is on the inside, makes you wonder if Kat and Garen could be like that as well no?

MilfHuntUnitXJ95 votes

The lore is there for people who care, and admire different writing techniques, and enjoyment.

It is a gimmick for those who want it

It isn't there so u can complain about it randomly just because it's there. Get ahold of youreself

XxMaddiexX4 votes

Katarina Riven Oh bb I like how you think~<3

Cinis4 votes

Hm. I really regret that I do not currently have the time to fully respond to this thread, because I do believe that it deserves it. I may return at a later date with more thoughts.

I believe this is where I state my credentials on this topic - I'm a very long time Katariven shipper and I'm mildly active in terms of producing fanfic for them.

I also quite strongly dislike suggestions of Katarina/Garen as a pairing.

That said, I think that people are free to ship whomever they like together (though I do have some boundaries, for example, I do object strongly when people ship Annie with anyone because I suspect it's illegal).

Anyway.

When I first came to League lore, I read Garen's lore and it seemed extremely clear that he was not romantically interested in Katarina. His lore snippet was written in third person omniscient and I took it as authoritatively dismissing the possibility of Katarina/Garen. It straight up says, "A paragon of Demacian ethic, Garen never entertained such allegations, for he knew others couldn't understand." So, setting aside any conclusions we might draw about who these characters are based on their lore, my sense is that lore explicitly denies a romantic connection.

The recent redpost implying otherwise upset me greatly because it seemed to be an attempt to rewrite lore to introduce romance where there wasn't any.

For the same reason, I'd be opposed to any move by Riot to make Katariven canon.

I'm honestly opposed to Riot introducing any pairings that weren't present or implied when they created the character.

Setting aside that it just feels bad when your pairing gets dropkicked into non-canon by The Powers That Be railroading another pairing and I have empathy, I don't think it's an improvement for the state of lore (though, I do cringe when I say "state of lore" since... yeah...).

What made the older lores so very much better than current character lores is that they very quickly communicated the essence of a character while also leaving a lot of room for imagination.

OP brought up the idea that Riven might be asexual. I'd like to expand on this a little - an evolving discussion surrounding asexuality (also aromantic) is that a person does not require another person in a relationship with them to be complete and fulfilled.

When I read Riven's lore, I see nothing to suggest that she's heterosexual, homosexual, asexual, that she's even living in a society that labels and categorizes sexual orientations.

When I read, say, Lee Sin's lore, again, there's no indication of sexual or romantic inclinations.

It doesn't mean that these characters are asexual, it just means that their characters are defined best in terms of things that are not who they're dating.

Still though, Riven and Lee Sin both have a lot of character. It's clear who they are.

Tropes, no matter how overused across media, are not inherently bad.

One reason tropes are prevalent, especially in areas like League of Legends character lores, is that they communicate the feel of a character efficiently. One of the cool things about LoL is that the tropes are coming to us in a lot of different ways - words in lore, visual design elements in characters, the kits of each champion.

Cassiopeia, before the Shurima event, was a giant ball of tropes. She was also extremely well defined.

Cassiopeia after the Shurima event - there was a lot of story going on, I can tell you about her and Sivir and the grandbirb, but I have no idea who she is anymore.

Adding story, like adding romance, doesn't necessarily help us know the characters.

And, really, I'm not looking to Riot for story.

Riot's official canon stories are not any better than some of the decent fanfic out there.

And there's a lot more fanfic than Riot approved canon event story.

What's more, one of the things I used to enjoy about LoL lore was that it provided just enough to go pretty much anywhere and tell any story I wanted. League was a sandbox full of action figures and I could go do whatever I want. Right now, looking at Bard, looking at young Zilean, looking at Mr. Shurima, looking at Gnar - I still have a sandbox, I still have all my old action figures, I just... now I have these kinda human shaped lumps of colored plastic. I can play with them, sure, but not as easily as I can all my other toys.

I don't want the toy manufacturer to come over and take my toys and play with them in front of me, I want spiffy new toys!

One final thought -

While I do accept that it's only heteronormativity that suggests Riven and Katarina are straight, I do not think that implementing a gay relationship using pre-established characters is a good move for League.

As I've hopefully just explained, I don't like the idea of capsizing the boat by re-writing characters, especially in a place like League where the character's lore snippet is what so many of us rely on to be fixed. It was bad enough that that one edit to Riven's lore showed up and no one noticed it for months. I would be pissed as hell if Riot did that against one of my pairings, and it's hypocritical of me to support it happening just because I happen to like the suggested pairing.

What's more, if Riot were to explore being more inclusive (because, being queer, I do feel very much saddened by the lack of representation here and I do feel they could benefit from some diversity. Plus issues of the positive social impact that Riot has the potential to initiate. It took how many years to get a black character? And now we have two? yay. And don't get me started on Ionia... And then, like, so what if it's perceived as pandering to a certain demographic - isn't that what, like, 90% of female splash arts in this game are?), I think that there are much better avenues than Katariven.

Taric exists. And, in his current state, I'm not sure if he's a positive representation or a really joke in poor taste about closeted gay men.

Or, it would be far less controversial to upgrade Diana's pining for Leona from redpost canon to actual canon.

Or just introduce a new character who's gay?

Of course, that raises the issue of whether or not a person's sexual orientation necessarily relevant to their identity, especially given the context here and the general trend of League champions having no stated sexuality (which, unfortunately, reads as straight due to heteronormativity...). But I seriously need to sleep good night.

Edit: If Riot made Katariven canon I would party so hard, like, I can't even. Because I love Katariven.

Marian Hawke4 votes

Ah apologies for falling asleep on my face pretty much into responding to one thing or another.

Anyway, I'd like to bring up a few points.

First thing, I want to make it known that I did not suggest a non-hetero ship 'just to do it' or simply because I preferred that over the other. Riot has apparently made it clear (I say that with no sarcasm or anything of the sort, I legitimately missed several articles and never said that Riot had never lent their support to the LGBTQIA community nor did I claim to know all of their recent ongoings. Life has been busy) that they support the community, but to ignore that such a move would most certainly draw attention is ignorant. Attention begets potential players and I brought up that particular point if only to show a way that the company could financially benefit as well as do more than say 'oh gay is okay!' A positive to compliment and make what I suggest a bit more appealing beyond simply 'just change.'

Secondly, 'change for the sake of change is not a good idea' is a bit outdated as a mindset. The world is _always _changing in both large and small ways. If we had followed that mindset, the world would be a very different place. Segregation would still be an issue (not in anyway saying that rampant racism isn't still a problem,) women would not be allowed to vote and so on. On a minor scale, look at the late 90's to 2000's. Watch any show during those times and you can pick out _exactly _when certain rules and regulations involving cussing on air. Certain things were changed and suddenly everybody on whichever show let lose far more swears than they ever had previous to that. Media would not be the same if we adhered to the same, original rules and so on from when television for entertainment became a prominent thing. Some change is not good, however some things can be made better. Such as breaking the common tropes and refusing to be spoon fed the same, rinsed and reused storylines we see multiple times a day. I'm sorry, however not all of us can be complacent nor are we catered to in the was that certain demographics are (primarily in this case the straight male gamer.)

As far as the particular topic of romance, I only suggested one that was not Katarina and Garen (brought up a few others that I have considered since non-hetero seems to be frowned on) more or less to compensate for the one that was overused. Romance for romance to sate those who decide that they wanted it. However I made a point that suggested that Riot consider delving into other, less common forms of relationships between Katarina and Garen if only to make them somewhat different and unique than most things you see everyday. Human beings are capable of multiple emotions, several of which are extremely powerful (as I stated before, see hate and prejudice or the respect that only a fighter can have for another fighter of equal strength and talent.) Why go for the route most commonly used and often times _expected _simply because the parties in question are of opposing gender. Why do they have to be in love? Can't there be something else in play to add depth to both characters while retaining that link Riot has suggested even before they really knew what they were doing?

Riot has proven with the Bilgewater event (which I never said I didn't enjoy quite a lot nor have I said that it was in any way shape or form a bad or poorly written story) that they are capable of making significant, surprising changes. Changes that even go as far as to alter in game elements. I absolutely adore that.

Twisted Fate and Graves' rivalry was a very prominent thing, probably one of the larger points to their character (especially Graves.) To see it resolved in a believable manner with proper storytelling and peppered with just enough realism was fabulous. I get behind that 100%, though I know that how it was presented was the only reason I could do so. If Riot had not been able to tie it all together so thoroughly, simply stated that 'its this way now' with little reason (such as 'its a forbidden romance because we wanted one accept plz) then I would have been aggravated with the result despite it being the same. If Riot can make the Katarina and Garen romance something plausible then again, as I have stated repeatedly, I could get behind that too. However we lack the story, have BEEN lacking the story for a loooong time. Given only a few tidbits here and there and minor implications with little reason has crafted the feeling of 'it just is because it is' and not 'it is this way because of insert a few dozen reasons as to how it is a viable story telling tool or even romantic possibility.'

It felt hollow and forced and, before the implication that I am a relatively new player bubbles up once more, from the day I got into the lore. It was always that way. I've played for well over four years (though admittedly only the last three or so had I been actually invested in the lore as much as I am) across the span of several accounts lost for various personal reasons but I have always been there invested in the lore despite my inability to actually play the game. Adding easter eggs to add to the implication but no rhyme or reason as to anything else does nothing but deepen this hollow feeling. However, I am fully understanding of the fact that we know little of what the Narrative Teams have in store for us. If they have something viable and worth paying attention to in order to justify it in the works, fantastic!

I honestly only made this thread to encourage people to break out of the box creatively speaking. I more or less want something deeper, something more rich than the common tropes. With the retcon of quite nearly everything lore wise that we knew, Riot has given themselves a whooole lot of wiggle room to plan and truly make something special. I understand that ultimately, the lore and its depth are not priority. It is not a game say, like Dragon Age, where the story and character development is phenomenal in comparison. The priority is players, not readers. Money, not story, a point I feel like is only further weighted by the 'Tech Debt' post recently published. Perhaps it is my fault, being an avid rpg player of sorts, to hope that Riot could create a lore that was half as interesting as that of something like Dragon Age. I know they're two entirely different sort of games, one that profits and capitalizes on story and how much players enjoy that aspect of the game VS the other who capitalizes on game play and getting you just hooked enough to keep clicking 'Play Again' or 'Purchase.'

I am given the impression that Riot is becoming very much so a 'money grabbing' company and if that is not the case, I apologize for that. However given how much emphasis is placed on such things, its hard to believe otherwise. Another thing I admit to is getting carried away by suggesting a non-hetero relationship because of how equality is more or less in the spotlight within the US right now. Suddenly, a whole lot of good things came into existence for those of use who are not straight nor cis and I admit that I was hoping that I could encourage more representation by suggesting such a thing. I know 100% that Katarina and Riven ever becoming a thing is more or less wishful thinking. Riot would never make such prominent and popular characters that already exist so blatantly anything but straight if orientation and relationships were the focus. I mean, to bring up a point stated by a previous poster, look how long it took for them to get a human champion that _wasn't _white.

But again, to restate things, representation (while I wont lie I would jump for joy if ANY form of non-straight representation appeared properly in League) is not my focus. Breaking free of the same ol' is. I've always been vocal about my opinions, most of which are hardly agreed with (right down to my hatred for pineapple things) and to be honest when I made this thread I more or less expected to be ignored. I figured I would be perceived as just 'another gamer whining to whine' really, so I wrote everything out as formally as I could (and will be continuing to do so) and have been doing my best to keep a balance between the change I suggest as well as potentially profitable ideas (such as the game events I mentioned) to make what I have to say seem less 'whiny.' More or less 'I suggest you remove this but you can replace it if you want with this, or try that over there, or perhaps here look at this thing and also here have this kitten.'

I suggested that one thing be taken out and I gave other things to take its place because failure to do so is more or less significantly less mature than I already am attempting to be. I love Riot and I love the lore. I have done nothing but try to be supportive in their choices and have defended them to a lot of angry fans of the lore. I don't want this seen as an attack or anything but encouragement for them to utilize the lack of lore to craft something special, not reused. I apologize if I seem to be condescending while I speak, that was not my intention even in the slightest, though I understand how that could be perceived because a primarily formal tone such as the one I have taken is often taken as such. I have to retain formality more or less for myself, keeping my thoughts in order so that I may properly explain my reasoning.

One final thing I would like to address in regards to the posts before this, is that yes, I can again understand how you think how I am implying that the Katarina and Riven relationship is more or less a fanfiction. However, in a way I admit that it is. It kind of has to be, given the lack of anything that would tie them together. There are so many loose ends in the lore, spread all across Runeterra and the Narrative Teams silence coupled with 'SOON' has created a bit of a story void. Where there is nothing, fans will create something. I only tried to find a way to stay true to character as well as explain how their dynamic could work, unfortunately forced into inventing a story from nothing because of... Well the very prominent 'nothing' that still blankets most champion relationships.

Ramuhdo6 votes

Segregation would still be an issue (not in anyway saying that rampant racism isn't still a problem,) women would not be allowed to vote and so on.

Gonna home in on this argument before I finish the wall of text. Gonna point out that ending segregation and campaigning for women's rights wasn't 'change for the sake of change'. That was 'change for the sake of fairness and equality'. Comparing it in this way is comparing apples to pears; arbitrarily making Katarina and Riven a couple feels more like changing it up for the sake of having something different (and indeed, that's how your post came across) than trying to effect a change in the world for the betterment of a people.

None of the examples you provide are clear cut, "Let's change it up because we can". I'll grant cussing on TV (though that may also be a shift in culture and a sense of 'censoring is too much effort/not real enough'), but the rest hardly seem changes done for the sake of it. Again, taking the Katarina/Garen ship, dismantling it and introducing a Riven/Katarina ship because it'd "grab attention", "be something different" and it's "more interesting" feels more arbitrary than campaigning for women's right to vote because "women should have as much right as men to determine who represents them".

(primarily in this case the straight male gamer.)

Please don't play the privilege card. I know you haven't, but this reads like a complaint that straight male gamers are being specifically catered to. Even if it's true, that's not the fault of straight male gamers. They can't help being a major demographic in the world of gaming. Levying it against them as some argument that they must feel bad about being who they are is unfair and unjust.

Garen x Katarina feels arbitrary because they're of opposing genders

Summarising you there, but I'm totally with you on this. Garen x Katarina is something I'm struggling to justify myself, and I would love to see that relationship more fleshed out than it currently is. There are some teases, some hints, and on the whole it's a "fun little thing" so long as you don't really think about it. The only sword I can see that Garen wants to stab Katarina with is a two foot long solid steel blade of justice right through her skull. That's not romantic, that's horrifying.

Would really love to see Riot take this beyond a rivalry that blossoms into love 'because we say so'.

I mean, to bring up a point stated by a previous poster, look how long it took for them to get a human champion that _wasn't _white.

Agreed here, and even going further. Females and males in League are heavily stereotyped with just about all women being between 20 and 30 looks-wise (no one's going to convince me Kat looks middle-aged) and they're all attractive in some way or the other. Meanwhile, most males are middle-aged, and then have beards, moustaches, are bald or have very long hair. Ezreal is one of few male champions who completely stands out, despite looking like a pretty normal adolescent guy. It's because League doesn't really have adolescent guys.

We could do with a hot looking guy (because I swear, adolescent guys can look hot, too!), even a pretty boy (pretty boy != long hair, Riot!). A young child like Annie is fine, too, though arguably we have Amumumu. Then we could use a middle-aged woman. One past her prime but still solid. Not necessarily an old crone. Champion diversity can also extend to how they look and feel. Sometimes you just want to be "that old one" who shows the younger generation that no, you whippersnappers aren't the only ones relevant in battle.

Instead we get hot young women, rugged middle-aged men and a black person whose ult is a driveby shooting.

We may not agree on specifics, but diversity in lore can only enrichen it. I welcome the day Twisted Fate and Graves discover deep romantic feelings, Diana and Lux go on a date and Bard finally woos that special hot air balloon. I just don't think breaking up Garen/Katarina to replace them with Riven/Katarina is the way to go.

Lord Graves III1 votes

black person whose ult is a driveby shooting.

Thats a cheap shot. Luciens ult is cool as all hell. Also we got another black person who's ult is rewinding time.

It took too long to get a black guy champ, but boiling lucien down to a stereotype just because he uses guns isn't fair.

Ramuhdo1 votes

'twas a joke, my friend. I mean no offence. Lucian is one of those champions I really liked seeing as a newcomer, but don't like playing because I'm too poor at mechanics to do so.

Lord Graves III1 votes

no problemo. Twas in serious critique mode so to speak from my other long winded post. :P

Hell, I think I only posted the first time because I laughed. I did again just now re-reading it.

Sneak Dog1 votes

I'd like to praise you on your mindset. You come here with a touchy topic (touchy is an appropiate word here?) and formed opinion, but with an open mind and willingness to discuss.

Secondly, 'change for the sake of change is not a good idea' is a bit outdated as a mindset...

I'd just like to touch on this part. This would be a valid argument, except that you also suggest taking things out of the existing world. Over time, all things change. However, retconning is forcing a change without letting it happen naturally over time. It kind of defeats the premise of everything always changing, by breaking the timeline.

Don't change an existing champions character/lore for the sake of adjusting his sexuality. Why would you? Because it's done a billion times? Let Riot do their own take on it. Demacia is one big classic, as was Bilgewater. Now, Bilgewater is a variation of a standard pirate city.

I'd also suggest against putting a lot of focus on it. Leagues stories generally don't care, there is not a lot of romance in League, especially not open/obvious romance. Shoehorning a love story in for the sake of supporting various sexualities would in my opinion send the wrong messages.

Trylobyte3 votes

Garen and Kat's constantly-teased relationship works well for me not because it's a comfortable trope but because it tells us something about the cities, too. They're microcosms of the places they live, exemplars of their homes. They fight each other all the time and don't shy away from inflicting actual violence upon each other. But they're more than just enemies. There's just, something, between them. Is it love? Respect? The hidden joy of having found a worthy opponent? They will fight each other for no apparent reason but never actually kill each other, and at times will even stick up for each other if the pressure is great enough (Garen has saved Kat's life at least once in the old lore). And this relationship, through the two people involved in it, paints a larger image of the cities themselves. If they are the exemplars of their cities and they have this hidden, buried feeling towards each other (whatever it is) than do the cities as a whole feel the same way about each other?

While I don't have any issues with a Katariven ship (You're free to ship who you like, just like Blitzcrank ships Rammus x Cactus) I think such a 'ship would be even more contrived than Kat x Garen. Riven is everything Noxus hates. Remember, she's not just a whiny emo anime protagonist. She went from being a strong-willed, powerful, obedient military leader to being a weak-willed deserter who gave up and ran away from her problems the first chance she got. Breaking her sword, a gift from Noxian High Command, is an extra middle finger to Noxus. If Katarina ever met Riven Kat would be legally obligated to detain or kill her, since desertion during wartime is punishable by death pretty much everywhere, and Kat has no real reason not to. This is a woman whose only real act of will was spitting in the face of the Noxian High Command, which Katarina is a member of. That... wouldn't go over well with the enormously proud Katarina.

GreenLore3 votes

If a man gets almost stabbed between his legs,its comedy. If a woman gets almost stabbed between her legs its oversexualization.... Those double standards....

Anyway,I agree that from a neutral standpoint their "love" doesn't make much sense,but you know what?Love doesn't always make sense. Sometimes there are people who should have many reasons to fall in love,but they don't and end up with someone you'd never expect.

You talk about how Garen&Katarina could have much more interesting relationships instead of being starc-crossed lovers,but you forget that these could be done through different characters as well. JarvanIV is going to be king one day,so he will probably marry a woman of a high social standard,like Fiora,Sona or even Lux

The whole noxian revolution can also still happen even without Riven and Katarina being lovers and in fact they've been building up such a conflict already,as there are those who support Swain(Leblanc Darius,Urgot Sion (<-unwillingly) and possibly Draven &Vladimir ) and those who aren't happy with swains reign Katarina ,Talon,Riven and most likely Cassiopeia ).Although we should keep in mind that the ionian invasion happened before swains rule,so its not like riven was really happy with the previous noxus either.

Marian Hawke2 votes

I thank you all for responding, by the way, and doing so in a reasonable manner! I must admit I was concerned that the usual internet 'NOYOUSUCKGODIE' sort would find their way here to provide only trouble and not debate. I appreciate the feedback as well as the kindness, even if I don't agree with several of the posters and visa versa.

Several points were made that I had not considered, many of which I do in fact agree with and can make sense of. Such things do have me reconsidering a few things, though I stand by my initial point that Riot try out new things by removing or replacing that which makes it bland and predictable. They’re already doing so, why not help give them ideas that they perhaps had not considered before?

But again, thank you. This is has actually inadvertently helped me achieve a personal goal, which was to learn more about several different things in order to make my own writing and so on better. What is life if we don’t continue to learn or change? Boring, if I do say so myself!

50000000000000002 votes

I think this is a pretty good idea. Not sure why you're being downvoted... Maybe because of wall of text and lack of tl;dr. I think adding summoner spell icons in the middle helped me read through the wall of text. Thank you for using that!

Zeta1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Marian Hawke,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=yxlw33Ud,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-08-27T00:48:51.909+0000)

Firstly, NOBODY is gay in Runeterra because the people who write it are viewing their stories through that heteronormative lens I mentioned earlier. It’s very likely that nobody simply considered that people in the game were potentially not straight.

Actually, we've had WordOfGay stated by Riot devs on Diana. But yeah - it's not officially reflected in any published canon lore.

Acaim1 votes

The thing is that it would be cool if Kat x Garen just wasn't forced when they have possibility. Gnar dino splash, TahmKench quotes, Garen following in skins like bilgewater, steel legion to counter high command etc. I know easter eggs are cool, but also may piss someone off. Best solution for any ships (maybe exept super canon like ashe with tryn ) They should have been suggested and left to live with it's own life. Like with Leona and Diana . There is no such problem, cos both of them can be paired with Pantheon and none of that is canon, only otp, so people are less likely to scratch your eyes out just because you dont respect cannon ( and yes, I have met such people, madshippers. It was enough to even suggest that you dislike ship/ ship with other to get their anger on you, and hear countless insults. In Diana/Leo, where it's not canon, BUT it is suggested, I have never met with such a thing, because people treat it like otp not canon, and they respect other )

Vistha Kai1 votes

Fiora/Garen? Ugh

Produce more Crownguards?

Lux/Garen OTP.

NemeBro2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=yxlw33Ud,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2015-08-27T08:40:30.067+0000)

Fiora/Garen? Ugh

Lux/Garen OTP.

This guy knows what's up.

Lord Graves III1 votes

TLDR: I prefer Garen liking Kat, but Kat seeing a women is perfectly acceptable. I do not think that the women is Riven. Also, I'm a Garen fan and am offended at the character assassination of everyone in your post who wasn't Katarina.

I have a few misgivings about your post. Largely and most primarily is the lack of understanding towards the other champions in league. It is crystal clear that you have a deep abiding love of the champion Katarina. The issue is that it is painfully obvious that you do not have this same love and respect for the other characters.

You have some like Karma who may insist that they do nothing, that they rebuild and that peace is ultimately the answer. However you have those like Irelia and Yasuo filled with rage and hatred who think that the only way to ensure that peace survives is to remove those who will always threaten it by attacking them while they attack themselves. Cue second event involving an Ionian Civil War, if you so choose.

Yasuo is in exile. He holds no clout in Ionia. He can no more argue in Ionia for war than Riven could in Noxus for peace. Also, Karma's character arc was finding an ability to accept violence for Ionia's ends. "Never again will I sit idle." "Peace. No matter the cost I'll admit this is nitpicking, but it is an example of the mindset that I feel is the issue with your argument.

On the one hand, I would not necessarily call RivenxKat any more or less valid than GarenXKat. Riven is a deeply damaged individual, limiting emotional intimicy in her current state. From what I understand it is actually part of her appeal. Meanwhile, retconning in that Kat and Riven dated before the Ionia conflict (and Riven losing it) would go a fairly large way to tying everyone in Noxus too close together. It in turn links riven to Cass and Talon and I feel would really put a dent in the whole Exile thing she has going.

Not to mention it cuts a narrative tie between Noxus and Demacia. I personally liked the obscure subplot where leblanc impersonated J4 and Swain likely killed/dissappeared Kats dad.

Part of the reason GarenXKat even started as a ship was due to their mutual nature as paragons of their societies. While it does result in slander to imply that either would sacrafice their position for a position on the other's genitals; I'd argue this is part of what makes it work. At least from the side of a garen fan.

Garen Garen is a paragon of Demacia. But he can't be anything else. Ever. People always want what they cannot ever have, and while I never really got the impression Kat likes Garen, I can totally see the appeal from Garen's point of view. Yeah it wouldn't work out....thats not gonna stop Garen from wanting it. I doubt he is smart enough to fully put something like that aside. I totally get it. Also, I don't really see Garen "being married off" when his position as a symbol and weapon is too valuable. Finally, Garen isn't particularly bright. He just isn't. "WHAT WE DO IS RIGHT!" The idea that Garen might secretly want to throw it all away and run away with the hot redheaded girl he has a crush on really makes him compelling to me. The idea that Garen would attack Katarina with a greatsword while also harboring feelings for her makes sense when we accept that most champions (and certainly both Garen and Kat....and Riven. And Yasuo. ) are violent people well accustomed to battle. Garen's place as Demacia's Strength is only as strong as his own will. And the unfortunate rotten kernal at the core of Demacian culture is that they aspire to inhuman standards that people just cant meet. The thought of Garen doing the Demacia thing because he has to while constantly burying his own desire to leave that life, while confronting his own guilt over these desires? Then working them out on the battlefield? FOR THE CAUSE Its sorta like the superman appeal. The guy has a lot of weight on his shoulders. Unlike Superman, Garen is just a man. A strong man with conviction, and not enough brains to realize the full situation. I like that about Garen. He might have found Mad Love. That terrible self destructive kind of love you cant turn away from. Harly QuinnXJoker love. Mad Love. The best kind.

Also, marrying Fiora off to Garen would be a crime. I'd sooner ship FioraXJarvan. The idea of Fiora being willing to marry zat spinning buffoon 'as got to 'ze a joke. I can't see her dating someone so dumb, and I can't see her family marrying her off really. Not when shes the one who kicks all of the ass. Who is gonna make her marry someone? Her dad? Fiora aint got time for dating. She has duels to win. That said I now can totally see Fiora sleeping with Garen out of bordom and than being frustrated that he keeps calling her.

That got kind of long winded. Also I'm intoxicated. Did that make any sense? I greatly respect your love of this fiction. Indeed it warms my heart. Though it seems to me you really want RivenXKat to be a thing, and it feels like your case was built to that end, rather than exploring the characters and coming to that conclusion organically.

Ramuhdo1 votes

Who is gonna make her marry someone? Her dad?

Unless the lore changed while I wasn't looking, Fiora defeated her dad in single combat and became the Head of her House. So no, not even her dad would be able to marry her off, she's the big chief who calls the shots. You might make the argument that Fiora could be pressured by pee-- I mean, by her lessers, but this is Fiora we're talking about. She'd probably declare she'll only marry a man who can best her in single combat.

And Garen? He's strong, but he just swings his sword around savagely and kills enemies that way. Crude effort is no match for true skill. I don't think Fiora could ever accept a husband who just swings his sword around stupidly and wins by raw strength than a true display of skill.

Don't touch my Fiora. ;_;

Sneak Dog1 votes

I think it's part of Garens character. He seems to be Demacia incarnate, fighting happily for Demacia. Him being in love with Katarina questions this, puts him in an awkward position and shows us really who Garen is (well, will show). The paradox is the interesting part.

Removing this paradox might have significant implications for Garens character. I'm against putting in a relation or removing an existing one just for the sake of it.

Before you say, everything changes. That includes time passing. It does not apply for retcons unless there's time-travelling involved.

Sorry for not going too in-depth.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

So first of all, I suggest you change the tone of your post. It's far too combative to both Riot and the fans who at least don't perfectly agree with you. That's no reason to insult them.

Having said that, I'm not sure how big romance is in League of Legends. Sure there have been relationships, and teasing, but most of them have never been big stories compared to other games. All of them have been straight, but I'm not sure how forced they've been on people, or more accurately, they end.

A lot of fans are fine with gay characters. Mortal Kombat X introduced their first gay character, who has avoided the trap of being defined only by his orientation. He's a complete character. I think you're finding disagreement with people not for disliking gay relationships, but for potentially only wanting them just to have them. Look at TF and Graves. If Riot were to say that these two were in a relationship, virtually nothing from their story would be changed. It might even add to it. You don't even need to retcon TF and Eve because TF could be Bi.

That's another issue I have. We have over 100 different champions, I don't think all of them need to be just straight or gay. There should be straight and gay only characters, but there's plenty of room for bi, pan, asexual, and all the other orientations. I don't understand why making Garen date Katarina in either the past, present, or future, means that she can't date Riven, or any other champion. If Riven doesn't date Katarina, that doesn't mean she can't have an attraction towards her. She can have a relationship with Irelia, Akali, Fiora even. The same reasons why you're against Garen and Kat, you can use as a story for Fiora and Riven.

ULTRAF0RCE1 votes

Just a question have you read the black aegis comics, its kind of annoying in the way that the creator won't finish it without getting paid but I think it at the very least shows an interesting portrayal of kat and her relationship with others. For the Lux disliking Fiora there are a few quite likely reasons for that including Fiora's stupid care for honour which Lux has no reason to respect even if she is demacian, also Fiora's cocky attitude which is the most likely one.

Marian Hawke1 votes

To those who may actually be interested in responses I have to your posts, I'll be getting to those hopefully tonight but considering my work schedule plus more than a few personal things that have come up, there's a good chance that I may or may not have the time or energy anytime soon to continue the discussion.

Just a small heads up so that I don't give the impression that I've simply abandoned the post because of the larger percentage of those against my opinion. I'm actually quite enjoying this debate of sorts!

However to those who are continuously bringing specific ships into things, I encourage you to reread some of my last posts. My focus here is creativity, something I realize that I've been failing to convey properly especially with suggestions I've made. Entirely my bad lol

But again, I thank those who are responding in a polite manner! It means a lot!

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